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[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984821]You are saying that one aspect of offense is just as important as the whole category of defense when defense is half the game. Prime example of how the importance of defense is underrated. Should Olajuwon get extra credit for averaging several more blocks or is that just one aspect of defense?[/QUOTE]
:applause:
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;14984820]Is this due to the game he had last night? If so, Wilt did this routinely.
P
There's a game Wilt apparently had 53 points; 32 rebounds; 24 blocks; 14 assist and 11 steals.[/QUOTE]Possible but someone would have had to assign the blocks in retrospect because Wilt, Russell and others played before blocks were counted as an official stat. That's why Olajuwon has the all-time record instead of one of those two.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14984726]Imo these guys are in the true GOAT tier peak
Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
Wilt
Jokic
I'm not sure where I'd rank Jokic amongst these guys yet, but I agree with OP that he belongs.[/QUOTE]
LeBron is not on that list. Jokic has more triple doubles in half the time. Jokic won without a true all star.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984821]You are saying that one aspect of offense is just as important as the whole category of defense when defense is half the game. Prime example of how the importance of defense is underrated. Should Olajuwon get extra credit for averaging several more blocks or is that just one aspect of defense?[/QUOTE]
Jokics offensive capability is higher than Hakeems. Not only ģs he a better and more efficient scorer, his passing is so GOAT it elevates the team offense to elite rank where as Hakeem never did that.
Šenver Nuggets are 2nd best offense in the league right now. 1994 and 1995 peak Hakeem led the 15th and 7th ranked offenses which is mid for playoff team. He wasn't a great passer. Just a great 1v1 iso scorer. Being able to dime at Yolks level unlocks a totally different team ceiling.
And we've seen that over and over.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984824]Possible but someone would have had to assign the blocks in retrospect because Wilt, Russell and others played before blocks were counted as an official stat. That's why Olajuwon has the all-time record instead of one of those two.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention the way assists are counted now has changed massively compared to the 60s so with today's bean counters Wilt may have had some 30 20 20s or 50 20 20s.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984821]You are saying that one aspect of offense is just as important as the whole category of defense [B]when defense is half the game.[/B] Prime example of how the importance of defense is underrated. Should Olajuwon get extra credit for averaging several more blocks or is that just one aspect of defense?[/QUOTE]
It's not half the game for an individual. A single player can impact the game much more offensively than defensively. Scoring 1 on 5 is theoretically possible to do over and over. Defending 1 on 5 is not. Particularly in today's game with the spacing. If you put Jokic in an era where all he's expected to do is body up the other team's center, nobody would notice his defense.
A multiple time DPOY in Toody is getting constantly roasted today because of how quickly the evolution of the game has made defensive centers a near non factor.
You're stating something factually wrong and nonsensical because you dont want to have to adjust your views. Now that I've deconstructed your basketball points logically, you'll have a defensive feminine cattitude and say something like generic like "Well I dont care about your idiotic takes."
Rinse and repeat.
Jokic's defense also isnt as bad as people think it is because they dont notice all the times his positioning/rotation prevents a basket. Simpler fans only notice blocks/direct contests. The Denver defense is always better with him on the court than without him. During their title run 'the metrics' had him on par with Giannis as a defender.
The problem is simple people trying to make statements about complex things. It's not a very good fit. And yet that never seems to stop them.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984824]Possible but someone would have had to assign the blocks in retrospect because Wilt, Russell and others played before blocks were counted as an official stat. That's why Olajuwon has the all-time record instead of one of those two.[/QUOTE]
The guy from the Sixers kept count, it just wasn't a stat until the season after Wilt retired.
