Better at basketball, Jokić or Kobe?

[QUOTE=Baller234;15030899]Same interview:

[video=youtube;zMpm1UFwSUQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMpm1UFwSUQ[/video]

Shannon tells Lue that some outlet had Kobe ranked 11th all time. You could tell by the look on his face and the conviction of his response that he has Kobe ranked a lot higher than that. He SNEERS at the thought of Kobe being #11.

You think he has Yolk top ten all time?? :oldlol:

Here is the video I posted in the other thread showing various hof'ers and stars echoing that Kobe is just below Mike. Multiple examples of guys who played against Kobe, Lebron and Wade... all saying Kobe was the best they faced.

[video=youtube;VvcmuUd6CHo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvcmuUd6CHo[/video]

But sure, they're just retarded stans.[/QUOTE]

None of these guys played against or with Jokic... If they did, they'd be saying the same shit about him

[QUOTE=RRR3;15030878]Definitely better based on what? Because you say so? Wade had a better finals performance than Kobe ever had in 2006 and a better regular season than he ever had in 2009 too.[/QUOTE]

Kobe FS '02: 27/6/5/2 on 62% TS%
Wade FS '06: 35/8/4/3 on 57% TS%

Kobe's 2002 finals gets overlooked because of Shaq, but he did it against the #1 defense compared to Dallas who were #11.

I think the conversation between Jokic and Kobe is close. Recency bias and the fact that Jokic is currently in his peak is skewing perception, in addition to the era that inflates numbers. I don't think for a second that Jokic is putting up a triple double if he's playing in 2001 or say, 2005.

Another thing that can't be left out of the conversation is that Kobe ran through a gauntlet nearly every season. Jokic has beaten what, two 50 win teams in his entire career in the playoffs? I still have him ahead of Jokic, though not by much.

That being said, I don't fault anyone for putting him above Kobe because Jokic has been the best player in the league for the last 5 seasons quite definitively whereas during Kobe's time, we can't really say the same.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;15030956]Kobe FS '02: 27/6/5/2 on 62% TS%
Wade FS '06: 35/8/4/3 on 57% TS%

Kobe's 2002 finals gets overlooked because of Shaq, but he did it against the #1 defense compared to Dallas who were #11.

I think the conversation between Jokic and Kobe is close. Recency bias and the fact that Jokic is currently in his peak is skewing perception, in addition to the era that inflates numbers. I don't think for a second that Jokic is putting up a triple double if he's playing in 2001 or say, 2005.

Another thing that can't be left out of the conversation is that Kobe ran through a gauntlet nearly every season. Jokic has beaten what, two 50 win teams in his entire career in the playoffs? I still have him ahead of Jokic, though not by much.

That being said, I don't fault anyone for putting him above Kobe because Jokic has been the best player in the league for the last 5 seasons quite definitively whereas during Kobe's time, we can't really say the same.[/QUOTE]
Did you seriously just try to equate Kobe's '02 Finals, where they beat up on a scrub team that had literally zero chance of beating them, with Shaq averaging his usual monster 36/12, to Wade's '06 where he dragged the Heat back from the dead virtually singlehandedly averaging 40 over the final 4 games outscoring Shaq by over 20 for the series?

That's one of the wildest takes I have ever read :lol With any context and frankly just by the statline those Finals are genuinely tiers apart.

And imho record aside, Jokic beating the Suns & Lakers in 2023 was as difficult as any pairing of teams Kobe beat on his way to the Finals from 08-10.

lol. this would of actually angered me before the game 7 vs the thunder happened.

[QUOTE=Overdrive;15030943]As I said before. Being ranked 11th or 7th doesn't change anything about Kobe's skill or career. It's just how the creatora of such a list perceive his career.

Players mostly don't give a shit about "career" they see a player from a skill POV and ofc a contemporary will rank Kobe very high, but at the same time most contemporaries neglect the players who came before and do so for alot for the ones that came afterwards.

You'll have lists by players that are heavily biased towards their era and one maybe two idols they loved watching when they grew up. While players are surely more in touch of the game in itself journalists cover a way larger amount of time under the same conditions.

