HISTORICAL RECORD: Antaun Jamison was considered better than Pau in 2008

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14942258]Dbl post cause the site sucks[/QUOTE]

Lebron and Kobe ain't paying the bills like they used to lol.

[QUOTE=rawimpact;14942253]So what? You're playing hypotheticals whereas im telling you what actually occurred.

The reason why Antawn isn't mentioned is because he had no real post-season success. His prime was spent with someone who stole his spotlight, arenas... often times in negative ways.[/QUOTE]

I'm confused....cause neither did Pau? :confusedshrug:

I guess cause I'm confused by the hate on the comparison. Its actually a pretty good one. They both were putting up all-star numbers for decent teams that basically made it to the playoffs but lost pretty convincingly in the playoffs, then for a 1 year they kept putting up those numbers but there teams were terrible, and then the next year that trend continued until the all-star break where they got traded to the no. 1 seed of the conference. Pau flourished while Antawn became an afterthought. The main difference is that Jamison is a few years older than Pau, sure, but its just a coincidence that his drop-off starts while playing with Cleveland? It could also just be that expecting other star players to play Lebron-ball isn't conducive to their success and as a result as much to overall team success :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=guy;14942789]I'm confused....cause neither did Pau? :confusedshrug:

I guess cause I'm confused by the hate on the comparison. Its actually a pretty good one. They both were putting up all-star numbers for decent teams that basically made it to the playoffs but lost pretty convincingly in the playoffs, then for a 1 year they kept putting up those numbers but there teams were terrible, and then the next year that trend continued until the all-star break where they got traded to the no. 1 seed of the conference. Pau flourished while Antawn became an afterthought. The main difference is that Jamison is a few years older than Pau, sure, but its just a coincidence that his drop-off starts while playing with Cleveland? It could also just be that expecting other star players to play Lebron-ball isn't conducive to their success and as a result as much to overall team success :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

I'm not talking about the comparison up until 08. I'm addressing why Antawn doesn't get mentioned often.

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[indent][B]2007 1st Round

Jamison..... 32 on 48%
Lebron....... 28 on 42%[/B][/indent]


[SIZE=3]Jamison was a rare 20k scorer that outplayed Lebron in a head-to-head matchup.. So it's pretty nice to have a better scorer than Pippen as your THIRD option in 2010, while having better defensive ranking than the 1st three-peat Bulls..

The Cavs had better defensive ranking even in 2007, which was long before Lebron was considered a great defender, so he simply had more defensive help than the 1st three-peat Bulls.[/SIZE]

[QUOTE=3ba11;14942811].
[indent][B]2007 1st Round

Jamison..... 32 on 48%
Lebron....... 28 on 42%[/B][/indent]


[SIZE=3]Jamison was a rare 20k scorer that outplayed Lebron in a head-to-head matchup.. [B]So it's pretty nice to have a better scorer than Pippen as your THIRD option in 2010[/B], while having better defensive ranking than the 1st three-peat Bulls..

The Cavs had better defensive ranking even in 2007, which was long before Lebron was considered a great defender, so he simply had more defensive help than the 1st three-peat Bulls.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Why? If you have great scorer(s) at the top wouldn't it be cool to have your 3rd option be someone that can do other things?

Jamison was a Tobias Harris level player, not a Pau Gasol or Scottie Pippen.

RIGHT?!

[QUOTE=guy;14942789]I'm confused....cause neither did Pau? :confusedshrug:

I guess cause I'm confused by the hate on the comparison. Its actually a pretty good one. They both were putting up all-star numbers for decent teams that basically made it to the playoffs but lost pretty convincingly in the playoffs, then for a 1 year they kept putting up those numbers but there teams were terrible, and then the next year that trend continued until the all-star break where they got traded to the no. 1 seed of the conference. Pau flourished while Antawn became an afterthought. The main difference is that Jamison is a few years older than Pau, sure, but its just a coincidence that his drop-off starts while playing with Cleveland? It could also just be that expecting other star players to play Lebron-ball isn't conducive to their success and as a result as much to overall team success :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]


Yea, I brought up the fact that Wizards Jamison averaged 23/10/2 in the playoffs and had the same exact amount of playoff success as Memphis Pau... and I was called an "embarrassment" for bringing that up.

