israel supporters - i have a bridge to sell you.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15008940]So what, you think Trump is subservient to Israel?

That makes:

- Russia / Putin
- Israel / Netanyahu
- Elon Musk

All supposedly pulling Trump's puppet strings if you ask certain people.

I'm curious, to what degree is Trump obligated to Israel in your opinion? Is he a business partner? Is he being blackmailed?

Genuinely asking.[/QUOTE]

how much $ has he taken from the adelson family and the greater israel lobby? you think they're just playing nice giving $ to the trump campaign? trump is compromised in this regard - he's openly admitted it. "the israel lobby - a very, very powerful thing". they had a hand in getting him elected. it's simple stuff here.

[QUOTE=diamenz;15008944]how much $ has he taken from the adelson family and the greater israel lobby? you think they're just playing nice giving $ to the trump campaign? trump is compromised in this regard - he's openly admitted it. "the israel lobby - a very, very powerful thing". they had a hand in getting him elected. it's simple stuff here.[/QUOTE]

So at the present moment you don't think Trump has any autonomy when it comes to Israel?

[QUOTE=Baller234;15008945]So at the present moment you don't think Trump has any autonomy when it comes to Israel?[/QUOTE]

money talks. he's influenced, is the bottom line. to what extent is the question? how does he feel about it personally, what kind of people does he has in his ear, what type of legacy does he want to leave for himself. all of these things factor into the equation.

as far as what's been applied so far policy wise, he's been much less subservient to israel than joe was and that's a great thing for the country. but will it last? will israel push the boundaries and just go to war with iran knowing the lobby will drag us in? will israel pull another uss liberty false flag incident? i've given trump credit where credit is due but only time will tell. trump has good instincts - he needs to listen to them and get rid of the people telling him to keep these wars going. it's not in our interest.

[QUOTE=diamenz;15008939]we've been over this chewing, time and time again.[/QUOTE]

Remind me again. So much crappie gets posted on this site by trolls and by neo-Nazis that i forget the responses from the more decent posters on the board.

[QUOTE=Patrick Chewing;15008964]Remind me again. So much crappie gets posted on this site by trolls and by neo-Nazis that i forget the responses from the more decent posters on the board.[/QUOTE]

i don't know to be honest chewing. my response would have initially been something similar but after emotions settled i definitely wouldn't have taken it this far.

[QUOTE=diamenz;15008997][B][SIZE=4]i don't know [/SIZE][/B]to be honest chewing. my response would have initially been something similar but after emotions settled i definitely wouldn't have taken it this far.[/QUOTE]

The **** did I just tell you bruh?? You better not say you don't know what Israel's response should have been while you actually criticize Israel's response.

what more do you need to hear?

[video=youtube;HCkVGJY_gG8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCkVGJY_gG8[/video]

@Baller234 @Patrick Chewing

i've been thinking about this today because this is a subject that bothers me on a moral level. it's clear that we're not going to agree on most things related and that's fine because this is a polarizing subject for obvious reasons, whatever they may be according to the individual(s).

if we could focus on what we [B]can[/B] agree on and leave it at that, that's progress. the loss of innocent life on either side. i said it in a previous post and i'll say it again because it's the easiest thing in the world for me to do.

[B]i have no issue [U]willingly[/U] condemning hamas for all of the innocents that they've killed, tortured, held hostage, whatever, what-have-you, before, on and after oct 7th. dead innocent jews/israelis is something nobody, [U]including myself[/U] wants to see, [u]period, full-stop, no excuses[/u].[/B]

if there's anything you'd like me to add to that, within reason, i have no problem doing it.

i ask you to meet me halfway.[U] *uck the noise you hear from the media, [B]anybody here[/B] and anybody on the left that says otherwise. you're having a back & forth with me here and me alone[/U]. [B][U]if[/U][/B] there's any intentional killing, intent to kill, injure or intentionally starve innocent brown women and children on the part of the israeli government, you'd have no problem condemning this i assume. [I]i ask you to be thorough and complete with your condemnation as i was. [/I]

let's meet each other halfway and end this conversation on a positive note. because i'd be fine and content with that and i assume you would too. am i not being reasonable?

