Can someone explain to me how MJ finished 2nd in DPOY voting in 1993?

[QUOTE=GOBB;15015022]Yes because you vividly remember how MJ played that season defensively 32 years ago. OP is agenda driven because he wants to convince others MJ was an overrated defender. But I’m pretty sure he saw MJ in 93. You’ll be lucky for anyone to recall that season in its entirety to not only see MJ but the league in general. Sit this one bud.[/QUOTE]

I do.

Do you?

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15015038]I do.

Do you?[/QUOTE]

Who did MJ guard in the 11th game of that season? How did he do defensively? What happened?

Stop lying. You dudes are so weird here. 32yrs ago seems like yesterday huh? What did you have for breakfast that morning on the day MJ was playing ha 11th game that you remember?

Stfu idiot

[IMG]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/68/a4/1b/68a41ba32ef9eee4ec5f806ac1dff394.gif[/IMG]

Should had won, he was voted #1 by the coaches.

[QUOTE=GOBB;15015046]Who did MJ guard in the 11th game of that season? How did he do defensively? What happened?

Stop lying. You dudes are so weird here. 32yrs ago seems like yesterday huh? What did you have for breakfast that morning on the day MJ was playing ha 11th game that you remember?

Stfu idiot[/QUOTE]

You don’t know shit about basketball

[QUOTE=Meticode;15014711]Hakeem's Defensive Rating in 1993: 96.1 (2nd in NBA)
Jordan's Defensive Rating in 1993: 102.4 (11th in NBA)

...maybe I'm in the minority, but I feel team success on defense isn't as weighted as heavily as some people think in a player winning Defensive Player of the Year. Depends on the year/season too.[/QUOTE]

DRTG wasn't a thing in '93
League Pass and Basketball-Reference did not exist
Bulls were more visible than any other team in the league and on their way to a 3rd title so MJ got votes off being MJ, and he led the league in steals so that probably got him votes as well.

1989 Rockets
Hakeem: 95 DRTG
Thorpe (#2 guy in that stat): 106 DRTG

1993 Rockets
Hakeem: 96 DRTG
Horry (#2 guy): 105 DRTG

1992 Spurs
Robinson: 94 DRTG
Sidney Green (#2 guy): 103 DRTG

This is all-time defensive impact.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15014909]Since Gobb has such a hard on for defensive metrics here you go.

1993 Defensive Win Shares leaders
1. Patrick Ewing
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. David Robinson
4. Shaq
5. Mutombo

Defensive Box Plus/Minus
1. Nate McMillan
2. Doc Rivers
3. Hakeem
4. Greg Anthony
5. David Robinson

Defensive Rating (Players who are good in this stat usually means they played for a good defensive team)
1. Patrick Ewing
2. Hakeem
3. Oakley
4. Rivers
5. Greg Anthony

MJ wasn't top 5 in any of these categories.[/QUOTE]

This isn't uncommon. Go through a lot of great defensive players' careers and you'll see many of them not be in the top 5 of these categories for a single season. Ron Artest comes to mind in 2006.

It's also not surprising that Chicago remained a good defensive team following MJ's departure. Pippen was rested during the summer of '93 unlike the previous year where he played in the Olympics, regular season, and playoffs. He played through the season with a bad ankle and that clearly affected his play (and Chicago went from winning 67 games to 57).

Grant, Pippen, and Armstrong all entered their peaks. Armstrong was a underrated scrappy defender. But Pippen and Grant were at their best.

Kawhi won DPOY in 2016. In 2017, he finished 3rd in voting but didn't finish top 5 in any of those categories you mentioned. He was injured for nearly all of the next season, but SAS still finished 3rd in defense.

There were 7 missed games for MJ between '89-'93; Chicago's DRTG in those games was something like 115. It was around 107 with him. This trend more or less remained the same in 1993. It's a very small sample size, but I think they would have faired similarly in 1993 with a large enough sample.

MJ '88-'93 had an insane motor and was an absolute pest defensively. I don't really recall much of '93 but I do remember uncles saying MJ could cover the whole court if he wanted to. MJ was a menace and elite on both on the ball and help defense.

That being said, I don't believe he was as good defensively as a David Robinson just because bigs were more impactful by default.

[QUOTE=GOBB;15014857]Hello? Hello?[/QUOTE]

You should’ve sat this thread out on page 1 when you didn’t even wtf SRS was.

Insane to keep arguing based on those first retarded posts.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15015014][b]Eye test. [/b]

OP literally never watched basketball in 1993.[/QUOTE]

[b]1993: GOAT and Bull's Elite "doborman" defense[/b]

[video=youtube;g9w6DV8dHc0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9w6DV8dHc0[/video]


[b]1993: Insane GOAT doing it all individually despite 1992 Olympics Fatigue.

Just killing himself. This could've easily affected his 32 PPG @52%FG [/b]

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/shorts/s_cpmkhkktk"]https://www.youtube.com/shorts/s_cpmkhkktk[/URL]

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8VycUksCutA"]https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8VycUksCutA[/URL]



[b] 2004 DPOY Ron Artest on GOAT's Defense[/b]

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3zItoE33I1U"]https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3zItoE33I1U[/URL]

[QUOTE=999Guy;15015108]You should’ve sat this thread out on page 1 when you didn’t even wtf SRS was.