[QUOTE=tpols;14984826]Jokics offensive capability is higher than Hakeems. Not only ģs he a better and more efficient scorer, his passing is so GOAT it elevates the team offense to elite rank where as Hakeem never did that.[/quote] Peak vs peak Jokic has a statistical edge in shooting %age but Olajuwon has a number of seasons where the scoring numbers are close and he was still shooting over 50%. And that's playing in a league where his only competition wasn't one guy in the other conference he only had to face once per year due to injury. With David Robinson and Dikembe Mutombo on him for 8 games a season plus having to deal with Ewing Zo and Shaq 2 games a year not including the playoffs Olajuwon's competition blows Jokic's away. Factoring in the playoffs, please give an example of Jokic going head-to-head with someone like Shaq. Never happened. You want to make a big deal over percentage points in the face of that?
[Quote]Šenver Nuggets are 2nd best offense in the league right now. 1994 and 1995 peak Hakeem led the 15th and 7th ranked offenses which is mid for playoff team. He wasn't a great passer. Just a great 1v1 iso scorer. Being able to dime at Yolks level unlocks a totally different team ceiling.
And we've seen that over and over.[/QUOTE] Who cares about the rank of the offense when you are winning the championship? Here's something for you to look up and pretend you know about: who was the second star during Olajuwon's first championship run, and how many points did he average?
[QUOTE=Neal Romer;14984830]It's not half the game for an individual. A single player can impact the game much more offensively than defensively. Scoring 1 on 5 is theoretically possible to do over and over. Defending 1 on 5 is not. Particularly in today's game with the spacing. If you put Jokic in an era where all he's expected to do is body up the other team's center, nobody would notice his defense.
A multiple time DPOY in Toody is getting constantly roasted today because of how quickly the evolution of the game has made defensive centers a near non factor.
You're stating something factually wrong and nonsensical because you dont want to have to adjust your views. Now that I've deconstructed your basketball points logically, you'll have a defensive feminine cattitude and say something like generic like "Well I dont care about your idiotic takes."
Rinse and repeat.[/QUOTE]
Yea that's true also.
With the proliferation of the 3 pt shot the defensive impact of past great centers would be greatly diminished today from an individual perspective since back in their era there was like triple the offensive action in the paint. So being able to limit that yield tremendous defensive results. Isn't going to be the same with today's spacing and shooting.
Hakeems defense 30 feet out is nothing like what he provided at the rim or in the post. And that's what he would be facing today over and over. Still could dominate but it would take a hit dragging him out 30 feet every time instead of constant paint camping.
[QUOTE=Neal Romer;14984830]It's not half the game for an individual. A single player can impact the game much more offensively than defensively. Scoring 1 on 5 is theoretically possible to do over and over. Defending 1 on 5 is not. Particularly in today's game with the spacing. If you put Jokic in an era where all he's expected to do is body up the other team's center, nobody would notice his defense.[/quote] So you're argument is scoring 1 on 5 is possible... why don't you go find someone of something closer to average intelligence and have them try to debate for you. No, I'm not going to read the rest.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984835]Peak vs peak Jokic has a statistical edge in shooting %age but Olajuwon has a number of seasons where the scoring numbers are close and he was still shooting over 50%. [B]And that's playing in a league where his only competition wasn't one guy in the other conference he only had to face once per year due to injury.[/B] With David Robinson and Dikembe Mutombo on him for 8 games a season plus having to deal with Ewing Zo and Shaq 2 games a year not including the playoffs Olajuwon's competition blows Jokic's away. Factoring in the playoffs, please give an example of Jokic going head-to-head with someone like Shaq. Never happened. You want to make a big deal over percentage points in the face of that?
Who cares about the rank of the offense when you are winning the championship? Here's something for you to look up and pretend you know about: who was the second star during Olajuwon's first championship run, and how many points did he average?[/QUOTE]
So he hasnt feasted on Anthony Davis across multiple playoff series? He doesnt put multiply DPOY Toody in a body bag routinely?
My GOODNESS you are so... You're so........... errrrrrrrrgggggggggg, I'm not gonna be personally insulting. I'm not gonna insult anyone.