[QUOTE=diamenz;15009202]@Baller234 @Patrick Chewing

i've been thinking about this today because this is a subject that bothers me on a moral level. it's clear that we're not going to agree on most things related and that's fine because this is a polarizing subject for obvious reasons, whatever they may be according to the individual(s).

if we could focus on what we [B]can[/B] agree on and leave it at that, that's progress. the loss of innocent life on either side. i said it in a previous post and i'll say it again because it's the easiest thing in the world for me to do.

[B]i have no issue [U]willingly[/U] condemning hamas for all of the innocents that they've killed, tortured, held hostage, what-have-you, before, on and after oct 7th. dead innocent jews/israelis is something nobody, [U]including myself[/U] wants to see, [u]period, full-stop, no excuses[/u].[/B]

if there's anything you'd like me to add to that, within reason, i have no problem doing it.

i ask you to meet me halfway.[U] *uck the noise you hear from the media, anybody here and anybody on the left that says otherwise. you're having a back & forth with me here and me alone[/U]. [B][U]if[/U][/B] there's any intentional killing, intent to kill, or injure innocent brown people on the part of the israeli government, you'd have no problem condemning this i assume. i ask you to be thorough and complete with your condemnation as i was.

let's meet each other halfway and end this conversation on a positive note. because i'd be fine and content with that and i assume you would too. am i not being reasonable?[/QUOTE]

What? Palestine obviously started the conflict between the two nations on October 7th, 2023. Israel was just minding their own business before that..

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15009203]What? Palestine obviously started the conflict between the two nations on October 7th, 2023. Israel was just minding their own business before that..[/QUOTE]

stop. this isn't productive and it's posts like these that turn people like baller and chewing off. i shouldn't even have to say this. this isn't your conversation, with all due respect.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15009203]What? Palestine obviously started the conflict between the two nations on October 7th, 2023. Israel was just minding their own business before that..[/QUOTE]

have you been tested for lead poisoning? serious question.

[QUOTE=diamenz;15009206]stop. this isn't productive and it's posts like these that turn people like baller and chewing off. i shouldn't even have to say this. this isn't your conversation, with all due respect.[/QUOTE]
muh both sides

[QUOTE=diamenz;15009206]stop. this isn't productive and it's posts like these that turn people like baller and chewing off. i shouldn't even have to say this. this isn't your conversation, with all due respect.[/QUOTE]

Lighten up dude.

I know it’s a serious issue and I agree with you on this. But you’re not changing anyone’s mind. I’ve spoken to baller and chewing quite a bit. It ain’t happening.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15009209]Lighten up dude.

I know it’s a serious issue and I agree with you on this. But you’re not changing anyone’s mind. I’ve spoken to baller and chewing quite a bit. It ain’t happening.[/QUOTE]

no, i won't.

it's not my intent to change minds, idiot. reread my post. i spent more than a few minutes writing and revising it for a reason. [B]wise up.[/B]

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15009209]Lighten up dude.

I know it’s a serious issue and I agree with you on this. But you’re not changing anyone’s mind. I’ve spoken to baller and chewing quite a bit. It ain’t happening.[/QUOTE]
Eh he's framing it as a both sides thing which isn't really fair. Hamas is horrible and October 7 was an atrocity, yes, but they are not on equal grounds in terms of immorality. There's a big power difference and historical difference.

jesus christ. :rolleyes:

listen, do me a favor.

everybody else sans highwhey just shut the *uck up for now because you're [B]not[/B] helping.

[QUOTE=highwhey;15009207]have you been tested for lead poisoning? serious question.[/QUOTE]

Oh shit they have tests for that? Good lookin’ out :cheers:

[QUOTE=diamenz;15009210]no, i won't.

it's not my intent to change minds, idiot. reread my post. i spent more than a few minutes writing and revising it for a reason. [B]wise up.[/B][/QUOTE]

Getting a hard-headed individual to meet you in the middle is the equivalent of changing their mind.

