Duncan( 97-99) vs Wemby (23-25) two years in...who you got?

[QUOTE=3ba11;14967275]Curry proved me wrong because I had a blind spot of the 3ball, but what does Wemby have to prove me wrong??

Nothing... It's simply suboptimal to have a guy that tall play guard and be 1st option - he'll NEVER WIN, unless he stacks the deck like Lebron...

You'll see... You just don't understand how basketball works and get your information from journalism majors, which makes your understanding even worse... Otoh, I had the insight on 3-pointers 10 years ago and people are finally catching up and realizing today's game isn't really basketball and sucks


[/QUOTE]

Your lack of understanding for how basketball works is what caused the original take, not that Curry proved you wrong. Not to mention that calling Curry a top 10 player while also calling the current era inferior is an inherent conflict unto itself.

For the record, I've said multiple times that I think he shoots too many 3's. I think a 7'4 version of how Chris Bosh played offensively in Toronto would be optimal for him, albeit with much greater physical tools and a higher ceiling.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14967276]He's a 7'5" guy that tries to be a guard... This cannot win because literally ALL his peers shoot and dribble better than him - they do what he does BETTER, so he's just for entertainment and not someone that can win... otoh, Duncan entered the league as the best post player in the game (massive edge over peers), so he won immediately without that much help.[/QUOTE]

I just need a category. And who would be his peers in this case?

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14967277]Your lack of understanding is what caused the original take, not that Curry proved you wrong.

For the record, I've said multiple times that I think he shoots too many 3's. I think a 7'4 version of how Chris Bosh played offensively in Toronto would be optimal for him, albeit with much greater physical tools and a higher ceiling.[/QUOTE]
Yep, him being proven wrong wasn't the issue, it was that he genuinely had no idea what he was talking about :lol He took an absolutely brutal beating in that thread, even from posters who support him like tpols

[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493318-Curry-is-the-most-overrated-player-in-history&p=14582825&viewfull=1#post14582825"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493318-Curry-is-the-most-overrated-player-in-history&p=14582825&viewfull=1#post14582825[/URL]

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14967279]Yep, him being proven wrong wasn't the issue, it was that he genuinely had no idea what he was talking about :lol He took an absolutely brutal beating in that thread, even from posters who support him like tpols

[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493318-Curry-is-the-most-overrated-player-in-history&p=14582825&viewfull=1#post14582825"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493318-Curry-is-the-most-overrated-player-in-history&p=14582825&viewfull=1#post14582825[/URL][/QUOTE]

Exactly. He's done everything to underplay that his original take was one of the worst opinions ever written on this board. That he 'came around' on it is neither here or there. And the funny thing is, he changed his mind during the off-season.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14967277]Your lack of understanding is what caused the original take, not that Curry proved you wrong.

For the record, I've said multiple times that I think he shoots too many 3's. I think a 7'4 version of how Chris Bosh played offensively in Toronto would be optimal for him, albeit with much greater physical tools and a higher ceiling.[/QUOTE]


I don't watch basketball, so I missed the 3-point revolution, but once I was up to speed on threes, everything was back to normal - I predict everything right.

Otoh, you guys don't understand how basketball works... When someone says they got "hot" - you have no idea what they're talking about... You don't know what people mean when they say someone is a "dog"... You don't value or understand ball movement, and why it's the best brand of ball.. This is because you've never stood around twiddling your thumbs while some dumb ball-dominator takes forever to make their move.. (you never played).

Again, you don't understand basketball, so you don't understand how suboptimal Wemby's game is - he will need ridiculous help to even contend, let alone win... [I]I guarantee that Popovich knows that he can't win with Wemby, but he's just going along with it because the NBA is just entertainment now anyway (WWE style)[/I]..

no one cares about winning anymore or thinks it reflects basketball ability... Things have completely devolved to this level, and it's due to Lebron's "decision", which opened the Overton Window of less competitiveness, such aa an easy-scoring format, load management, colluding with opponents, or the "rings don't matter" philosophy...

On the flip side though, does anybody think '98 or '99 Duncan would lead this Spurs team in this current western conference to a title?

Like I'm looking at the Spurs roster and after Wemby the leading scorers are Julian champagnie, Kelton Johnson, and Stephon Castle.

:biggums:

David Robinson was All NBA in the late 90s and had dominant top 5 superstar metrics in 1999. And they faced the Ewing-less 8 seed Knicks in the NBA Finals.