I think a mix of both views could be very accurate.[/QUOTE]

Lol.

So when someone dares to suggest that Kobe is better than you thought he was, it's because there's a secret agenda or bias. But when you guys suggest Kobe is some overrated hack, that's totally irrefutable because you guys just know more than everyone else.

Yolk is an amazing player and he would be great in any era, but you're comparing numbers across different timelines that have no business being compared in the first place. And even if you wanna argue that Yolk is the better offensive player, which is debatable, that still leaves defense. Kobe was elite on both sides of the ball. Yolk on defense is a sorry sack of shit and probably gives up 8-10 points a game due to sheer lack of effort.

Kobe never played in Yolk's era and Yolk never played in Kobe's, so we'll never know what their "numbers" would have been, nor do I care. I care about what they bring to the court as basketball players. Yolk is basically Larry Bird but with zero quickness and zero ability to penetrate. He's GREAT, but that's what he is. A bigger, a slower Larry Bird that is more limited 1 on 1 and doesn't play defense.

Meanwhile what's the worst thing you can say about Kobe. He has a bit of an ego and might take some ill advised shots. Okay fine, other than that he has no weaknesses or flaws in his game. Whatever perceived flaw you wanna harp on doesn't matter because ultimately it didn't matter. He won in spite of it.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15030963]Lol.

So when someone dares to suggest that Kobe is better than you thought he was, it's because there's a secret agenda or bias. But when you guys suggest Kobe is some overrated hack, that's totally irrefutable because you guys just know more than everyone else.

Yolk is an amazing player and he would be great in any era, but you're comparing numbers across different timelines that have no business being compared in the first place. And even if you wanna argue that Yolk is the better offensive player, which is debatable, that still leaves defense. Kobe was elite on both sides of the ball. Yolk on defense is a sorry sack of shit and probably gives up 8-10 points a game due to sheer lack of effort.

Kobe never played in Yolk's era and Yolk never played in Kobe's, so we'll never know what their "numbers" would have been, nor do I care. I care about what they bring to the court as basketball players. Yolk is basically Larry Bird but with zero quickness and zero ability to penetrate. He's GREAT, but that's what he is. A bigger, a slower Larry Bird that is more limited 1 on 1 and doesn't play defense.

Meanwhile what's the worst thing you can say about Kobe. He has a bit of an ego and might take some ill advised shots. Okay fine, other than that he has no weaknesses or flaws in his game. Whatever perceived flaw you wanna harp on doesn't matter because ultimately it didn't matter. He won in spite of it.[/QUOTE]
All available data shows Kobe was a vastly overrated defender, frequently below average in fact.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15030964]All available data shows Kobe was a vastly overrated defender, frequently below average in fact.[/QUOTE]

"All available data..."

Translation, shit I just pulled out of my ass.

Okay professor, show me what the data has to say about Yolk then. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Baller234;15030966]"All available data..."

Translation, shit I just pulled out of my ass.

Okay professor, show me what the data has to say about Yolk then. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
I didn’t make up RAPM, xRAPM, or any similar stats. They are based on lineup data. You seem upset that Kobe had provably less impact than Jokic. Imagine Kobe trying to win a ring with the Nuggets roster in 2023, he would have lost in the first round lol.

[url]https://www.nbarapm.com/player/Kobe_Bryant[/url]

[url]https://www.nbarapm.com/player/Nikola_Jokic[/url]




Not even close


Kobe was a dismal defender most years :(

As someone who watched Kobe's entire peak. His defense was very lazy at times. When focused, he was one of the best man defensive guards in the league, but this wasn't often. He was constantly over helping & gambling on defense and got burned for it time and time again. Like I said earlier, this was a known thing by pretty much any NBA fan who watched him play from about 2004-2013.

Detailed look at his defense at 17:50 mark
[video=youtube;Jopi5e46PAY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jopi5e46PAY[/video]

I would also see quite a few threads on ISH discussing Kobe's overrated/bad defense at times, back when I first joined up until he retired.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15030970]As someone who watched Kobe's entire peak. His defense was very lazy at times. When focused, he was one of the best man defensive guards in the league, but this wasn't often. He was constantly over helping & gambling on defense and got burned for it time and time again. Like I said earlier, this was a known thing by pretty much any NBA fan who watched him play from about 2004-2013.