But sure, out of respect for you I’ll bow out.

3tard is such a disingenuous liar. He's said countless times "I'm not defending Hamas!" yet here he is running cover for them once again.

It's no different from the way he defends democrats. He swears up and down that he hates democrats and that they're so evil, but the moment anyone compares them to republicans he becomes their biggest cheerleader. In other words it's perfectly fine to talk shit about democrats, but don't dare suggest they're as bad as republicans or else 3tard is going to get REALLY upset and he will have to defend their honor.

Now he's defending Hamas's honor.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15009221]3tard is such a disingenuous liar. He's said countless times "I'm not defending Hamas!" yet here he is running cover for them once again.

It's no different from the way he defends democrats. He swears up and down that he hates democrats and that they're so evil, but the moment anyone compares them to republicans he becomes their biggest cheerleader. In other words it's perfectly fine to talk shit about democrats, but don't dare suggest they're as bad as republicans or else 3tard is going to get REALLY upset and he will have to defend their honor.

Now he's defending Hamas's honor.[/QUOTE]

yeah, see rrr3. you're dumber than i ever could have given you credit for. you gave him an out to deviate from the premise of my point. your stupidity is unreal and knows no bounds. you have the iq of a gnat.

jesus lmao. baller, i feel you bro. when you deal with people like rrr3, it doesn't make you want to come to the table in a reasonable way, does it? i sat in your shoes for a minute there.

but like i said, *uck the noise. think about what i said in [B]our[/B] conversation and think about meeting [U]me[/U] halfway.

[QUOTE=diamenz;15009223]yeah, see rrr3. you're dumber than i ever could have given you credit for. you gave him an out to deviate from the premise of my point. your stupidity is unreal and knows no bounds. you have the iq of a gnat.

jesus lmao. baller, i feel you bro. when you deal with people like rrr3, it doesn't make you want to come to the table in a reasonable way, does it? i sat in your shoes for a minute there.

but like i said, *uck the noise. think about what i said in [B]our[/B] conversation and think about meeting [U]me[/U] halfway.[/QUOTE]

I know there are legitimate criticisms of Israel, but it's clear that when it comes to people like 3tard it stems from hatred over compassion.

If god forbid a group of native indians ever went on a killing rampage and decided to brutally murder a bunch of random whites claiming it was payback for "taking their land", 3tard would be the first one to defend them and chalk their rage up to historical oppression.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15009224]I know there are legitimate criticisms of Israel, but it's clear that when it comes to people like 3tard it stems from hatred over compassion.

If god forbid a group of native indians ever went on a killing rampage and decided to brutally murder a bunch of random whites claiming it was payback for "taking their land", 3tard would be the first one to defend them and chalk their rage up to historical oppression.[/QUOTE]

think about what i said and let me know where you stand.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15009224]I know there are legitimate criticisms of Israel, but it's clear that when it comes to people like 3tard it stems from hatred over compassion.

If god forbid a group of native indians ever went on a killing rampage and decided to brutally murder a bunch of random whites claiming it was payback for "taking their land", 3tard would be the first one to defend them and chalk their rage up to historical oppression.[/QUOTE]

it depends, were those indians controlled by a terrorist state government? would the us retaliate by bombing innocent indians that had nothing to do with the killing rampage and continue to do so for years on no end? would there be testimony of neutral parties witnessing mass killings of innocent indian children, women, and elderly after being bombed? have those indians been constantly bombed, pillaged and driven out of their homes for decades upon decades until current day?

context matters. and no one in this forum has defended hamas fyi. it's just in your head that people are defending hamas.

[QUOTE=diamenz;15009226]think about what i said and let me know where you stand.[/QUOTE]

As far as what? Condemning the taking of innocent life? Of course I condemn that. Israel's hands aren't clean in all of this despite what they're up against. Like I said war brings out the worst in everyone. For all we know they allowed Oct 7 to happen. I don't like to go down that road but I would be foolish not to allow for that possibility.

