[QUOTE=warriorfan;15018372]You are low iq and don’t understand how offense influences defense.[/QUOTE]
You are low IQ who doesn't know how to refute what I said.
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[QUOTE=warriorfan;15018372]You are low iq and don’t understand how offense influences defense.[/QUOTE]
You are low IQ who doesn't know how to refute what I said.
[QUOTE=97 bulls;15018393]How did Green make the list over Pippen?[/QUOTE]
Better at guarding 1-5
Better rim protector
Better off-ball defender
Just a bit more versatile and more of an anchor. Steve Kerr played with peak Pippen and has said Draymond is the better defender.
no wind defenders?
[QUOTE=diamenz;15018486]no wind defenders?[/QUOTE]
Damn, you went way back in time. I remember that thread from around 2015. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018478]Better at guarding 1-5
Better rim protector
Better off-ball defender
Just a bit more versatile and more of an anchor. Steve Kerr played with peak Pippen and has said Draymond is the better defender.[/QUOTE]
Toughest era to defend in.. only 1 from that era top 10? :facepalm
[QUOTE=Xiao Yao You;15018496]Toughest era to defend in.. only 1 from that era top 10? :facepalm[/QUOTE]
Can't quit me.
Not trying to :coleman:
KG over Ben Wallace too, how?
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;15018548]KG over Ben Wallace too, how?[/QUOTE]
KG was a much better man defender & more versatile. Wallace was obviously the better rim protector, but there was a lot to be desired with his man defense mostly because of his size. You could argue they had similar peaks in terms of impact, might even say Wallace was more impactful, but KG's defensive prime was much longer. There was a 6 year stretch or so when Ben Wallace was a top tier defender, KG was a defensive menace for 12+ years.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018580]KG was a much better man defender & more versatile. Wallace was obviously the better rim protector, but there was a lot to be desired with his man defense mostly because of his size. You could argue they had similar peaks in terms of impact, might even say Wallace was more impactful, but KG's defensive prime was much longer. There was a 6 year stretch or so when Ben Wallace was a top tier defender, KG was a defensive menace for 12+ years.[/QUOTE]
You literally said Ben Wallace was more impactful. KG miss be paying you under the table to be ranked over Wilt and Big Ben Wallace.
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;15018618]You literally said Ben Wallace was more impactful. KG miss be paying you under the table to be ranked over Wilt and Big Ben Wallace.[/QUOTE]
KG was more impactful for more years.
If I just ignored longevity, I would have listed Walton. Easily would have made top 5.
[video=youtube;EYYR4imoi-I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYYR4imoi-I[/video]
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018619]KG was more impactful for more years.
If I just ignored longevity, I would have listed Walton. Easily would have made top 5.[/QUOTE]
Don't you list McHale over Karl Malone due to one season lol.
What's more impactful than Ben's defense. He won 4 DPOY, twice back to back. They were in the NBA Finals or Conference Finals the seasons he won the award. Funny enough the years he comes in 2nd the Pistons win the championship.
What's more impactful than that?
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;15018623]Don't you list McHale over Karl Malone due to one season lol.
What's more impactful than Ben's defense. He won 4 DPOY, twice back to back. They were in the NBA Finals or Conference Finals the seasons he won the award. Funny enough the years he comes in 2nd the Pistons win the championship.
What's more impactful than that?[/QUOTE]
I don't have McHale ranked ahead of Malone as a player, if we are talking peaks though. I'm taking McHale.
Duncan never won a DPOY award. Should he be left off the list? I already gave you my reasoning. Wallace was an elite defender for 6 years, both Duncan and KG dominated on defense from their early 20's well into their mid 30's. Hell, I remember Duncan getting DPOY buzz well into his late 30's.
The fact that I have Ben Wallace at #7 with such a short defensive prime compared to other bigs should already tell you how much I value his defense.
Let's see your top 10.