Detailed look at his defense at 17:50 mark
[video=youtube;Jopi5e46PAY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jopi5e46PAY[/video]

I would also see quite a few threads on ISH discussing Kobe's overrated/bad defense at times, back when I first joined up until he retired.[/QUOTE]
He could play good man defense but his team defense was often atrocious, and that's the more important aspect of defense. Bawler doesn't get this because he's low IQ and doesn't understand what he's watching.

Uh, don't know how you could watch those clips and come out thinking Kobe's defense was LAZY. He's clearly giving an effort at all times. Helping requires effort, gambling and swiping requires effort. It doesn't always yield results but sometimes it does. The intent is there. Even at Kobe's worst he's either hounding you like a pest or helping out on D. He's setting the tone.

When you talk about guys who are LAZY on defense, you should be talking about Yolk. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Baller234;15030978]Uh, don't know how you could watch those clips and come out thinking Kobe's defense was LAZY. He's clearly giving an effort at all times. Helping requires effort, gambling and swiping requires effort. It doesn't always yield results but sometimes it does. The intent is there. Even at Kobe's worst he's either hounding you like a pest or helping out on D. He's setting the tone.

When you talk about guys who are LAZY on defense, you should be talking about Yolk. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Not gonna respond to my posts eh?

Let's look at it this way bawler, just compare their skillset since you love skills so much. Jokic just has a better skillset even regardless of stats, it's funny you ignore that for a guy so focused on skills.

Scoring: Jokic
Rebounding: Jokic
Passing: Jokic
Perimeter defense: Kobe
Interior defense: Jokic
Ballhandling: Kobe
Shooting: Jokic
Playmaking: Jokic
IQ: Jokic
Post game: Jokic

[QUOTE=Baller234;15030978]Uh, don't know how you could watch those clips and come out thinking Kobe's defense was LAZY. He's clearly giving an effort at all times. Helping requires effort, gambling and swiping requires effort. It doesn't always yield results but sometimes it does. The intent is there. Even at Kobe's worst he's either hounding you like a pest or helping out on D. He's setting the tone.

When you talk about guys who are LAZY on defense, you should be talking about Yolk. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

This was a known thing. And to be honest, I don't really blame him. He had to conserve some energy on defense because he had such a big offensive role, especially when Shaq was gone. Phil Jackson most of the time would put Kobe on the weakest offensive player to conserve energy. He did this to MJ as he got older as well. Pretty much every great guard in history saw their defense suffer a little as their offense took off.

T-Mac was a solid defender when he was younger, by the time he was dominating in Orlando his defense was non existent at times. Harden was a solid defender in OKC, by the time he got to Houston he was atrocious on defense. When Kawhi peaked as an offensive player, he was no longer the defender he was in previous years. Stuff like this is very common among great scoring guards.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15030982]Let's look at it this way bawler, just compare their skillset since you love skills so much. Jokic just has a better skillset even regardless of stats, it's funny you ignore that for a guy so focused on skills.

Scoring: Jokic
Rebounding: Jokic
Passing: Jokic
Perimeter defense: Kobe
Interior defense: Jokic
Ballhandling: Kobe
Shooting: Jokic
Playmaking: Jokic
IQ: Jokic
Post game: Jokic[/QUOTE]

If you break it down like that, then Curry would be a low tier star at best.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15030983]:oldlol:

This was a known thing. And to be honest, I don't really blame him. He had to conserve some energy on defense because he had such big offensive role, especially when Shaq was gone. Phil Jackson most of the time would put Kobe on the weakest offensive player to conserve energy. He did this to MJ as he got older as well. Pretty much every great guard in history saw their defense suffer a little as their offense took off.

T-Mac was a solid defender when he was younger, by the time he was dominating in Orlando his defense was non existent at times. Harden was a solid defender in OKC, by the time he got to Houston he was atrocious on defense. When Kawhi peaked as an offensive player, he was no longer the defender he was in previous years. Stuff like this is very common among great scoring guards.[/QUOTE]
Phil was saying Kobe was overrated on defense back in 2004 lol. He wrote about it in his book.