You are just.... [I]youre Real Men Wear Green. [/I]
When people hear that name, the things they think about... that's you! That's your life, your personality. When you look in the mirror, you see [I]Real Men Wear Green. [/I]
It's just crazy :lol
That wasnt techincally an insult. It's just a fact. [I]Youre Real Men Wear Green. [/I]
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984838]So you're argument is scoring 1 on 5 is possible... why don't you go find someone of something closer to average intelligence and have them try to debate for you. No, I'm not going to read the rest.[/QUOTE]
:lol
*DESPERATELY COVERS MOUTH TO KEEP FROM RETORTING*
FUUUUUUUUKKKKKKKKKKK
[I]Youre Real Men Wear Green![/I]
That should embarrass you so badly but I dont think youre smart enough to reali-
Fukkkkk. Nevermind! I wont say it. Youre just RMWG. That's all. Youre RMWG.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984]
Who cares about the rank of the offense when you are winning the championship?[/QUOTE]
Who cares about the rank of the offense a player leads when said player is arguably the greatest offensive player of all time?
[I]*Raises hand*[/I]
Seems kind of important. And the funny thing is I agree with you. Jokic won his Championship by leading super elite offense, and Hakeem won his by leading middle offenses but great defense.
Both won, but in different ways with great impact on each players side. Like I said before... it all evens out and they both had GOAT peaks.
[QUOTE=Neal Romer;14984839]So he hasnt feasted on Anthony Davis across multiple playoff series? He doesnt put multiply DPOY Toody in a body bag routinel[/QUOTE]He's 30 pins heavier than Davis who doesn't want to play center. You want to put Gobert on par with Ewing and Shaq? Whatever.
[QUOTE=Neal Romer;14984840]:lol
*DESPERATELY COVERS MOUTH TO KEEP FROM RETORTING*
FUUUUUUUUKKKKKKKKKKK
[I]Youre Real Men Wear Green![/I]
That should embarrass you so badly but I dont think youre smart enough to reali-
Fukkkkk. Nevermind! I wont say it. Youre just RMWG. That's all. Youre RMWG.[/QUOTE]
He is a character. :lol consistent too.
[QUOTE=tpols;14984842]Who cares about the rank of the offense a player leads when said player is arguably the greatest offensive player of all time?
[I]*Raises hand*[/I]
Seems kind of important. And the funny thing is I agree with you. Jokic won his Championship by leading super elite offense, and Hakeem won his by leading middle offenses but great defense.
Both won, but in different ways with great impact on each players side. Like I said before... it all evens out and they both had GOAT peaks.[/QUOTE] You didn't answer the question: That first championship, who was the Rockets' second scorer?
[QUOTE=tpols;14984842]Who cares about the rank of the offense a player leads when said player is arguably the greatest offensive player of all time?
[I]*Raises hand*[/I]
Seems kind of important. And the funny thing is I agree with you. Jokic won his Championship by leading super elite offense, and Hakeem won his by leading middle offenses but great defense.
Both won, but in different ways with great impact on each players side. Like I said before... it all evens out and they both had GOAT peaks.[/QUOTE]
Actually, the Rockets won with the grandfather of the offenses that win now. Using an elite scoring threat to create open 3s and having shooters on the floor at every other position at times. Once we address that, then we can also talk about the elite defense he anchored for them.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984845]You didn't answer the question: That first championship, who was the Rockets' second scorer?[/QUOTE]
He doesnt have a clue, he doesn't even know how the Rockets played then.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984845]You didn't answer the question: That first championship, who was the Rockets' second scorer?[/QUOTE]
No worse than the Knicks 2nd option in 1994 championship fight. Actually mightve been better given what John Starks did.
But that's besides the point. Hakeem played a long time in the NBA and never led offenses on the level that Jokic has been doing. And he didn't play with only bums. 1995 Clyde Drexler played like a HOFer on Houston when they won and he's one of the best guards ever.
It's OK to admit Jokic is a better offensive player than Hakeem my friend. It's like... a literal fact at this point with a mountain of evidence behind it.