We'll never know the whole truth anyway so there's no sense in trying to make sense of it. What I do know is that once Israel first went on their rampage, there were plenty of opportunities for the other side to wave the white flag. They chose not to.

You CAN'T get baller234 to change his mind on anything, Shawk was telling you that already. By all means, continue insisting you're not an uber conservative while you play pattycake with an arch-zionist and attack people framing a genocide correctly. He will still disagree with you.

Maybe....MAYBE you could get through to Chewing on some level if you use the right arguments. But not baller.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15009229]You CAN'T get baller234 to change his mind on anything, Shawk was telling you that already. By all means, continue insisting you're not an uber conservative while you play pattycake with an arch-zionist and attack people framing a genocide correctly. He will still disagree with you.

Maybe....MAYBE you could get through to Chewing on some level if you use the right arguments. But not baller.[/QUOTE]

I've changed my mind plenty of times in my life. I used to be a democrat. I voted for Obama.

YOU can't change my mind because you're an unintelligent moron that doesn't adhere to facts or consistent logic.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15009228]As far as what? Condemning the taking of innocent life? Of course I condemn that. Israel's hands aren't clean in all of this despite what they're up against. Like I said war brings out the worst in everyone. For all we know they allowed Oct 7 to happen. I don't like to go down that road but I would be foolish not to allow for that possibility.

[/QUOTE]

i'll take it, that's all i had to hear. cheers brother.

@Patrick Chewing

[QUOTE=Baller234;15009230]I've changed my mind plenty of times in my life. I used to be a democrat. I voted for Obama.

YOU can't change my mind because you're an unintelligent moron that doesn't adhere to facts or consistent logic.[/QUOTE]

who in their right mind can support the modern day democratic party? you'd have to be a soccer mom that limits herself to the nightly news or a illegal immigrant that votes in their interest alone to do such a thing. it's absolute insanity.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15009229]You CAN'T get baller234 to change his mind on anything, Shawk was telling you that already. By all means, continue insisting you're not an uber conservative while you play pattycake with an arch-zionist and attack people framing a genocide correctly. He will still disagree with you.

Maybe....MAYBE you could get through to Chewing on some level if you use the right arguments. But not baller.[/QUOTE]

reread post #49. reread it twice or as many times as you have to until it sinks in. i'm not trying to change anyone's mind. my post was in good faith reaching out to someone that sees things different than i do. my intent was to meet them halfway on what we [B]can[/B] agree on and leave it at that. stop making yourself look bad. that's probably too much to ask.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15009229]You CAN'T get baller234 to change his mind on anything, Shawk was telling you that already. By all means, continue insisting you're not an uber conservative while you play pattycake with an arch-zionist and attack people framing a genocide correctly. He will still disagree with you.

Maybe....MAYBE you could get through to Chewing on some level if you use the right arguments. But not baller.[/QUOTE]

btw, keep using the word genocide. see where that gets you in any conversation or debate.

[QUOTE=diamenz;15009233]@Patrick Chewing[/QUOTE]

Is this like the Bat signal for my attention? You rang?

[QUOTE=Patrick Chewing;15009257]Is this like the Bat signal for my attention? You rang?[/QUOTE]

:lol

[QUOTE=Patrick Chewing;15009257]Is this like the Bat signal for my attention? You rang?[/QUOTE]

should i assume from your silence that you have no interest or intent to participate in post [URL="#48"]#48[/URL]?

[QUOTE=diamenz;15009202]@Baller234 @Patrick Chewing

i've been thinking about this today because this is a subject that bothers me on a moral level. it's clear that we're not going to agree on most things related and that's fine because this is a polarizing subject for obvious reasons, whatever they may be according to the individual(s).

if we could focus on what we [B]can[/B] agree on and leave it at that, that's progress. the loss of innocent life on either side. i said it in a previous post and i'll say it again because it's the easiest thing in the world for me to do.