[QUOTE=j3lademaster;15030985]If you break it down like that, then Curry would be a low tier star at best.[/QUOTE]
I don't rank players like that but he's the one who keeps rambling about Kobe's supposed lack of flaws in the skill department. Jokic is just more skilled :confusedshrug: Plus the stat advantage is ridiculously in his favor. and he won a ring without an all-star teammate. Kobe never did that.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15030978]Uh, don't know how you could watch those clips and come out thinking Kobe's defense was LAZY. He's clearly giving an effort at all times. Helping requires effort, gambling and swiping requires effort. It doesn't always yield results but sometimes it does. The intent is there. Even at Kobe's worst he's either hounding you like a pest or helping out on D. He's setting the tone.

When you talk about guys who are LAZY on defense, you should be talking about Yolk. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

So over multiple threads we found the two things Kobe was great at already:

Intent to play defense and missing beautiful shots.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15030988]Klay Thompson has much worse drapm numbers than Kobe and you claim Klay is a great defender….lmfai

[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/fb21JMPr/IMG-7187.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Klay is also overrated on defense. You happy? Now hit the meth pipe again, you know you want to.

[QUOTE=Overdrive;15030989]So over multiple threads we found the two things Kobe was great at already:

Intent to play defense and missing beautiful shots.[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=RRR3;15030986]Phil was saying Kobe was overrated on defense back in 2004 lol. He wrote about it in his book.[/QUOTE]

His biggest problem to me was his constant ball watching on defense, lots of times he would just focus on the offensive player who had the ball, even though he wasn't assigned to him. This led to many defensive breakdowns.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15030998]His biggest problem to me was his constant ball watching on defense, lots of times he would just focus on the offensive player who had the ball, even though he wasn't assigned to him. This led to many defensive breakdowns.[/QUOTE]
How would you rate Kobe just speaking offense wise

[QUOTE=RRR3;15030999]How would you rate Kobe just speaking offense wise[/QUOTE]

As a straight up scorer, at his peak he was one of the best to ever do it. He scored 36% of the Lakers points during the '06 season. To put that into perspective, Wilt scored 40% of his team's points the year he averaged 50 PPG. And also keep in mind Wilt played 7.5 more MPG than Kobe did, which means Kobe's scoring season in '06 might actually be more impressive.

When he was on, he was very eye-pleasing to watch. He would hit a bunch of difficult shots that no player at the time could hit, I think that is one of the reasons why he was so popular, but that confidence he had would backfire because he would also take and miss those shots difficult shots lots of times. His overall offense when taking into account passing, decision making, & efficiency is where he falls below the other all-time great offensive players. He had skill in terms of ways he could score, but didn't have the offensive versatility of a Jokic or LeBron or even Bird.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15031004]As a straight up scorer, at his peak he was one of the best to ever do it. He scored 36% of the Lakers points during the '06 season. To put that into perspective, Wilt scored 40% of his team's points the year he averaged 50 PPG. And also keep in mind Wilt played 7.5 more MPG than Kobe did, which means Kobe's scoring season in '06 might actually be more impressive.

When he was on, he was very eye-pleasing to watch. He would hit a bunch of difficult shots that no player at the time could hit, I think that is one of the reasons why he was so popular, but that confidence he had would backfire because he would also take and miss those shots difficult shots lots of times. His overall offense when taking into account passing, decision making, & efficiency is where he falls below the other all-time great offensive players. He had skill in terms of ways he could score, but didn't have the offensive versatility of a Jokic or LeBron or even Bird.[/QUOTE]

Guy said "even Bird" like Bird isn't unquestionably better than Yolk. :oldlol:

Bird is actually one of the few people who gives Kobe a run for his money in terms of 1 on 1 play. I would still probably give the edge to Kobe due to his athleticism but it's a worthwhile debate. I don't get mad when someone puts Bird #2 behind Jordan.