Goes to show some people just don't like the truth. The saying [I]"the truth hurts"[/I] had to have come from somewhere I guess.

Either way, Jamison was a legit player. Is there a list of bums who have averaged 30+ ppg in a playoff series.

I'd like to see that list.

More lies from 3ball as usual

James avg. 28pts on 43% for a series sweep.

[QUOTE=tpols;14942827]Yea, I brought up the fact that Wizards Jamison averaged 23/10/2 in the playoffs and had the same exact amount of playoff success as Memphis Pau... and I was called an "embarrassment" for bringing that up.

Goes to show some people just don't like the truth. The saying [I]"the truth hurts"[/I] had to have come from somewhere I guess.

Either way, Jamison was a legit player. Is there a list of bums who have averaged 30+ ppg in a playoff series.

I'd like to see that list.[/QUOTE]

Yea..at his peak he was a [I]nice[/I] player. Not really anything more.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14942822]Why? If you have great scorer(s) at the top wouldn't it be cool to have your 3rd option be someone that can do other things?

Jamison was a Tobias Harris level player, not a Pau Gasol or Scottie Pippen.

RIGHT?![/QUOTE]


There's no such thing as a team with 2 great scorers at the top that DIDN'T do other things... So your entire perception of the game is wrong.

History shows that the 2007 Cavs were the #4 defense and this was when Lebron wasn't considered a great defender yet (no all-defense until 09'), so the 06-10' Cavs had more defensive help and rankings than the 1st three-peat Bulls - this INCLUDES jamison, who locked down Lebron to 42% in the 07' Playoffs, while averaging 10 RPG.. The frontcourt of Shaq, Zydrunas, Varejao plus a 20k scorer like Jamison is easily better than anything Jordan ever had..

In addition to Jamison being a better scorer than Pippen and the Cavs having better rebounding and defensive ranking than the 1st three-peat Bulls, the combo of Jamison and Mo represented additional scoring options (3rd scoring options) that Jordan never had at any point in his career.. The 2006-2010 Cavs simply had more scoring options and better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls - better rosters and depth from top to bottom.

Yes, your arguments in this thread are frankly shameless and embarrassing, and are ones you would never make if not for players involved in your endless agenda. Let's take a look at these playoff series you keep referencing.

2006: 19/7/3 on 16.5 FGA and 52%TS in a first round loss. Truly amazing stuff, the kind of series we should hype 20 years later.

2008: 17/12/1 on 16 FGA and 43%TS in a first round loss. The kind of series HOF'ers could only hope to have.

And for the series everyone keeps creaming their pants about, 32 ppg on 26 FGA with more turnovers than assists, steals or blocks while getting swept in the first round.

Just for perspective, Dillon Brooks once averaged 26 ppg on 60%TS in a playoff series, I'm confident I could find numerous examples of guys putting up abnormal production for one playoff series. Using 4-6 game sample sizes like they mean anything in the grand scheme of things, ESP ones resulting in first round losses, is at best disingenuous and at worst moronic.

Where Pau separated himself and showed he was clearly a better player was on the international stage. I think people are starting to understand more now the "brand of ball" (to put it in OPs terms) really lends itself to the more skilled and smarter basketball players, and Pau was incredible there.

People always talk about 2008 and rightfully so, he would have been the MVP if Spain had won the last game. And of course he was great again in 2012.

But even before that he was amazing. They got kind of screwed in 04 by getting the United States in the first round of knockouts, but they undefeated beating both Argentina and Italy in the group stages and Pau overall had a very strong case as being the best player in that tournament. No one remembers now because they were out early but he averaged 22/7 with 3 blocks and even had 29 in that loss the US. That was obviously before Spain had ascended overall as a squad but he carried.

Also in FIBA 2006 they beat Argentina and Greece to win Gold, and he had 22/9 throughout the tournament winning MVP.