[B]i have no issue [U]willingly[/U] condemning hamas for all of the innocents that they've killed, tortured, held hostage, whatever, what-have-you, before, on and after oct 7th. dead innocent jews/israelis is something nobody, [U]including myself[/U] wants to see, [u]period, full-stop, no excuses[/u].[/B]

if there's anything you'd like me to add to that, within reason, i have no problem doing it.

i ask you to meet me halfway.[U] *uck the noise you hear from the media, [B]anybody here[/B] and anybody on the left that says otherwise. you're having a back & forth with me here and me alone[/U]. [B][U]if[/U][/B] there's any intentional killing, intent to kill, injure or intentionally starve innocent brown women and children on the part of the israeli government, you'd have no problem condemning this i assume. [I]i ask you to be thorough and complete with your condemnation as i was. [/I]

let's meet each other halfway and end this conversation on a positive note. because i'd be fine and content with that and i assume you would too. am i not being reasonable?[/QUOTE]

If there is intentional killing by Israel of innocent civilians, then of course it is wrong. I just don't see that. And with a nation like Israel being under the microscope as they are by the world community, you would think such events if they were taking place, would have garnered enough media attention and attention by world leaders for someone to do something about it.

Israel made a decision to wipe out Hamas at all costs. Where does Hamas hide? Under hospitals and residential buildings. Israel warns residents to vacate the area, while Hamas threatens them to stay in place.

So my argument would be, that it is Israel who is doing the most to save innocent lives, while Hamas are the ones repeatedly putting them in danger.

There is no alternative by the way in case you were wondering. If Israel doesn't cripple Hamas or kill it off completely, then they will eventually regroup and attack Israel again.

But yeah, all this talk of genocide by Israel is just done in attempt to elicit strong emotions by the poorly educated to come over to the pro-Palestinian side.

[QUOTE=Patrick Chewing;15009723]If there is intentional killing by Israel of innocent civilians, then of course it is wrong. [/QUOTE]

alright, let's toast to that then. i'm not gonna push
it any further than that because it won't lead anywhere good as i'm sure you'd agree. we don't see eye to eye on very much past this threshold. so cheers.

i'm not disregarding everything else you said btw, but this was all i was interested in.

[QUOTE=Patrick Chewing;15009723][B]If there is intentional killing by Israel of innocent civilians, then of course it is wrong. I just don't see that.[/B] [/QUOTE]

[B][SIZE=4]are you fukkin stupid? you [SIZE=7][U]400 pound[/U][/SIZE] retard.[/SIZE][/B]

[video=youtube;fgsK7noLGOM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgsK7noLGOM&ab_channel=PoliticsJOE[/video]

[SIZE=7]https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/9/6/uk-doctor-80-of-gaza-victims-i-treated-were[/SIZE]

[QUOTE]On his first visit to the Gaza Strip, Daniel Day-Lewis meets the Palestinian families living in the heart of the danger zone and the psychologists who are counselling them.

Mossa’ab, the interpreter, leads the way, carrying a white Medecins Sans Frontieres (MSF) flag. Its psychology team, myself and the photographer Tom Craig are in full view of an Israeli command post occupying the top floors of a large mill. It is draped in camouflage netting, as is the house close by. It is to this house that we are heading, across 200 yards of no man’s land; the last house left standing in an area once teeming with life.

Civilians have been the main victims of the violence inflicted by both sides in the Middle East conflict. In the Gaza Strip the Israeli army reacts to stone-throwing with bullets. It responds to the suicide bombs and attacks of Palestinian militants by bulldozing houses and olive groves in the search for the perpetrators, to punish their families, and to set up buffer zones to protect Israeli settlements. It bars access to villages, and multiplies checkpoints, cutting Gaza’s population off from the outside world. MSF’s psychologists are trying to help Palestinian families cope with the stress of living within these confines; visiting them, treating severe trauma and listening to their stories. Their visits are the only sign sometimes that they have not been abandoned.

Israel’s tanks and armour-plated bulldozers can come with no warning, often at night. The noise alone, to a people who have been forced to suffer these violations year after year, is enough to freeze the soul. Israeli snipers position themselves on rooftops. Householders are ordered to leave; they haven’t even the time to collect pots and pans, papers and clothes before the bulldozers crush the unprotected buildings like dinosaurs trampling on eggs ” sometimes first mashing one into another, then covering the remains with a scoop of earth. Those caught in the incursion zone will be fired on. Even those cowering inside their houses may be shot at or shelled through walls, windows and roofs. The white flag carried by humanitarian workers gives little protection; we’ll have warning shots fired at us twice before the week is out.