[url=https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRPZqPRPHIF2xVI5uiUFQ7DcZyo3SNqMMQAlw&usqp=CAU][img]https://assets-cms.thescore.com/uploads/image/file/769159/w640xh480_GettyImages-2197302625.jpg?ts=1738820343[/img][/url]
He's a great player but why isn't he included in your top 10? He's been said to be the best two-way player the league has seen in the modern era.
[B][size=1]At least according to the most narcissistic homocasual itb.[/b][/size]
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018628]I don't have McHale ranked ahead of Malone as a player, if we are talking peaks though. I'm taking McHale.
Duncan never won a DPOY award. Should he be left off the list? I already gave you my reasoning. Wallace was an elite defender for 6 years, both Duncan and KG dominated on defense from their early 20's well into their mid 30's. Hell, I remember Duncan getting DPOY buzz well into his late 30's.
The fact that I have Ben Wallace at #7 with such a short defensive prime compared to other bigs should already tell you how much I value his defense.
Let's see your top 10.[/QUOTE]
Russell
Wilt
Hakeem
Wallace
Mutombo
Duncan
Robinson
Dwight
Thurmond
Garnett
Right below
Rodman
Zo
Giannis
Draymond
Ewing
Didn't do any wings/guards
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018309]I have a hard time ranking Wilt defensively. I tried to take defensive longevity into consideration in these rankings and Wilt in particular didn't peak until the 2nd half of his career on that end, even then there are some things I question about that time frame.
- Lakers didn't see much improvement on the defensive end when they added him in 1969.
- Lakers had a top 4 defense in 1970 with Wilt only playing 12 games that season
- Lakers had an average defense in 1971 with Wilt playing 82 games
Just some inconsistencies that make me question if he deserves top 10.
Someone like Dwight Howard at his defensive peak was leading a below average cast defensively to a top 1-3 on defense for 3 straight years.[/QUOTE]
Even when Wilt left Warriors to Philly in the middle of 1965, it didn't seem Philly improved their defense nor Warriors defense got worse that season. You'd think a defensive monster with 10+ blocks a game playing 44+ minutes a game would improve defense.
Such strange case.
To make the [B]John Stockton[/B] argument...why do blocks count more than steals? If you are getting possessions through turnovers that is successful defense.
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;15018696]Russell
Wilt
Hakeem
Wallace
Mutombo
Duncan
Robinson
Dwight
Thurmond
Garnett
Right below
Rodman
Zo
Giannis
Draymond
Ewing
Didn't do any wings/guards[/QUOTE]
Wilt at #2 is insane. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=iamgine;15018698]Even when Wilt left Warriors to Philly in the middle of 1965, it didn't seem Philly improved their defense nor Warriors defense got worse that season. You'd think a defensive monster with 10+ blocks a game playing 44+ minutes a game would improve defense.
Such strange case.[/QUOTE]
Strange case indeed.
1965
Warriors full season: 87.7 ORtg, 92.8 DRtg
Warriors with Wilt: 90.3 ORtg, 94.4 DRtg
Warriors without Wilt: 86.2 ORtg, 92.3 DRtg
Sixers full season: 94.1 ORtg, 94.2 DRtg
Sixers with Wilt: 94.7 ORtg, 94.5 DRtg
Sixers without Wilt: 93.5 ORtg, 93.9 DRtg
I really don't understand it, Wilt made both teams worse on defense :oldlol:
To me, the only years where it seemed Wilt played some ATG defense was in '67, '68, '72, & '73.
Wilt at number two insane how?
If they kept blocked shots as a stat, he'd easily be number 1 plus he's number one in rebounds by a wide margin.
He's also number 5 in defense win shares. Do with that information what you'd like.
Wilt didn't even make the All-Defensive team (1st or 2nd team) in 1969 & 1971. :lol
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018722]Wilt at #2 is insane. :oldlol:
Strange case indeed.