If you're trying to win a championship it's clear who the more useful guy is.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14942839]Yes, your arguments in this thread are frankly shameless and embarrassing, and are ones you would never make if not for players involved in your endless agenda. Let's take a look at these playoff series you keep referencing.

2006: 19/7/3 on 16.5 FGA and 52%TS in a first round loss. Truly amazing stuff, the kind of series we should hype 20 years later.

2008: 17/12/1 on 16 FGA and 43%TS in a first round loss. The kind of series HOF'ers could only hope to have.

And for the series everyone keeps creaming their pants about, 32 ppg on 26 FGA with more turnovers than assists, steals or blocks while getting swept in the first round.

Just for perspective, Dillon Brooks once averaged 26 ppg on 60%TS in a playoff series, I'm confident I could find numerous examples of guys putting up abnormal production for one playoff series. Using 4-6 game sample sizes like they mean anything in the grand scheme of things, ESP ones resulting in first round losses, is at best disingenuous and at worst moronic.[/QUOTE]

Jamison averaged 23/10/2 across 3 series in his prime vs Cleveland. Not one playoff series. 3 of them.

But I'm still interested in the list of players who have averaged 30+ ppg in a playoff series. I'd imagine they're probably all HOFers.

Let's see one name that isn't and I will go watch his highlights and he'll probably be amazing.

Both Pau and Jamison are mostly lottery or 1st Round bums

The difference is that Pau joined Kobe and was elevated to champion and perennial All-NBA, while Jamison was cratered by bron-ball just like Love, Bosh or Kuzma.. It was a big disappointment for Cavs fans because Jamison was a coveted acquisition that was chosen OVER amare stoudamire..

In hindsight, Lebron does poorly with certain types of skilled bigs and needs super-athletes like AD to finish off the PNR.. Amare fit this mold better than Jamison, but it's Lebron's fault for only being PNR player and lacking the expert jumpshooting skill to play off bigs within the in-out format that Pau, Shaq, Love or Bosh were more suited for.. Again, notice how Kobe fits with in-out bigs like Pau or Shaq because he has the expert jumpshooting skill to play off teammates - his goat scoring diversity fit with everyone and all systems, and these great fits elevated teammates so he could win with less.. Kobe could've played a combination of PNR and in-out with Jamison so that Jamison could be the same 22/10 player that he right before joining Lebron.

Kobe was lottery and first round bum the 3yrs without Shaq and before Pau.

That's why he publicly demanded a trade.

[QUOTE=tpols;14942849]Jamison averaged 23/10/2 across 3 series in his prime vs Cleveland. Not one playoff series. 3 of them.

But I'm still interested in the list of players who have averaged 30+ ppg in a playoff series. I'd imagine they're probably all HOFers.

Let's see one name that isn't and I will go watch his highlights and he'll probably be amazing.[/QUOTE]

HOF isn't based on just NBA stats.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14942850]Both Pau and Jamison are mostly lottery or 1st Round bums

The difference is that Pau joined Kobe and was elevated to champion and perennial All-NBA, while Jamison was cratered by bron-ball just like Love, Bosh or Kuzma.. It was a big disappointment for Cavs fans because Jamison was a coveted acquisition that was chosen OVER amare stoudamire..

In hindsight, Lebron does poorly with certain types of skilled bigs and needs super-athletes like AD to finish off the PNR.. Amare fit this mold better than Jamison, but it's Lebron's fault for only being PNR player and lacking the expert jumpshooting skill to play off bigs within the in-out format that Pau, Shaq, Love or Bosh were more suited for.. Again, notice how Kobe fits with in-out bigs like Pau or Shaq because he has the expert jumpshooting skill to play off teammates - his goat scoring diversity fit with everyone and all systems, and these great fits elevated teammates so he could win with less.. Kobe could've played a combination of PNR and in-out with Jamison so that Jamison could be the same 22/10 player that he right before joining Lebron.[/QUOTE]

Kobe never won with less and colluded from the jump

He lost miserably with more.. losing with 2 former MVPs on 2 separate occasions.