Sometimes a family will not leave an area that is being cleared, believing if they do leave they will lose everything. It is a huge risk to remain. Sometimes a house is left standing, singled out for occupation by Israeli troops. The family is forced to remain as protection for the soldiers. Last year an average of 120 houses were demolished each month, leaving 1,207 homeless every month. In the past four years 28,483 Gazans have been forcibly evicted; over half of Gaza’s usable land, mainly comprising citrus-fruit orchards, olive groves and strawberry beds, has been destroyed. Last year, 658 Palestinians were killed in the violence in Gaza, and dozens of Israelis. This ploughing under, house by house, orchard by orchard, reduces community to wasteland, strewn and embedded with a stunted crop of broken glass and nails, books, abandoned possessions. As we weave our way towards the home of Abu Saguer and his family ” one of several families we will visit today ” we are treading on shattered histories and aspirations.

Abu Saguer’s own house is still standing, but its top floor and roof are occupied by Israeli soldiers. His granddaughter Mervat is with us, a sweet, shy seven-year-old with red metal-rimmed glasses, her hair in two neat braids held by flowery bands. She wears bright-red trousers and a denim jacket. Last April her mother heard an Israeli Jeep pull up briefly at the military-access road in front of their house. Some projectile was fired and when Mervat reappeared ” she had been playing outside ” she was crying and her face was covered in blood. They washed her. Her right eye was crushed. A month later in Gaza an artificial eye was fitted. It was very uncomfortable, so a special recommendation was needed from the Palestinian Ministry of Health to finance a trip to Egypt for one that fitted properly. Mervat needs this eye changed every six months, so the ministry must negotiate with Israel each time for permission to cross the border. Fifty cars are permitted to cross each day; each must carry seven people.

Abu Saguer has five sons and four daughters “You’ll go broke with more than that,” he says. He lives near the big checkpoint of Abu Houli in southern Gaza. He wants the photographer, Tom Craig, to take his picture and put it on every wall in England, Germany and Russia. He is 59. At 12 he went out to work, and at 16 he began to build the house he had dreamt of, “slowly, slowly” as a home and as a gathering place for his extended family. He had grown up in a house made of mud in Khan Yunis, which let the water in whenever it rained, and all his pride, hope and generosity of spirit had invested itself in this ambition. He had worked in Israel, like so many here, before the borders were closed to all men aged between 16 and 35.

For over 20 years, Abu Saguer had his own business, selling and transporting bamboo furniture. During the second Gulf war all his merchandise was stolen. After that he relied on his truck for income. He had cultivated 300 square metres of olive trees, pomegranates, palms, guavas and lemons in the fields around his home. After the start of the second intifada (Palestinian uprising) his crops were destroyed by the Israeli army ” for “security”. A road that services the Israeli settlements of Gush Katif had been built, and during our visit the traffic passes freely backwards and forwards, along the edge of the barren land where his orchards once flourished.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=diamenz;15009738]alright, let's toast to that then. i'm not gonna push
it any further than that because it won't lead anywhere good as i'm sure you'd agree. we don't see eye to eye on very much past this threshold. so cheers.

i'm not disregarding everything else you said btw, but this was all i was interested in.[/QUOTE]

why are you afraid to call him out for what his fatass is? he's a dumbass.

[QUOTE=highwhey;15009746]why are you afraid to call him out for what his fatass is? he's a dumbass.[/QUOTE]

sometimes you have to take what you can get and just rest with it bro. this subject has worn me out at this point and makes me depressed when i talk about it. i just wanna be through with it and rest knowing and believing he takes issue with 30,000 dead children. that's all you're gonna get sometimes bro. trying to change people's minds on this subject is wasted energy. i'll leave that to you guys if you wanna go that route.