Someone trying to claim Hakeem > Jokic is straight up laughable.
Please dont bring up Hakeem's rings. They were not only won in the WEAKEST time period of the three point era (90's), but he also won the 2 years when peak MJ retired.
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984849][B]Someone trying to claim Hakeem > Jokic is straight up laughable.[/B]
Please dont bring up Hakeem's rings. They were not only won in the WEAKEST time period of the three point era (90's), but he also won the 2 years when peak MJ retired.[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll: :roll:
BuzzfeedLurk at it again
[QUOTE=tpols;14984848]But that's besides the point. [/QUOTE] Yes, it is. This is your second post where you don't answer the question. Drexler joined for the second championship. Who was the second scorer on that first title run?
If you guys think putting Jokic on one team and Hakeem on another in any era creates some significant degree of advantage for Dream's side... then you just dont have much credibility.
All the semantics about shooting % or defensive ability etc are immaterial. Put each guy on a team with everything else the same, who has the advantage in an actual 5 on 5 game of basketball?
The answer is probably neither, but if it's anyone it's Jokic. He is historically offensively dominant. If you think it's Hakeem "bc defense" then you must have Artest up there with Kobe. Or Toody alongside prime healthy Embiid. [I]Because theyre better defenders![/I]
"But but but defense" isnt a good argument. Individuals impact defense far less than they impact offense.
So, thats it. Accept something that is correct, or keep being loudly stupid. Your call.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984852]Yes, it is. This is your second post where you don't answer the question. Drexler joined for the second championship. [B]Who was the second scorer on that first title run?[/B][/QUOTE]
John Starks.
:lol
2/18.
That was Hakeems 2nd option.
Jokic literally is all-time number one in a ton of advanced stats. Literally number 1.
It's hilarious seeing people try to down play him.
PER, BPM, WS/48, TS% (number 1 for volume scorers), etc. he's at the TOP of the list.
Jokic at his peak is the best combination of scoring/rebounding/passing by a good margin. The ONLY reason Jokic isn't the clear best player of all time is because he is average on defense. MJ/Kareem/Lebron's defensive capabilities at their peaks give them a SLIGHT edge over Jokic.
But Jokic absolutely dominates offense and rebounding at the highest combination (which is 2/3 of the game).
[QUOTE=tpols;14984848]No worse than the Knicks 2nd option in 1994 championship fight. Actually mightve been better given what John Starks did.
But that's besides the point. Hakeem played a long time in the NBA and never led offenses on the level that Jokic has been doing. And he didn't play with only bums. [B]1995 Clyde Drexler played like a HOFer [/B]on Houston when they won and he's one of the best guards ever.
It's OK to admit Jokic is a better offensive player than Hakeem my friend. It's like... a literal fact at this point with a mountain of evidence behind it.[/QUOTE]
Wrong again. In 95 Clyde played like 2012 Dwade, a diminished version of himself bit still capable of bright spots at times. He wasn't Blazers Clyde anymore.
[QUOTE=tpols;14984856]John Starks.
:lol
2/18.
That was Hakeems 2nd option.[/QUOTE]
So you won't even talk about the second scorer but want to act like the team offensive rating should be held against Olajuwon?
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984849]Someone trying to claim Hakeem > Jokic [B]offensively[/B] is straight up laughable.
Please dont bring up Hakeem's rings. They were not only won in the WEAKEST time period of the three point era (90's), but he also won the 2 years when peak MJ retired.[/QUOTE]
Fixed that for you to make it true. There's more to basketball than just offense as well.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984860]So you won't even talk about the second scorer but want to act like the team offensive rating should be held against Olajuwon?[/QUOTE]
[I]Youre RMWG![/I]
Hakeem never led an elite offense in his entire career I don't need to cherry pick one year. His offenses literally aren't even close to Jokics. Its not even close.
This site amazes me sometimes. Just in the past 25 hours I've had to debate people that Wade isnt as good as SGA, Durant wasn't the best player on the 2021 Nets, and now Hakeem can apparently QB all time great offenses like Jokic even though he never did.