We have to apply some context here when talking about the team result in there respective cases.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14967281]I don't watch basketball, so I missed the 3-point revolution, but once I was up to speed on threes, everything was back to normal - I predict everything right.

Otoh, you guys don't understand how basketball works... When someone says they got "hot" - you have no idea what they're talking about... You don't know what people mean when they say someone is a "dog"... You don't value or understand ball movement, and why it's the best brand of ball.. This is because you've never stood around twiddling your thumbs while some dumb ball-dominator takes forever to make their move.. (you never played).

Again, you don't understand basketball, so you don't understand how suboptimal Wemby's game is - he will need ridiculous help to even contend, let alone win... [I]I guarantee that Popovich knows that he can't win with Wemby, but he's just going along with it because the NBA is just entertainment now anyway (WWE style)[/I]..

no one cares about winning anymore or thinks it reflects basketball ability... Things have completely devolved to this level, and it's due to Lebron's "decision", which opened the Overton Window of less competitiveness, such aa an easy-scoring format or load management..[/QUOTE]

13,000 posts on a sport you admit you haven't watched in a decade makes you an uninformed idiot. None of your copy and paste shit changes that and even having the gall to utter such a dumb opinion about Curry in the first place. If I were you I wouldn't tell anyone you played at whatever level you claim to have played at.

[QUOTE=tpols;14967282]On the flip side though, does anybody think '98 or '99 Duncan would lead this Spurs team in this current western conference to a title?

Like I'm looking at the Spurs roster and after Wemby the leading scorers are Julian champagnie, Kelton Johnson, and Stephon Castle.

:biggums:

David Robinson was All NBA in the late 90s and had dominant top 5 superstar metrics in 1999. And they faced the Ewing-less 8 seed Knicks in the NBA Finals.

We have to apply some context here when talking about the team result in there respective cases.[/QUOTE]


All the best players in today's game are bigs like Embiid, Jokic or Giannis, so Duncan would be no different.. Duncan entered the league as the best post player in the game, and that would be no different today.

The reason that great bigs can run roughshod in today's game and populate the top 3 spots in the league is due to the spacing and open paint, which allows big more room to operate... full stop

[QUOTE=tpols;14967282]On the flip side though, does anybody think '98 or '99 Duncan would lead this Spurs team in this current western conference to a title?

Like I'm looking at the Spurs roster and after Wemby the leading scorers are Julian champagnie, Kelton Johnson, and Stephon Castle.

:biggums:

David Robinson was All NBA in the late 90s and had dominant top 5 superstar metrics in 1999. And they faced the Ewing-less 8 seed Knicks in the NBA Finals.

We have to apply some context here when talking about the team result in there respective cases.[/QUOTE]

THANK YOU. That's literally why I said the 'championship argument' doesn't work in this comparison, but it's used as a gotcha.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14967285]THANK YOU. That's literally why I said the 'championship argument' doesn't work in this comparison, but it's used as a gotcha.[/QUOTE]


Duncan entered the league as the best at the most important skill (post), while Wemby entered the league without being top 50 in any skill except blocks... That's why Duncan won right away and Wemby will be a perennial loser.. Wemby will never be the best at any skill in the NBA except blocks, so he will always trail his more skilled peers... I'm sure the NBA will manufacture his team like they did Lebron's, so he can win some chips... But he lacks the fundamentals to build great chemistry and team on his own.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14967284]All the best players in today's game are bigs like Embiid, Jokic or Giannis, so Duncan would be no different.. Duncan entered the league as the best post player in the game, and that would be no different today.

The reason that great bigs can run roughshod in today's game and populate the top 3 spots in the league is due to the spacing and open paint, which allows big more room to operate... full stop[/QUOTE]


:pimp:

[QUOTE=3ba11;14967289]:pimp:[/QUOTE]

Bro you're going to end up eating your words on wemby just like you did on Curry when he was coming up. Then you'll have to lump him in with all the other off ball shooter superstar types as the ones that win.

