In my opinion, Peak Miami LeBron is a more complete PF/SF than current Shai is a PG/SG. And in general, irrelevant of position. Positionally speaking, it's close; non-positionally? Comfortably James.
Printable View
In my opinion, Peak Miami LeBron is a more complete PF/SF than current Shai is a PG/SG. And in general, irrelevant of position. Positionally speaking, it's close; non-positionally? Comfortably James.
The video that 1987_Lakers posted is by Ben Taylor from Thinking Basketball. Ben's view on Jordan's defense is very nuanced. It's not like he is hating on MJ. He said he is a clearly positive defender but has problematic tendencies particularly gambling for steals which my own eye test confirmed. MJ did at times gamble for steals which led to defensive breakdowns. No doubt about it. But that doesn't mean he still wasn't a great defender. He was.
Was he better than top tier defensive bigs like Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing? Of course not. But that's a standard that no non-big could ever meet. MJ is still an elite perimeter defender but perimeter guys just don't touch bigs in terms of impact.
[QUOTE=dankok8;15013388]The video that 1987_Lakers posted is by Ben Taylor from Thinking Basketball. Ben's view on Jordan's defense is very nuanced. It's not like he is hating on MJ. He said he is a clearly positive defender but has problematic tendencies particularly gambling for steals which my own eye test confirmed. MJ did at times gamble for steals which led to defensive breakdowns. No doubt about it. But that doesn't mean he still wasn't a great defender. He was.
Was he better than top tier defensive bigs like Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing? Of course not. But that's a standard that no non-big could ever meet. MJ is still an elite perimeter defender but perimeter guys just don't touch bigs in terms of impact.[/QUOTE]
Correct. Ben Taylor basically still calls him an All-NBA defender, just not all-time great.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15013368]Ben Taylor and his team watched over 200 MJ games to confirm this, he wasn't just nitpicking games. We saw Kobe make 12 All-Defensive teams, most of them were undeserving, I really don't put much stock into how high he finished into DPOY voting, we all know about his case in '88 where he was gifted fake steals and blocks to win the award. (Hakeem was more deserving that year)
We saw a 35 year old MJ finish 4th in DPOY voting in '98, over Tim Duncan
We saw him finish 2nd in '93, over David Robinson and Patrick Ewing who anchored a historic defense that year.
I'm supposed to believe these votings are accurate? LOL[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but you're once again showing how you're agenda driven.
1- I didn't argue the entirety of MJ's career. You conveniently highlighted 1998 whereas I mentioned '88-'93.
2- You then specify 1988, but only to tear down the DPOY. Nowhere did I say he in fact deserved it over Hakeem. I don't care that his steals and blocks may have been inflated. That wasn't my point. The point is that he was an elite defender between '88-'93.
You're focusing on the DPOY, meanwhile in '87 he averaged nearly the same amount of steals and blocks (2.9/1.5) without the discrepancy. In fact, he averaged almost the same amount of blocks that season whether home or away.
The DPOY award doesn't matter to me. I merely said he consistently finished top 5 [I]because[/I] he was an elite defensive player.
3- Where does Taylor say he was an overrated defensive player, or that he wasn't great? Maybe I missed it.
4- You're mentioning '93 like I believe he was the best. I don't. That's why I put in parenthesis (irrespective of truth). I'm saying this is how he was viewed. It's why when Phil wanted to stop KJ from lighting up in the finals, he switched MJ onto him and KJ got shudown. Mike Fratello in the telecast goes onto say, "they put the best defensive player in the league on Kevin Johnson...."
Was he [I]actually[/I] the best defensive player? No. I don't believe he was. But that's about all there was to the extent of him being "overrated."
But that's not what you're interested in. You [I]want[/I] to make yourself believe that MJ was just an ordinary defensive player and maybe even just "good." To you, overrated is merely because of accolades being awarded, not actual impact on the game.