Why were the 2013 Lakers a borderline lottery team with peak Dwight coming off 3x DPOYs and 5 straight top 5 MVPs at 27? The most accomplished player either Kobe or LeBron ever played with. (Outside Shaq)

Why did Kobe fail with Dwight/Pau/Nash/Jamison?

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14942861]Kobe was lottery and first round bum the 3yrs without Shaq and before Pau.

That's why he publicly demanded a trade.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, whenever Kobe had similar rosters to LeBrons Cavs he was lottery and demanded out. Total cancer.

[QUOTE=tpols;14942849][B]Jamison averaged 23/10/2 across 3 series in his prime vs Cleveland. Not one playoff series. 3 of them.[/B]

But I'm still interested in the list of players who have averaged 30+ ppg in a playoff series. I'd imagine they're probably all HOFers.

Let's see one name that isn't and I will go watch his highlights and he'll probably be amazing.[/QUOTE]

Meh. A little misleading due to the clear outlier.

He played in 9 playoff series in his career (2-7) and that was the only one he ever even scored 20 in.

[QUOTE=tpols;14942849][B]Jamison averaged 23/10/2 across 3 series in his prime vs Cleveland. Not one playoff series. 3 of them.[/B]

But I'm still interested in the list of players who have averaged 30+ ppg in a playoff series. I'd imagine they're probably all HOFers.

Let's see one name that isn't and I will go watch his highlights and he'll probably be amazing.[/QUOTE]

Meh. A little misleading due to the clear outlier.

He played in 9 playoff series in his career (2-7) and that was the only one he ever even scored 20 in.

And since we're ignoring defense and everything else I won't mention that. But you of course know he was [I]bad[/I] on the defensive end and offered nothing as a playmaker.

[QUOTE=tpols;14942849]Jamison averaged 23/10/2 across 3 series in his prime vs Cleveland. Not one playoff series. 3 of them.

But I'm still interested in the list of players who have averaged 30+ ppg in a playoff series. I'd imagine they're probably all HOFers.

Let's see one name that isn't and I will go watch his highlights and he'll probably be amazing.[/QUOTE]
Ronaldo Blackman, Terry Cummings & John Wall (assuming he doesn't make it) all did it, then you have guys like Mark Aguirre & Kiki Vandeweghe who barely missed. And ironically, with the exception of Blackman (who needed 23) none of those guys needed even close to 26 shots per game to reach that number. Jamison was putting up '06 Kobe level volume to reach those numbers, I wonder how many non HOF's ever had the greenlight to do that while getting swept in the first round.

[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;14942870]Kobe never won with less and colluded from the jump

He lost miserably with more.. losing with 2 former MVPs on 2 separate occasions.

Why were the 2013 Lakers a borderline lottery team with peak Dwight coming off 3x DPOYs and 5 straight top 5 MVPs at 27? The most accomplished player either Kobe or LeBron ever played with. (Outside Shaq)

Why did Kobe fail with Dwight/Pau/Nash/Jamison?[/QUOTE]


Kobe won 3 chips in 3 years, while Curry won 3 in 4, or Duncan won 3 in 5, so it's clear that expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs can produce "unbeatable" teams that mostly win for stretches, while Lebron-ball cannot produce unbeatable teams and mostly loses regardless of cast.. (1/4 with Love, AD or Wade, except the Allen miracle)...

So it's a team ceiling issue (producing better teams) - Kobe is superior to Lebron because his skillset allows higher team ceilings and winning with less (winning with a sidekick that was worse than Bosh or Love).

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14942879]Ronaldo Blackman, Terry Cummings & John Wall (assuming he doesn't make it) all did it, then you have guys like Mark Aguirre & Kiki Vandeweghe who barely missed. And ironically, with the exception of Blackman (who needed 23) none of those guys needed even close to 26 shots per game to reach that number. Jamison was putting up '06 Kobe level volume to reach those numbers, [B]I wonder how many non HOF's ever had the greenlight to do that while getting swept in the first round[/B].[/QUOTE]

This is the main thing. People like to use strange or even freak circumstances to their advantage.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14942889]Kobe won 3 chips in 3 years, while Curry won 3 in 4, or Duncan won 3 in 5, so it's clear that expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs can produce "unbeatable" teams that mostly win for stretches, while Lebron-ball cannot produce unbeatable teams and mostly loses regardless of cast.. (1/4 with Love, AD or Wade, except the Allen miracle)...