It is amusing though to conversate this stuff. Thank you. :lol
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984858]Jokic literally is all-time number one in a ton of advanced stats. Literally number 1.
It's hilarious seeing people try to down play him.
PER, BPM, WS/48, TS% (number 1 for volume scorers), etc. he's at the TOP of the list.
Jokic at his peak is the best combination of scoring/rebounding/passing by a good margin. The ONLY reason Jokic isn't the clear best player of all time is because he is average on defense. MJ/Kareem/Lebron's defensive capabilities at their peaks give them a SLIGHT edge over Jokic.
But Jokic absolutely dominates offense and rebounding at the highest combination (which is 2/3 of the game).[/QUOTE]
Box score stats lol.
Dim :(
[QUOTE=Neal Romer;14984863][I]Youre RMWG![/I][/QUOTE]
And you're arguing on the asinine premise that defense doesn't matter. You are attempting to be comic relief. Personally I don't find you funny. So I just don't see what you contribute. But I'm RMWG.
[QUOTE=tpols;14984864]Hakeem never led an elite offense in his entire career I don't need to cherry pick one year. His offenses literally aren't even close to Jokics. Its not even close.
This site amazes me sometimes. Just in the past 25 hours I've had to debate people that Wade isnt as good as SGA, Durant wasn't the best player on the 2021 Nets, and now Hakeem can apparently QB all time great offenses like Jokic even though he never did.
It is amusing though to conversate this stuff. Thank you. :lol[/QUOTE]
He would need to be with great offensive players to have a great offense. That never happened in the players'primes. But no one is saying that olajuwon is just as good as an overall offensive player. Just that he is a great offensive player along with being one of the greatest defensive players of all time. And yes, defense does matter.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984866]And you're arguing on the asinine premise that defense doesn't matter. You are attempting to be comic relief. Personally I don't find you funny. So I just don't see what you contribute. [B]But I'm RMWG[/B].[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll: :roll:
Thats awesome. But youre right. Arguing this over and over IS asinine. It doesnt matter what you think about Dream vs Joker. It doesnt matter what I think. We're dragging this out for multiple pages at the expense of much better things we could be doing with our time.
That's it. I'M RETIRING FROM INSIDEHOOPS for like at least a week. Starting now.
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984849]Someone trying to claim Hakeem > Jokic is straight up laughable.
Please dont bring up Hakeem's rings. They were not only won in the WEAKEST time period of the three point era (90's), but he also won the 2 years when peak MJ retired.[/QUOTE]
RRR3's not lying that you sound like a young casual fan with posts like this :lol
What Hakeem did in '94 & '95, carrying one of the weakest championship rosters ever in '94, beating Malone/Stockton, Barkley/KJ, Robinson/Rodman & Shaq/Penny all on the road in '95, eviscerating Ewing & Robinson h2h, and winning MVP & DPOY absolutely puts him in argument with Jokic if we're talking strictly peaks. Not even LeBron & Jordan are clearly above that.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984867]He would need to be with great offensive players to have a great offense. That never happened in the players'primes. But no one is saying that olajuwon is just as good as an overall offensive player. Just that he is a great offensive player along with being one of the greatest defensive players of all time. And yes, defense does matter.[/QUOTE]
Yes defense does matter. Which is why I said Hakeems defense bridges the gap between him and Jokic offense. And that it all evens out and they both have GOAT peaks. Seems like we're going in circles where you don't realize I'm agreeing with you.
[QUOTE=tpols;14984864]Hakeem never led an elite offense in his entire career I don't need to cherry pick one year. His offenses literally aren't even close to Jokics. Its not even close.
This site amazes me sometimes. Just in the past 25 hours I've had to debate people that Wade isnt as good as SGA, Durant wasn't the best player on the 2021 Nets, and now Hakeem can apparently QB all time great offenses like Jokic even though he never did.