[QUOTE=dankok8;15013388]The video that 1987_Lakers posted is by Ben Taylor from Thinking Basketball. Ben's view on Jordan's defense is very nuanced. It's not like he is hating on MJ. He said he is a clearly positive defender but has problematic tendencies particularly gambling for steals which my own eye test confirmed. MJ did at times gamble for steals which led to defensive breakdowns. No doubt about it. But that doesn't mean he still wasn't a great defender. He was.
Was he better than top tier defensive bigs like Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing? Of course not. But that's a standard that no non-big could ever meet. MJ is still an elite perimeter defender but perimeter guys just don't touch bigs in terms of impact.[/QUOTE]
Right, but even then, I think Taylor is forgetting the type of defensive schemes that Chicago played, and the fact that Chicago didn't have elite shot blocking and relied a lot on three quarter court and full court presses.
Chicago's perimeter defenders were in your face from the jump (at least in the 3peat years) to make it difficult to develop entry passes. MJ lurked on the wings a lot but had the lateral quickness and speed for help defense, but gambled a lot [I]because[/I] he was that good at recovering for help defense.
I believe it speaks more about the style of Chicago's defensive schemes than it did about MJ's passing lane gambles.
Either way, Taylor isn't tearing MJ down, he's simply being critical of where MJ's defense showed to have some negative impact. But it's a far cry from what 1987 is consistently trying to do.
[QUOTE=HoopsNY;15013394]
Either way, Taylor isn't tearing MJ down, he's simply being critical of where MJ's defense showed to have some negative impact. But it's a far cry from what 1987 is consistently trying to do.[/QUOTE]
My only statement is that he was overrated defensively, and you basically proved my point. You had Mike Fratello calling him the best defender in the league in 1993, when Hakeem was at his absolute peak at that end and who many consider the best defender since the merger. My points about the DPOY voting in 1993 & 1998 kind of prove my point as well.
Not to mention you have articles today naming MJ the GOAT defender
[url]https://clutchpoints.com/nba/nba-stories/25-greatest-defenders-nba-history-ranked[/url]
This one shows how overrated he is by fans, they have MJ ahead of guys like KG, Duncan, & Robinson.
[url]https://www.ranker.com/list/the-best-nba-defensive-players-of-all-time-v1/jeffnorth[/url]
I feel for the most part, most media/fans will have MJ as a top 10 defender ever. And that to me tells me he is overrated on that end, because he doesn't sniff the top 10.
He is the GOAT offensive player and an All-NBA defender, but nowhere near as impactful defensively as the other all-time great defenders.
Not even close.
LBJ is "generational" talent.
SGA is not.
The thread should've been [b]SGA already better than EuroTrash, Luka[/b].
[QUOTE=gengiskhan;15013399]Not even close.
LBJ is "generational" talent.
SGA is not.
The thread should've been [b]SGA already better than EuroTrash, Luka[/b].[/QUOTE]
He's better than both of them.
And the "generational" talent is also the biggest choker in the history of the sport.
The funny thing is if you watched the game, Indiana was hunting SGA on defense, similar to how the Cavs hunted Curry during their Finals. OKC is loaded with defenders so it makes sense to go at SGA, but this is the best two way player "since Jordan"?? A guy who gets hunted on defense??
Players were scared to go at peak LeBron.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15014372]The funny thing is if you watched the game, Indiana was hunting SGA on defense, similar to how the Cavs hunted Curry during their Finals. OKC is loaded with defenders so it makes sense to go at SGA, but this is the best two way player "since Jordan"?? A guy who gets hunted on defense??
Players were scared to go at peak LeBron.[/QUOTE]
KD, even in 2012, went at Bron in the Finals and there was nothing Bron could do to stop him lol.
They're not hunting SGA because he's not a good defender, they're going at him to make him work harder so he's less effective overall. I'm sure you knew that already.
[video]https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2BF_KRNCzRM[/video]
In defense of Lebron...I'm not going to forget the double no call. If this series goes seven...I don't know
[QUOTE=ImKobe;15014396]KD, even in 2012, went at Bron in the Finals and there was nothing Bron could do to stop him lol.