But Bird and Yolk isn't even a debate. Yolk is to Bird what Kobe is to Jordan. In fact the gap between Jordan and Kobe is probably smaller because Yolk can't score from anywhere from the court like Larry can.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031010]Guy said "even Bird" like Bird isn't unquestionably better than Yolk. :oldlol:

Bird is actually one of the few people who gives Kobe a run for his money in terms of 1 on 1 play. I would still probably give the edge to Kobe due to his athleticism but it's a worthwhile debate. I don't get mad when someone puts Bird #2 behind Jordan.

But Bird and Yolk isn't even a debate. Yolk is to Bird what Kobe is to Jordan. In fact the gap between Jordan and Kobe is probably smaller because Yolk can't score from anywhere from the court like Larry can.[/QUOTE]
Jokic and Bird is debatable peak wise. Kobe is about half as good as Jordan. You are delusional.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031011]Jokic and Bird is debatable peak wise. Kobe is about half as good as Jordan. You are delusional.[/QUOTE]

Hmm, I dunno guys.

Pat Riley, Dirk Nowitzki, Vince Carter, Steve Nash, T-Mac, Mark Jackson, Allen Iverson, Jason Kidd, Kevin Durant, Steve Nash, Grant Hill, Bonzi Wells, Chauncey Billups, Jamal Crawford, Ron Artest and Andre Iguodala...

or [B]3tard[/B].

Whose basketball knowledge reigns supreme.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031016]Hmm, I dunno guys.

Pat Riley, Dirk Nowitzki, Vince Carter, Steve Nash, T-Mac, Mark Jackson, Allen Iverson, Jason Kidd, Kevin Durant, Steve Nash, Grant Hill, Bonzi Wells, Chauncey Billups, Jamal Crawford, Ron Artest and Andre Iguodala...

or [B]3tard[/B].

Whose basketball knowledge reigns supreme.[/QUOTE]
Why are Kobe’s stats so inferior to Jordan’s? It’s not even close. Surely if he was close he would be in the ballpark. Literally all you have is opinions from people who are objectively wrong based on the facts. Kobe was nowhere near MJ you’re on crack if you think he was.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031017]Why are Kobe’s stats so inferior to Jordan’s? It’s not even close. Surely if he was close he would be in the ballpark.[/QUOTE]

Don't take it up with me, take it up with Pat Riley.

He must be a total schmuk that knows nothing about basketball.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031018]Don't take it up with me, take it up with Pat Riley.

He must be a total schmuk that knows nothing about basketball.[/QUOTE]
Poor poor POOR baby brained bawler. He can’t make his own arguments has to rely on quotes from others.

Let’s hear it. Let’s hear one argument from YOU. I bet you can’t do it because there’s no actual evidence supporting Kobe being that level of player.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031020]Poor poor POOR baby brained bawler. He can’t make his own arguments has to rely on quotes from others.

Let’s hear it. Let’s hear one argument from YOU. I bet you can’t do it because there’s no actual evidence supporting Kobe being that level of player.[/QUOTE]

Why do you care about my opinion? I've made case countless times for Kobe this last week. You've read all my posts. It's clear you don't value my opinion.

You don't even value Pat Riley's, why would you value mine? :oldlol:

3tard you are missing your calling. You have a knack for seeing the game in a way others cannot, not even the all time greats. You would be extremely valuable as a scout or an assistant coach. You're letting your talent and intelligence go to waste.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031022]Why do you care about my opinion? I've made case countless times for Kobe this last week. You've read all my posts. It's clear you don't value my opinion.

You don't even value Pat Riley's, why would you value mine? :oldlol:

3tard you are missing your calling. You have a knack for seeing the game in a way others cannot, not even the all time greats. You would be extremely valuable as a scout or an assistant coach. You're letting your talent and intelligence go to waste.[/QUOTE]
Your “case” for Kobe was a video clip of ONE shot he made :lol And then a bunch of opinions. I want facts. Why can’t you give me facts?