1965
Warriors full season: 87.7 ORtg, 92.8 DRtg
Warriors with Wilt: 90.3 ORtg, 94.4 DRtg
Warriors without Wilt: 86.2 ORtg, 92.3 DRtg
Sixers full season: 94.1 ORtg, 94.2 DRtg
Sixers with Wilt: 94.7 ORtg, 94.5 DRtg
Sixers without Wilt: 93.5 ORtg, 93.9 DRtg
I really don't understand it, Wilt made both teams worse on defense :oldlol:
[B]To me, the only years where it seemed Wilt played some ATG defense was in '67, '68, '72, & '73.[/B][/QUOTE]
And maybe '66.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018726]Wilt didn't even make the All-Defensive team (1st or 2nd team) in 1969 & 1971. :lol[/QUOTE]
Wilt also didn't make the All NBA teams in 69 or 71. That's was back when players voted and they obviously didn't like him that season to vote Rudy LaRusso over him lol.
He also made first team in 72 and 73.
But, I'm looking at the voting and Dave DeBusschere is number one in votes for five seasons straight
Imagine someone like a prime Duncan leaving the Spurs and they get better defensively, or KG leaving Boston, or even Draymond. It wouldn't happen.
You saw this happen with Wilt a couple of times.
#2 is insane.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018732]Imagine someone like a prime Duncan leaving the Spurs and they get better defensively, or KG leaving Boston, or even Draymond. It wouldn't happen.
You saw this happen with Wilt a couple of times.
#2 is insane.[/QUOTE]
Season after a Wilt left Warrors, they win 35. Last full season with him they win 48 and in the Finals.
Season before he joined Sixers, they're 34-46. First full season with Sixers they're 55-25. 2nd full season with Philly they win the championship.
2009 Celtics
DRTG with KG: 99.2
DRTG without KG: 109.5
KG > Wilt
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;15018735]Season after a Wilt left Warrors, they win 35. Last full season with him they win 48 and in the Finals.
Season before he joined Sixers, they're 34-46. First full season with Sixers they're 55-25. 2nd full season with Philly they win the championship.[/QUOTE]
Can you explain why the 2nd greatest defender in NBA history has this on his resume?
1965
Warriors full season: 87.7 ORtg, 92.8 DRtg
Warriors with Wilt: 90.3 ORtg, 94.4 DRtg
Warriors without Wilt: 86.2 ORtg, 92.3 DRtg
Sixers full season: 94.1 ORtg, 94.2 DRtg
Sixers with Wilt: 94.7 ORtg, 94.5 DRtg
Sixers without Wilt: 93.5 ORtg, 93.9 DRtg
1968 Lakers (without Wilt): #7 defense ( DRTG -0.2 worse than league average)
1969 Lakers: #8 defense ( DRTG +0.6 better than league average)
1970 Lakers (without Wilt): #4 defense (DRTG +1.6 better than league average)
1971 Lakers: #8 defense: (DRTG +1.2 better than league average)
Wilt only slightly improves their defense when he arrives in 1969. The Lakers had their best defensive team in that 4 year period in 1970 when Wilt basically misses the whole season. :lol
That is not the type of impact I expect from the 2nd greatest defender ever.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018739]Can you explain why the 2nd greatest defender in NBA history has this on his resume?
1965
Warriors full season: 87.7 ORtg, 92.8 DRtg
Warriors with Wilt: 90.3 ORtg, 94.4 DRtg
Warriors without Wilt: 86.2 ORtg, 92.3 DRtg
Sixers full season: 94.1 ORtg, 94.2 DRtg
Sixers with Wilt: 94.7 ORtg, 94.5 DRtg
Sixers without Wilt: 93.5 ORtg, 93.9 DRtg
1968 Lakers (without Wilt): #7 defense ( DRTG -0.2 worse than league average)
1969 Lakers: #8 defense ( DRTG +0.6 better than league average)
1970 Lakers (without Wilt): #4 defense (DRTG +1.6 better than league average)
1971 Lakers: #8 defense: (DRTG +1.2 better than league average)
Wilt only slightly improves their defense when he arrives in 1969. Lakers have their best defense in that 4 year period in 1970 when Willt basically misses the whole season. :lol
That is not the type of impact I expect from the 2nd greatest defender ever.[/QUOTE]
So, they got better defensively but lost more games each time he left. Got it.