They're not hunting SGA because he's not a good defender, they're going at him to make him work harder so he's less effective overall.[B] I'm sure you knew that already.[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure he didn't know that already. He's not very smart, and he obviously feels threatened by SGA, knowing that he's already better than peak Lebron. Good job trying to educate him though. You're spot on. They're also hunting him hoping he gets into foul trouble.
[QUOTE=ImKobe;15014396]KD, even in 2012, went at Bron in the Finals and there was nothing Bron could do to stop him lol.
They're not hunting SGA because he's not a good defender, they're going at him to make him work harder so he's less effective overall. I'm sure you knew that already.[/QUOTE]
He's Kevin Durant, but KD got most of his numbers in garbage time in those Finals. LeBron actually did a good job on him. And they are going at SGA because he is their weakest perimeter defender, doesn't make him a bad defender, but nonetheless they are attacking him. Calling SGA the best two way player in the last 30 years or so is flat out one of the dumbest things I have ever heard on this site.
[video=youtube;d8x8BGcFYJE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8x8BGcFYJE[/video]
[QUOTE=ImKobe;15014396][B]KD, even in 2012, went at Bron in the Finals and there was nothing Bron could do to stop him lol. [/B]
They're not hunting SGA because he's not a good defender, they're going at him to make him work harder so he's less effective overall. I'm sure you knew that already.[/QUOTE]
Is that how you remember it? :lol
He scored on Bron for sure. He was an unstoppable scorer lol.
Certainly didn't 'hunt" for that matchup lol
[QUOTE=HoopsNY;15013393]Sorry, but you're once again showing how you're agenda driven.
1- I didn't argue the entirety of MJ's career. You conveniently highlighted 1998 whereas I mentioned '88-'93.
2- You then specify 1988, but only to tear down the DPOY. Nowhere did I say he in fact deserved it over Hakeem. I don't care that his steals and blocks may have been inflated. That wasn't my point. The point is that he was an elite defender between '88-'93.
You're focusing on the DPOY, meanwhile in '87 he averaged nearly the same amount of steals and blocks (2.9/1.5) without the discrepancy. In fact, he averaged almost the same amount of blocks that season whether home or away.
The DPOY award doesn't matter to me. I merely said he consistently finished top 5 [I]because[/I] he was an elite defensive player.
3- Where does Taylor say he was an overrated defensive player, or that he wasn't great? Maybe I missed it.
4- You're mentioning '93 like I believe he was the best. I don't. That's why I put in parenthesis (irrespective of truth). I'm saying this is how he was viewed. It's why when Phil wanted to stop KJ from lighting up in the finals, he switched MJ onto him and KJ got shudown. Mike Fratello in the telecast goes onto say, "they put the best defensive player in the league on Kevin Johnson...."
Was he [I]actually[/I] the best defensive player? No. I don't believe he was. But that's about all there was to the extent of him being "overrated."
But that's not what you're interested in. You [I]want[/I] to make yourself believe that MJ was just an ordinary defensive player and maybe even just "good." To you, overrated is merely because of accolades being awarded, not actual impact on the game.[/QUOTE]
Good post
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15014414]He's Kevin Durant, but KD got most of his numbers in garbage time in those Finals. LeBron actually did a good job on him. And they are going at SGA because he is their weakest perimeter defender, doesn't make him a bad defender, but nonetheless they are attacking him. Calling SGA the best two way player in the last 30 years or so is flat out one of the dumbest things I have ever heard on this site.
[/QUOTE]
Translation: "I'm angry!! Full Court said SGA was better than my sweet prince!!!! :cry:"
:roll: Just cry it out, Dudley.
:lebroncry:
And here's a pro tip for you. AI tools are getting very capable. You can try using them to figure out what an advanced stat is. :roll:
[QUOTE=Full Court;15013301]^Incredibly low IQ take. OKC didn't draft a lot of their players. No team has drafted all their players. [b]Organic means they developed their players rather than hunting for stars.[/b] Glad I could educate you.[/QUOTE]
No it doesn't.... your dumbass thought SGA was drafted by OKC :oldlol:
[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15014577]No it doesn't.... your dumbass thought SGA was drafted by OKC :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
:roll:
[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15014577]No it doesn't.... your dumbass thought SGA was drafted by OKC :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Nice strawman. You don't know what "organic" means just like Dudley doesn't know what an advanced stat is.