Somebody with giraffe legs isn't meant to dominate the low post like Shaq. He has no leverage for that and it goes against the laws of physics. He's better off playing an off ball finesse game of catching lobs and shooting jumpers. Something you've generally praised over ball domination.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14967286]Duncan entered the league as the best at the most important skill (post), while Wemby entered the league without being top 50 in any skill except blocks... [B]That's why Duncan won right away[/B] and Wemby will be a perennial loser.. Wemby will never be the best at any skill in the NBA except blocks, so he will always trail his more skilled peers... I'm sure the NBA will manufacture his team like they did Lebron's, so he can win some chips... But he lacks the fundamentals to build great chemistry and team on his own.[/QUOTE]

So why didn't MJ win right away? If the argument is because his team was shit, I invite you to look at the Spurs 2024 roster. The only other players right now who could get this group of G-leaguers + 40 year old Chris Paul to over .500 is probably Jokic and Giannis, two top 20 all-timers at the peaks of their careers. It doesn't matter if his individual skill breakdown is in the upper echelon right now or not because nobody his size is supposed to be doing the array of shit he's doing, period. The only thing I want to see is him work around the elbow more and cut the 3s in half.

Trolls don't have logic. On paper, Wemby fits the mold of everything that 3ball generally praises and is none of the things he critiques Bron or other "ball dominantors" for

Yet here we are.

[QUOTE=tpols;14967291] [B]finesse game and shooting jumpers[/B]. Something you've generally praised over ball domination.[/QUOTE]


^^^ He'll never be top 50 at those things though, so he won't win unless the NBA manufactures his teams just like another completely unfundamentally-sound player that couldn't develop great chemistry either (lebron)

And the reality is that you guys are hanging on the Curry example - that's all you have in a sea of correct predictions, such as predicting 10 years ago that the 3-point format would cause everyone to stop watching.. I was right about that and everything except Curry.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14967293]So why didn't MJ win right away? If the argument is because his team was shit, I invite you to look at the Spurs 2024 roster. The only other players right now who could get this group of G-leaguers + 40 year old Chris Paul to over .500 is probably Jokic and Giannis, two top 20 all-timers at the peaks of their careers. It doesn't matter if his individual skill breakdown is in the upper echelon right now or not because nobody his size is supposed to be doing the array shit he's doing, period. The only thing I want to see is him work around the elbow more and cut the 3s in half.[/QUOTE]


Nobody expects Wemby to win now. His roster is complete garbage if we are talking championship caliber.

The difference is Wemby couldn't handle being the clear cut #1 on a title winning team right now. His offensive game would get exposed at the highest levels of playoff basketball, whereas Duncan was excellent as the go to guy - granted he still had flaws of reading defenses at times that he eventually corrected but his offensive skill set was good enough that teams couldnt expose him when it mattered.

Wemby does not have that kind of offensive ability yet. He would have a '07 Bron vs Spurs series vs any tightly knit defensive team with playoff basketball physicality (games are reffed different in the playoffs vs regular season)

[QUOTE=tpols;14967291]Bro you're going to end up eating your words on wemby just like you did on Curry when he was coming up. Then you'll have to lump him in with all the other off ball shooter superstar types as the ones that win.

[/QUOTE]

And when he does, he'll have the same 'Wemby proved me wrong, you guys don't understand basketball' bullshit he uses for Curry.

This is what Wemby IMO should be playing like stylistically:

[video=youtube;IT__LN7Sj7Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT__LN7Sj7Q&ab_channel=iBeButler[/video]

And in some ways he kinda does, but with 9 threes because that's the league he's in.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14967297][B]Nobody expects Wemby to win now. His roster is complete garbage if we are talking championship caliber. [/B]

The difference is Wemby couldn't handle being the clear cut #1 on a title winning team right now. His offensive game would get exposed at the highest levels of playoff basketball, whereas Duncan was excellent as the go to guy - granted he still had flaws of reading defenses at times that he eventually corrected but his offensive skill set was good enough that teams couldnt expose him when it mattered.

Wemby does not have that kind of offensive ability yet. He would have a '07 Bron vs Spurs series vs any tightly knit defensive team with playoff basketball physicality (games are reffed different in the playoffs vs regular season)[/QUOTE]

Nobody except 3ball, you mean.

I've said before I don't think Wemby is 1a offensively on a title team. I think he will be a 1b on offense but with game changing defensive impact. Then again the dude is 21 and we really don't know what he's going to become yet.

Duncan for me. Just more refined due to his collegiate background. I like the reliability of his post-up game over Wemby's high-variance, hot-and-cold approach. Victor doesn't quite have a consistent two-point shot he can go to/self-create in the half-court set yet. And that matters more in the playoffs and in the clutch.

It's not a ridiculous comparison though. I don't get some of the other posters acting like it's disrespectful. We have to contextualize things by accounting for team quality and the strength of opposition. We're talking about how good/impactful a player is, and things like team record, playoff record, and individual accolades are only weak signals for that.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14967298]And when he does, he'll have the same 'Wemby proved me wrong, you guys don't understand basketball' bullshit he uses for Curry.