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031011]Jokic and Bird is debatable peak wise. Kobe is about half as good as Jordan. You are delusional.[/QUOTE]

You can only grade them relative to their era or it won’t be fair, the modern player will always be better. That being said, Bird never had a 5 year stretch where he was the consensus bitw like Jokic. Since the 80’s, only MJ, Lebron and Jokic has done that- their peak isn’t very debatable. Bird has also had many, many times more playoff failures than Jokic as well, we sweep it under the rug because players weren’t put under a microscope back then.

[QUOTE=j3lademaster;15031025]You can only grade them relative to their era or it won’t be fair, the modern player will always be better. That being said, Bird never had a 5 year stretch where he was the consensus bitw like Jokic. Since the 80’s, only MJ, Lebron and Jokic has done that- their peak isn’t very debatable. Bird has also had many, many times more playoff failures than Jokic as well, we sweep it under the rug because players weren’t put under a microscope back then.[/QUOTE]
Prepare for a bawler meltdown.

[QUOTE=j3lademaster;15031025]You can only grade them relative to their era or it won’t be fair, the modern player will always be better. That being said, Bird never had a 5 year stretch where he was the consensus bitw like Jokic. Since the 80’s, only MJ, Lebron and Jokic has done that- their peak isn’t very debatable. Bird has also had many, many times more playoff failures than Jokic as well, we sweep it under the rug because players weren’t put under a microscope back then.[/QUOTE]
I've always said Bird had several pedestrian playoff performances for an ATG/top 10 player throughout his career. He's lucky he didn't play in the social media era where that shit would be far more documented and distributed amongst fans.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15031030]I've always said Bird had several pedestrian playoff performances for an ATG/top 10 player throughout his career. He's lucky he didn't play in the social media era where that shit would be far more documented and distributed amongst fans.[/QUOTE]

He was a regular season phenom and serial playoff choker until 1984. And most people who actually watched back then say Moses was better in the early 80’s, just way less marketable than Bird vs Magic.

[QUOTE=j3lademaster;15031032]He was a regular season phenom and serial playoff choker until 1984. And most people who actually watched back then say Moses was better in the early 80’s, just way less marketable than Bird vs Magic.[/QUOTE]
Even during his peak years he still had some pretty meh performances.

1985 ECF: 21/7/6 on 50%TS
1985 Finals: 24/9/5 on 53%TS
1987 Finals: 24/10/6 on 53%TS; 20/10/6 on 49%TS over the final 3 games
1988 ECF: 20/12/6 on 45%TS

LeBron would get eviscerated for series like that, and that's not even factoring in all the other very pedestrian performances he had throughout the first 4 years of his career. He gets a massive pass for that.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15031036]Even during his peak years he still had some pretty meh performances.

1985 ECF: 21/7/6 on 50%TS
1985 Finals: 24/9/5 on 53%TS
1987 Finals: 24/10/6 on 53%TS; 20/10/6 on 49%TS over the final 3 games
1988 ECF: 20/12/6 on 45%TS

LeBron would get eviscerated for series like that, and that's not even factoring in all the other very pedestrian performances he had throughout the first 4 years of his career. He gets a massive pass for that.[/QUOTE]

Lebron would get eviscerated for averaging 28/8/8 on 60 ts losing in the second round at age 40. His expectations are unreal. Joker got destroyed for averaging 28/14/6 on 48/33/81 against a historically great defense that was willing to give up open corner 3’s in 2025 in order to triple him in the paint.

I'm a huge advocate for Yolk as GOAT. But... we did see old Dwight rattle him in 2020. What happens in the distant past where there were lots of Dwight physical types? The efficiency and production wouldn't be the same. And Kobes game wasnt tame. Hed eviscerate the current era harder than Jokic has.

[QUOTE=tpols;15031066]I'm a huge advocate for Yolk as GOAT. But... we did see old Dwight rattle him in 2020. What happens in the distant past where there were lots of Dwight physical types? The efficiency and production wouldn't be the same. And Kobes game wasnt tame. Hed eviscerate the current era harder than Jokic has.[/QUOTE]


Why do you keep repeating this nonsense? Jokic scored 22 PPG with a 61.6% TS against the Lakers which was more than he scored in the regular season. He just wasn't as aggressive looking to score back then.

And what were the names of these "Dwight physical types" that were allegedly so common years ago?