Bronie fluffers = lowest IQ demographic on earth. :lol
[QUOTE=Full Court;15014584]Nice strawman. You don't know what "organic" means just like Dudley doesn't know what an advanced stat is.
Bronie fluffers = lowest IQ demographic on earth. :lol[/QUOTE]
get a life loser.
such a weird dude.
[QUOTE=red1;15015001]get a life loser.
such a weird dude.[/QUOTE]
^Tells Full Court to get a life....while melting down because SGA is better than his sweet prince. :roll:
Cry it out, cupcake.
apu1 will stan lebron over his canadian boys
dude is a loser cuck
LeBronze nut huggers fuming in this thread.
Facts hurt :(
[QUOTE=warriorfan;15015011]apu1 will stan lebron over his canadian boys
dude is a loser cuck[/QUOTE]
I knew that useless gobshite was from Brampton! LMAO
[IMG]https://media.tenor.com/mRU5ypGWaKwAAAAM/indian.gif[/IMG]
He's the best ball-dominator in a league of ball-dominators.
But in prior eras, we saw another ball-dominator in Lebron have a lottery record against ball movement teams like the Warriors, Spurs, Magic and Mavs, so SGA would have this same fate if there were more ball movement teams today... But in a league of ball-dominators, one of them has to win .. :confusedshrug:... This is why SGA is the first ball-dominator to win with "organic" roster of 1 franchise player... (although Jaylen is probably headed towards franchise player status).
[QUOTE=3ba11;15015118]He's the best ball-dominator in a league of ball-dominators.
But in prior eras, we saw another ball-dominator in Lebron have a lottery record against ball movement teams like the Warriors, Spurs, Magic and Mavs, so SGA would have this same fate if there were more ball movement teams today... But in a league of ball-dominators, one of them has to win .. :confusedshrug:... This is why SGA is the first ball-dominator to win with "organic" roster of 1 franchise player... (although Jaylen is probably headed towards franchise player status).[/QUOTE]
You are crying more tears because you are wrong once again. Plenty of non-ball dominant teams exist and lost in these playoffs :lol
The Pacers themselves lead the league is passes/ball movement per game and play a high assist style offense. You are just dumb because you don't factor in defense at all. Thunder aren't winning because of SGA, they win because they have a top 3 defense since 2000...
[QUOTE=Full Court;15015004]^Tells Full Court to get a life....while melting down because SGA is better than his sweet prince. :roll:
Cry it out, cupcake.[/QUOTE]
I'm making money and I look great and I get all the hoes
I'm doing alright son
how about you?
dont lie to yourself.
just look in the mirror and tell the truth. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=bullettooth;15015097]LeBronze nut huggers fuming in this thread.
Facts hurt :([/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=warriorfan;15015011]apu1 will stan lebron over his canadian boys
dude is a loser cuck[/QUOTE]
this website is where broke losers hate on 40 year old billionaires because they arent even worth $100k :oldlol:
you losers just live on your keyboards obsessed with a man who's literally just better than you at life :oldlol:
sad story. :cheers:
[QUOTE=red1;15015233]this website is where broke losers hate on 40 year old billionaires because they arent even worth $100k :oldlol:
you losers just live on your keyboards obsessed with a man who's literally just better than you at life :oldlol:
sad story. :cheers:[/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/MTHP0YM4/derp.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=bullettooth;15015247][IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/MTHP0YM4/derp.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Young Apu has 100,000k rupees
[QUOTE=red1;15015232]I'm making money and I look great and I get all the hoes
I'm doing alright son
how about you?
dont lie to yourself.
just look in the mirror and tell the truth. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
You sound really insecure. "Oooo oooo ooo, I need to try to convince people on a forum that I'm successful. I need them to believe meee!!!"