This is what Wemby IMO should be playing like stylistically:

[video=youtube;IT__LN7Sj7Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT__LN7Sj7Q&ab_channel=iBeButler[/video]

And in some ways he kinda does, but with 9 threes because that's the league he's in.[/QUOTE]

Bosh had such a nice face-up game. Super slithery. Some of those dribble drives reminded me of Shai a little.

^ Well said, that was the kind of comparison points I was hoping for when I thought up the thread.

[QUOTE=highwhey;14967255]:lol[/QUOTE]

I killed him right there with that one.

[QUOTE=tpols;14967282]On the flip side though, does anybody think '98 or '99 Duncan would lead this Spurs team in this current western conference to a title?

Like I'm looking at the Spurs roster and after Wemby the leading scorers are Julian champagnie, Kelton Johnson, and Stephon Castle.

:biggums:

David Robinson was All NBA in the late 90s and had dominant top 5 superstar metrics in 1999. And they faced the Ewing-less 8 seed Knicks in the NBA Finals.

We have to apply some context here when talking about the team result in there respective cases.[/QUOTE]

The point is not what so and so could do with this Spurs roster, nobody in the history of the NBA could win a title with this group. Nobody.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14967295]^^^ He'll never be top 50 at those things though, so he won't win unless the NBA manufactures his teams just like another completely unfundamentally-sound player that couldn't develop great chemistry either (lebron)

And the reality is that you guys are hanging on the Curry example - that's all you have in a sea of correct predictions, such as predicting 10 years ago that the 3-point format would cause everyone to stop watching.. I was right about that and everything except Curry.[/QUOTE]

At least we’ve moved on from him being no different than Shawn Bradley. Baby steps.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14967380]At least we’ve moved on from him being no different than Shawn Bradley. Baby steps.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

Give me Duncan because he was simply more polished on both ends. A lot of that can be the age gap and the college experience Timmy had. Scary to say but I don't think the gap between them as players is very wide. Wemby really is great. My main worries with him is that super thin frame will lead to lots of injuries and also that he's falling into a trap of shooting too many jumpers and should just use his size more.

Yeah this isn't close, Duncan came into the league as basically an MVP candidate.

I know the hype was massive for Wemby, but it was always based a lot more on potential than actual impact. I compare Wemby more to how Kevin Garnett also came into the league with massive hype but took several years to find his groove as an impact player.

Duncan had massive impact from day 1, which Wemby hasn't shown to the same level. Some of that is the game, a big simply can't impact the game as much as they could in the 90s, though Wemby is too skinny to have had the impact of Duncan in the 90s.

I'm still very high on Wemby, I definitely was too critical of him and I think people underestimate how good a passer he is. He is not Jokic, but he'll easily hit 5-6 assists in his prime if the game keeps being the same.

I see in Wemby the same as with Luka, the intelligence and bball education to actually identify and work on the things he needs to work on. This is very good, because it means he'll improve and not be a what-if.

[QUOTE=90sgoat;14967412]Yeah this isn't close, Duncan came into the league as basically an MVP candidate.

I know the hype was massive for Wemby, but it was always based a lot more on potential than actual impact. I compare Wemby more to how Kevin Garnett also came into the league with massive hype but took several years to find his groove as an impact player.

[/QUOTE]

Wemby is much closer to Duncan than he is to Garnett over his first two years. Even from a stat standpoint Garnett wasn't a 20/10 guy until 4 years into his career( for clarity, I'm not comparing Garnett's stats with Wembys, just saying that Garnett took a few more years than Duncan to get to 'that' level, and just through observation Wemby is ahead of Garnett two years into their respective careers).

I suppose, upon reflection, my question should have been 'how close are Duncan and Wemby two years into their careers' instead of 'who you got' because yes, I would take Duncan 98 and 99 as well for the reasons listed that aren't 'he won a chip'. He was more polished and disciplined, even though I think Wemby has the higher offensive potential. But there's too much variance with whether he's on or off from 3 on a given nigh t(or his jumper in general) and he can't really bang down low, whereas Duncan was just giving you a steady offensive output that held up in the playoffs. We need to see how Wemby does first under the same bright lights.

Didn't you just say yesterday that you envision Wemby as a 1B option on a title contender/champion?

How is his offensive potential higher than Dunnans if that's what you think Wemby will be?