Insane to keep arguing based on those first retarded posts.[/QUOTE]

I figured the SOS and the fact folks spoke on the schedule not being strong in 94 vs 93 meant something. Folks being I did a search on the 94 vs 93 Bulls comparison. I was aware of the offensive factor but still thought SOS weighed heavily in it. It’s a stat I never used nor cared to use until now. Should’ve never introduced it to be honest. I’ll hold that L. You can let go of my nuts now.


Oh wait you quoted my hello hello post in reference to me asking how was Rodman more deserving given he played less games than Jordan that year. He replied and said he couldn’t say for sure Rodman was better vs his prior comment. That’s good enough for me. So yeah why did I keep going asking valid questions from that point on? Yeah you should go back to whatever username you normally reply with. Sit this one out champ

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;15015103]Kawhi won DPOY in 2016. [B]In 2017, he finished 3rd in voting but didn't finish top 5 in any of those categories you mentioned. [/B]He was injured for nearly all of the next season, but SAS still finished 3rd in defense. [/QUOTE]

Makes sense. Spurs were better without Kawhi on defense in 2017, so I don't expect him to be top 5 in any of those categories.

[U]2017 Spurs[/U]
104.7 DRTG with Kawhi
98.7 DRTG without Kawhi in 8 games.

By 2017, Kawhi took more of an offensive role so he was no longer the defensive beast he was in 2015 & 2016.

People don't realize how short Kawhi's defensive peak was.

Better defensively without him yet wasn't enough to avoid a sweep by the warriors once he went down during the first game of the 2017 wcf.

The individual DRtg stat on Basketball-Reference isn't actually Defensive Rating i.e. points allowed per 100 possessions when on the court. It's a box score metric and isn't based on plus minus in any sort of way. Just thought I'd clarify that because people are using it in this thread like it's actual DRtg.

But yea Jordan in 1993 is obviously not a top 2 defender in the league by impact. That's kind of obvious. Not sure why we needed a million thread on the subject but maybe that's just me.

[QUOTE=dankok8;15015353]The individual DRtg stat on Basketball-Reference isn't actually Defensive Rating i.e. points allowed per 100 possessions when on the court. It's a box score metric and isn't based on plus minus in any sort of way. Just thought I'd clarify that because people are using it in this thread like it's actual DRtg.

But yea Jordan in 1993 is obviously not a top 2 defender in the league by impact. That's kind of obvious. Not sure why we needed a million thread on the subject but maybe that's just me.[/QUOTE]

Because 1987 wants to find a way to not only overrate him but also make it seem as if he wasn't that good of a defensive player. It's the LeBron stan tactic in him.

[QUOTE=dankok8;15015353]The individual DRtg stat on Basketball-Reference isn't actually Defensive Rating i.e. points allowed per 100 possessions when on the court. It's a box score metric and isn't based on plus minus in any sort of way. Just thought I'd clarify that because people are using it in this thread like it's actual DRtg.

But yea Jordan in 1993 is obviously not a top 2 defender in the league by impact. That's kind of obvious. Not sure why we needed a million thread on the subject but maybe that's just me.[/QUOTE]

You're absolutely correct about this btw and not sure why we're putting that much emphasis on it. I guess it's all we have to assess it? What would be better way of doing it? Maybe dRAPM? We won't have those statistics from that far back though.

[QUOTE=dankok8;15015353]The individual DRtg stat on Basketball-Reference isn't actually Defensive Rating i.e. points allowed per 100 possessions when on the court. It's a box score metric and isn't based on plus minus in any sort of way. Just thought I'd clarify that because people are using it in this thread like it's actual DRtg.

But yea Jordan in 1993 is obviously not a top 2 defender in the league by impact. That's kind of obvious. Not sure why we needed a million thread on the subject but maybe that's just me.[/QUOTE]

Really? A million threads on it? Another poster recently made a thread on the ‘93 Dpoy voting? I wasn’t aware.

[QUOTE=dankok8;15015353]The individual DRtg stat on Basketball-Reference isn't actually Defensive Rating i.e. points allowed per 100 possessions when on the court. It's a box score metric and isn't based on plus minus in any sort of way. Just thought I'd clarify that because people are using it in this thread like it's actual DRtg.

But yea Jordan in 1993 is obviously not a top 2 defender in the league by impact. That's kind of obvious. Not sure why we needed a million thread on the subject but maybe that's just me.[/QUOTE]

Interesting

[QUOTE=gengiskhan;15014745][SIZE=4][U][b]1993 nba steals leader

1993 nba best defender in the league voted by nba head coaches[/b][/U][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

We've then gotta ask ourselves are the steals in question actually legit? Or are they the "i take care of Mike's stats" special?

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15015716]We've then gotta ask ourselves are the steals in question actually legit? Or are they the "i take care of Mike's stats" special?[/QUOTE]

:lol

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15015718]:lol[/QUOTE]

I've actually come to a fork in the morality road so to speak. What's worse? Getting ped enhanced stats like Barry Bonds? Or getting ghost stats that never happened.....I mean bonds actually hit all those balls still meanwhile Mj was getting credited for steals because the ball rolled up to his feet on the bench lol.