Major loser vibes. No wonder you're a Bronie fluffer. Yep, checks out. Losers gravitate toward other losers. :lol
[QUOTE=3ba11;15015118]He's the best ball-dominator in a league of ball-dominators.
But in prior eras, we saw another ball-dominator in Lebron have a lottery record against ball movement teams like the Warriors, Spurs, Magic and Mavs, so SGA would have this same fate if there were more ball movement teams today... But in a league of ball-dominators, one of them has to win .. :confusedshrug:... This is why SGA is the first ball-dominator to win with "organic" roster of 1 franchise player... (although Jaylen is probably headed towards franchise player status).[/QUOTE]
SGA is not a ball dominator in the sense that Lebron or Luka are. OKC plays really good team ball, and they have their share of good ball movement, even if it's not to the level of Kerr's Warriors. It's a great team system they have going.
[QUOTE=Full Court;15015268]SGA is not a ball dominator in the sense that Lebron or Luka are. OKC plays really good team ball, and they have their share of good ball movement, even if it's not to the level of Kerr's Warriors. It's a great team system they have going.[/QUOTE]
SGA was more of a ball dominator than Luka & LeBron this season.
[url]https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=D&sort=AVG_DRIB_PER_TOUCH[/url]
Brunson & SGA led the league in average dribbles per touch & average seconds per touch.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15015273]SGA was more of a ball dominator than Luka & LeBron this season.
[url]https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=D&sort=AVG_DRIB_PER_TOUCH[/url]
Brunson & SGA led the league in average dribbles per touch & average seconds per touch.[/QUOTE]
Just another case of you not knowing what you're watching. All you can do is pull up a stat, that is no more than marginally relevant in this case, and not understand any context behind it.
[QUOTE=Full Court;15015275]Just another case of you not knowing what you're watching. All you can do is pull up a stat, that is no more than marginally relevant in this case, and not understand any context behind it.[/QUOTE]
Just another case of you going with old narratives without having a clue to what is going on today.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15015278]Just another case of you going with old narratives without having a clue to what is going on today.[/QUOTE]
How much credibility would you give someone who says the 2020 Heat are better than the 2025 Pacers?
Oh wait....it was you that said that. :roll:
Dumb dumb Dudley. Using a silly stat that shows Curry having 1/2 of a dribble less per touch than Donovan Mitchell as the single measure of ball dominance. :roll: Tom Brady-esque.
[QUOTE=Full Court;15015279]How much credibility would you give someone who says the 2020 Heat are better than the 2025 Pacers?
Oh wait....it was you that said that. :roll:
Dumb dumb Dudley. Using a silly stat that shows Curry having 1/2 of a dribble less per touch than Donovan Mitchell as the single measure of ball dominance. :roll: Tom Brady-esque.[/QUOTE]
Yes, both teams (Miami & Indiana) won 2 games in the Finals (so far). So I don't see a problem with my statement.
You on the other hand thought OKC had a 3-1 lead last night. :lol
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15015280][B][SIZE=4]Yes, both teams (Miami & Indiana) won 2 games in the Finals (so far). So I don't see a problem with my statement.
[/SIZE][/B]
You on the other hand thought OKC had a 3-1 lead last night. :lol[/QUOTE]
This is exactly the kind of idiotic statement that gives you your reputation on here for being a low IQ moron. Absolutely zero ability to critically think. :lol
Proof that being a Bronie fluffer deteriorates your brain. :confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=Full Court;15015299]This is exactly the kind of idiotic statement that gives you your reputation on here for being a low IQ moron. Absolutely zero ability to critically think. :lol
Proof that being a Bronie fluffer deteriorates your brain. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?514823-Dumbest-Poster-on-ISH-2023-Edition[/url]
/thread
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15015280]Yes, both teams (Miami & Indiana) won 2 games in the Finals (so far). So I don't see a problem with my statement.
You on the other hand thought OKC had a 3-1 lead last night. :lol[/QUOTE]
With Bam out it was a joke. The Heat were at the bottom of their gas tank. Indiana looks to be there too.