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;15018623]Don't you list McHale over Karl Malone due to one season lol.
What's more impactful than Ben's defense. He won 4 DPOY, twice back to back. They were in the NBA Finals or Conference Finals the seasons he won the award. Funny enough the years he comes in 2nd the Pistons win the championship.
What's more impactful than that?[/QUOTE]
Don't disrespect peak McHale, bruh. Don't make me pull out The Facts.
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;15018741]So, they got better defensively but lost more games each time he left. Got it.[/QUOTE]
You thought I was done?
Wilt returned to the playoffs in 1970 and the Lakers DRTG during that postseason run was -0.4 worse than league average.
:oldlol:
Wilt at #2 is INSANE!
You talk about blocked shots, but fail to realize guys like Hakeem, Mutombo, & D-Rob would have had just as many if not more blocks than Wilt if they played in that fast paced era.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018743]You thought I was done?
Wilt returned to the playoffs in 1970 and the Lakers DRTG during that postseason run was -0.4 worse than league average.
:oldlol:
Wilt at #2 is INSANE!
You talk about blocked shots, but fail to realize guys like Hakeem, Mutombo, & D-Rob would have had just as many if not more blocks than Wilt if they played in that fast paced era.[/QUOTE]
Wait, 1970. The season he only played 2 weeks in the regular
seaaon and they still made the Finals. Just checking.
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;15018748]Wait, 1970. The season he only played 2 weeks in the regular
seaaon and they still made the Finals. Just checking.[/QUOTE]
You just keep ignoring the actual defensive data. Stop deflecting.
A simple search will tell you the Lakers offense got better in 1970 when Wilt came back, they were the best offensive team during the postseason with Wilt, but got worse on defense.
Wilt was a 7foot plus Olympian level Athlete... a total freak. We probably haven't seen a big man talent like him physically ever outside of Shaq. Who was lazier and slower. If anything because he had to totally carry his teams offense, he didn't have as much juice for defense. But I dont even know about that. Dude was absolute Titan in the paint in a way tweeners could never be. He would embarrass tiny Dray worse than AD has.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018751]You just keep ignoring the actual defensive data. Stop deflecting.
A simple search will tell you the Lakers offense got better in 1970 when Wilt came back, they were the best offensive team during the postseason with Wilt, but got worse on defense.[/QUOTE]
Stop reading this data bruh and just trust me on this.
Posters who has defended Wilt haven’t posted any data proving his case.
You have Lkizzle saying he had a lot of blocks in a fast paced era
And tpols just saying he was an Olympian athlete.
Bro I thought it was bad enough you take Dray over peak KG, but now youre acting like Wilt ****ing Chamberlain isn't in the convo?
:biggums:
Youre on some truly wild shit.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018763]Posters who has defended Wilt haven’t posted any data proving his case.
You have Lkizzle saying he had a lot of blocks in a fast paced era
And tpols just saying he was an Olympian athlete.[/QUOTE]
Wilt blocked Hall of Famer Walt Bellamy 9 times in a row.
What more data do you need?
Data also showed that Stephen Curry was not even in the top 25 for 3 point percentage this season.
According to data, Nicolas Batum has a better shot at making a 3 pointer than Steph Curry.
Still no data. :sleeping
“He blocked someone 9 times in a row”
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15018780]Still no data. :sleeping
“He blocked someone 9 times in a row”[/QUOTE]
Lol, not just someone it's Walt Bellamy.
Fun fact:
Kevin Garnett played Wilt Chamberlain in the Earl Manigault bio film Rebound. Probably the only time they were ever mentioned in the same sentence.