Duncan was the bonafide #1 guy. The offense was designed around him in '99 and one of the biggest carry jobs in 2003. He was the clear cut, best offensive player on their teams. He was also the #1 option in 2005 and 2007 regardless of what revisionist historians want to say regarding Manu in 2005 or Parker in 2007.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14967446]Didn't you just say yesterday that you envision Wemby as a 1B option on a title contender/champion?

How is his offensive potential higher than Dunnans if that's what you think Wemby will be?

[/QUOTE]

The two concepts don't contradict each other. I think Wemby can be a 1b scorer on a title team and still wind up with an higher offensive ceiling that Duncan when it's all said and done. I also said we don't know ultimately what Wemby will become offensively, so there is nothing to say he doesn't end up a 1a on a title team either.

[QUOTE=ILLsmak;14967241]I agree with the Duncan by a mile take, tho. It really is that simple. Duncan was so smart as a youngin. Wemby isn't a basketball genius. Maybe it won't matter in the end, but it does in the beginning.

Not a huge Duncan fan, either, but this is not a hard question. One time that the 'troll responses' are right.

-Smak[/QUOTE]

What? Wemby's instincts are really good for his age. And you make Duncan sound like CP3 or Jokic. He was an athletic freak with good fundamentals in his pre-knee injury years.

Wemby can see the floor way better than Duncan already.

I'll start with this: Wemby is flat out a better defender than Duncan was at this point in his career. Question comes down to offense.

It'll eventually be Wemby an individual player, not sure about championships though

[QUOTE=999Guy;14967488]What? Wemby's instincts are really good for his age. And you make Duncan sound like CP3 or Jokic. He was an athletic freak with good fundamentals in his pre-knee injury years.

Wemby can see the floor way better than Duncan already.

I'll start with this: Wemby is flat out a better defender than Duncan was at this point in his career. Question comes down to offense.[/QUOTE]

He has GOAT defensive potential because he can cover both the perimeter and rim and he's never out of a play due to his length. I've seen him almost 'let' guys go around him and lull them into a false sense of security and then 2 steps he's at the rim and catching them from behind.

Duncan was a great shotblocker but he never seemed so intimidating that guys were literally afraid to venture into the paint. Wemby's length and mobility has you constantly looking over your shoulder.

[QUOTE=Street Hunger;14968203]It'll eventually be Wemby an individual player, not sure about championships though[/QUOTE]

With today's parity and player movement, that may be tough nowadays to match 5 chips and probably shouldn't be the expectation. The Warriors may be the last team for a while that was able to keep a core group together for a decade, cycle in complimentary pieces as the core aged and win multiple titles. Someone like Jokic is clearly as good as just about anyone who is going to end up with more championships under different circumstances.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14967258]I would probably take Duncan, but it's way closer than some people think, especially when you consider how well Wemby is playing this season.[/QUOTE]

2026 Wemby > 2000 Duncan

Wembanyama is already better than everyone ever, including peak Duncan.

You absolutely can not appreciate just how good he is defensively and how scared teams are without watching the games. His impact is so far beyond the box score you just have to watch to see it.

He is so far clearly the best defensive player ever and with the offensive strides he's made that he is the best player that ever played. He is not the best offensive player ever but that is likely coming within a couple of seasons tops.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15040055]2026 Wemby > 2000 Duncan[/QUOTE]

Funny some of the early replies in this thread, the absolute incredulousnsss, the outright gall that I dare pose the question....yet where we were. Outside of way too many 3s last year the potential and ceiling was and is beyond obvious. I'm gonna give it the year and not play prisoner of the moment, but yeah. Those monks and Hakeem have unleashed hell on this league.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;15040071]Funny some of the early replies in this thread, the absolute incredulousnsss, the outright gall that I dare pose the question....yet where we were. Outside of way too many 3s last year the potential and ceiling was and is beyond obvious. I'm gonna give it the year and not play prisoner of the moment, but yeah. Those monks and Hakeem have unleashed hell on this league.[/QUOTE]

People tend value older legends over current ones that have not finished their story yet. It’s always been that way. Mr. Fonzcuck is a prime example.

I remember during LeBrons early 2009-2013 years many people at the time thought prime Dr. J and Bird were better players. Now it’s accepted that LeBron peaked higher than both.

I will take the guy that has made it through a season and made the playoffs

Neither are as good as Gobert, but right now I'd go with Wemby.

Been a long off season for the trolls