It is amusing though to conversate this stuff. Thank you. :lol[/QUOTE]
I dont get it. If jokic is so good and has a teammate that turns into a 50/40/90 guy who averages 20+ points every year in the postseason. Why [B]THE FU[I]CK[/I][/B] does he lose every year? Why did a 22-year-old ant man (still wet behind the ears) knock him off in the playoffs on the road? Why did he almost get swept by the warriors? Why does he have multiple playoff loses by 30+ points? Hakeem didnt have a 20+ ppg scorer who turned into a 50/40/90 guy every post season. If Jokic is so good why does he get out played by embiid H2H when you look at their H2H stats/ H2H record? Do you think Embiid would out play Hakeem if they played multiple times like Jokic and embiid? Do you think that highly of embiid?
All of a sudden beating Jimmy Butler in a Finals makes you some sort of killa. But losing by 45 to the Timberwolves means nothing. Getting swept by devin booker means nothing. Getting beat 4 times by the warriors with a 6'7 draymond green @ center in the playoffs means nothing.
He will nevvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvver crack the top 5. IDGAF what anaytics say. NEVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. I have eyes..... I remember him choking against ANT...... i remember the warriors beating him like a pinata...... i remember him getting stopped by a over the hill bubble dwight......I REMEMBER..... no matter how much you suck his d[I]i[/I]ck.....ILL REMEMBER! Every......single....playoff flop
[QUOTE=Mask the Embiid;14984873]I dont get it. If jokic is so good and has a teammate that turns into a 50/40/90 guy who averages 20+ points every year in the postseason. Why [B]THE FU[I]CK[/I][/B] does he lose every year? Why did a 22-year-old ant man (still wet behind the ears) knock him off in the playoffs on the road? Why did he get swept by the warriors? Why does he have multiple playoff loses by 30+ points? Hakeem didnt have a 20+ ppg scorer who turned into a 50/40/90 guy every post season. If Jokic is so good why does he get out played by embiid H2H when you look at their H2H stats/ H2H record? Do you think Embiid would out play Hakeem if they played multiple times like Jokic and embiid? Do you think that highly of embiid?
All of a sudden beating Jimmy Butler in a Finals makes you some sort of killa. But losing by 45 to the Timberwolves means nothing. Getting swept by devin booker means nothing. Getting blown out 3 times by the warriors back to back to back means nothing. Being 0-2 in game 7's mean nothing.[/QUOTE]
Calm down. Jokic vs Embiid is over. Been done.
[QUOTE=Mask the Embiid;14984873]I dont get it. If jokic is so good and has a teammate that turns into a 50/40/90 guy who averages 20+ points every year in the postseason. Why [B]THE FU[I]CK[/I][/B] does he lose every year? Why did a 22-year-old ant man (still wet behind the ears) knock him off in the playoffs on the road? Why did he get swept by the warriors? Why does he have multiple playoff loses by 30+ points? Hakeem didnt have a 20+ ppg scorer who turned into a 50/40/90 guy every post season. If Jokic is so good why does he get out played by embiid H2H when you look at their H2H stats/ H2H record? Do you think Embiid would out play Hakeem if they played multiple times like Jokic and embiid? Do you think that highly of embiid?
All of a sudden beating Jimmy Butler in a Finals makes you some sort of killa. But losing by 45 to the Timberwolves means nothing. Getting swept by devin booker means nothing. Getting blown out 3 times by the warriors back to back to back in the playoffs means nothing. Being 0-2 in game 7's mean nothing.
He will nevvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvver crack the top 5. IDGAF what anaytics say. NEVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. I have eyes..... I remember him choking against ANT...... i remember the warriors beating him like a pinata...... i remember him getting stopped by a over the hill bubble dwight......I REMEMBER..... no matter how much you suck his d[I]i[/I]ck.....ILL REMEMBER! Every......single....playoff flop[/QUOTE]
And to think that's STILL better than Embiid's playoff resume :(