So it's a team ceiling issue (producing better teams) - Kobe is superior to Lebron because his skillset allows higher team ceilings and winning with less (winning with a sidekick that was worse than Bosh or Love).[/QUOTE]
LeBron won 3 in 5 years, and unlike those first two chumps, won FMVP every time while those two barely got a FMVP vote.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14942889]Kobe won 3 chips in 3 years, while Curry won 3 in 4, or Duncan won 3 in 5, so it's clear that expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs can produce "unbeatable" teams that mostly win for stretches, while Lebron-ball cannot produce unbeatable teams and mostly loses regardless of cast.. (1/4 with Love, AD or Wade, except the Allen miracle)...

So it's a team ceiling issue (producing better teams) - Kobe is superior to Lebron because his skillset allows higher team ceilings and winning with less (winning with a sidekick that was worse than Bosh or Love).[/QUOTE]

So you've got nothing

Kobe with Dwight/Pau = near lottery

So Kobe doesn't fit well with anyone and you're just lying. Why?

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14942892]LeBron won 3 in 5 years, and unlike those first two chumps, won FMVP every time while those two barely got a FMVP vote.[/QUOTE]

:lol

Dude has been self-ethering himself the entire thread

[QUOTE=tpols;14942827]Yea, I brought up the fact that Wizards Jamison averaged 23/10/2 in the playoffs and had the same exact amount of playoff success as Memphis Pau... and I was called an "embarrassment" for bringing that up.

Goes to show some people just don't like the truth. The saying [I]"the truth hurts"[/I] had to have come from somewhere I guess.

Either way, Jamison was a legit player. Is there a list of bums who have averaged 30+ ppg in a playoff series.

I'd like to see that list.[/QUOTE]

Uhh no... the embarrassment is you picking what years player X is better than Player Y. Maybe in 08 we were talking about how much better Jamison was to Pau... but 1. you werent here and 2. as I mentioned, one peaked and the other was yet to hit the climax. and 3. Pau played 11 years after and Antawn 6 years after 2008.

When we look at players in hindsight, no one trolling looks at just a select set of years and completely ignores another set, especially when one of those players has yet to reach the peak of their careers.

That's like comparing 2003 Lebron to 2003 Jermaine Oneal... and saying no one brings up Jermaine Oneal up when he was averaging 21-10 on a team that finished with 60+ wins... Two players on complete different trajectories...

.
[Indent]
2008 JAMISON............ #14 for MVP........ 2x all-star
2008 PAU.................... nothing.............. 1x all-star

2005 ZYDRUNAS.......... 2x all-star
2008 PAU.................... 1x all-star


* Jamison has 20k points and outplayed Lebron HU in 07' 1st Round with 32/10 on 48% compared to 28/8 on 43% for Lebron.[/Indent]



[u]THREAD CLIFFS[/u] [b](why Kobe > Lebron)[/B]


Kobe produced higher team ceilings/dynasties and won with less, such as a sidekick that was worse than Jamison, Bosh or Love... He produced better teams and won with less because his expert jumpshooting skill produced better ball movement and chemistry than Lebron's ball-dominance and imposition of spot-up roles... Kobe's game produced high ball movement teams that compare to the 90's Bulls and also the recent Spurs, Warriors, and Nuggets juggernauts that beat Lebron's ball-dominant teams.

Kobe also out-performed Lebron against the exact same opponents, such as the 08' Celtics, 10' Celtics, 11' Mavs, or 07/08' Spurs, and also dominated the Spurs in 01', 02', 03' or 08', while Lebron was worst-ever in 07' and 14'.