Did Shohei Ohtani just have the greatest individual game in sports history?

Some guy in the 70s threw a no-hitter and had 2 HRs at the plate lol. Ohtanis game is up there though.

I think Ohtani has the potential to surpass Bonds' peak but it will never come to fruition because the Dodgers will never overuse him in the regular season. If he hits and runs the bases like 2024, and pitches like 2022 over a full season it would be the greatest season ever. But that will never happen, even though I think he could actually do it. Not only that but i guarentee he has the ability to be one of the best outfielders in the league.

What Bonds did in the early 2000s though is ludicrous and will probably never be surpassed. Best set of eyeballs in history.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15038068]Very rare. As far as hitting and pitching at that level, it hasn't been seen since Babe Ruth.

Ohtani also stole 59 bases last season, first player ever with 50 home runs and[B] 50 stolen bases in a season[/B].[/QUOTE]

Rule change.

The crazy thing about Bonds is that he was robbed of several MVPs in the 90s because analytics weren't a thing yet. Realistically he should've had like 6 MVPs before ever taking steroids - and was already the intentional walk record holder by 1999, before his absurd early 2000s run. By 1998 he had over 400 HRs and 400 SBs, and to this day is the only player to do it, let alone being the only guy in the 500/500 club. And those numbers are more impressive in hindsight because a lot of guys were already juicing during that time... there's a reason why when Bonds started juicing he led the league in OPS by like 300 points during that time.

Bonds is 100% the GOAT.

[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;15038179]Some guy in the 70s threw a no-hitter and had 2 HRs at the plate lol. Ohtanis game is up there though..[/QUOTE]

Ohtani did it in a postseason series clincher. The stakes were different than the game you reference. They enhanced the impressive meter more than a regular season game. Great nonetheless but the reason Ohtani edges it out is quite obvious.

[QUOTE=GOBB;15038200]Ohtani did it in a postseason series clincher. The stakes were different than the game you reference. They enhanced the impressive meter more than a regular season game. Great nonetheless but the reason Ohtani edges it out is quite obvious.[/QUOTE]

I'd like the argument more if they weren't up 3-0 and the Brewers didn't have a combined 2 runs for the series up to that point, but sure. The postseason context opens up a huge can of worms. Do you then assign more greatness to Bob Gipson pitching a complete game in game 7 of the world series, allowing only 3 hits and hitting a HR?

The question was about greatest individual performance in a vacuum, and the dude in 1971 had logically a more impressive game.

[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;15038204]I'd like the argument more if they weren't up 3-0 and the Brewers didn't have a combined 2 runs for the series up to that point, but sure. The postseason context opens up a huge can of worms. Do you then assign more greatness to Bob Gipson pitching a complete game in game 7 of the world series, allowing only 3 hits and hitting a HR?

The question was about greatest individual performance in a vacuum, and the dude in 1971 had logically a more impressive game.[/QUOTE]

Hard to even take the argument seriously when you don’t know the players name. Team they played for. Team he faced. Or any details because we’ll not many knew until Ohtani did what he did. I’m willing to bet if the topic was greatest baseball performances of all time. He still goes unnamed. I’m a Phillies fan and I didn’t even know. Let argue on something logically they we flat out didn’t see. And well you don’t even know his name lol

[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;15038198]The crazy thing about Bonds is that he was robbed of several MVPs in the 90s because analytics weren't a thing yet. Realistically he should've had like 6 MVPs before ever taking steroids[/QUOTE]

That's a stretch. The only year you could say he got robbed is maybe 1991.

[QUOTE=GOBB;15038205]Hard to even take the argument seriously when you don’t know the players name. Team they played for. Team he faced. Or any details because we’ll not many knew until Ohtani did what he did. I’m willing to bet if the topic was greatest baseball performances of all time. He still goes unnamed. I’m a Phillies fan and I didn’t even know. Let argue on something logically they we flat out didn’t see. And well you don’t even know his name lol[/QUOTE]

Mentioning his name doesn't change the fact that throwing a complete game no-hitter and hitting 2 HRs is more individually impressive than throwing 6 shutout innings and hitting 3HRs.

One guy essentially won the game by himself, whereas the other guy let the door open for a loss by allowing hits and not pitching the last 3 innings. It's a logical argument, so I'm not surprised you don't understand it or take it seriously.

If you want to add postseason context then there a lot of much higher leverage performances in the history of sports than being up 3-0 against a team with 2 runs total for the series. There has literally only been 1 team in baseball history to come back from 3-0, so the high stakes argument isn't all that great and opens up a huge amount of potential superior performances.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15038206]That's a stretch. The only year you could say he got robbed is maybe 1991.[/QUOTE]

I'm judging by today's standards, 1991 isn't a maybe, he wins easily. But even if you want to ignore the MVP snubs he still led the league in OPS for the 90s decade and was top 6 in stolen bases, while being a premier defender. All while competing with guys who were juicing.

1971 Phillies pitcher Rick Wise pitched a no hitter (1 BB from a perfect game) to the Reds. Also known back then as the Cincinnati Big Red Machine that featured guys like Joe Morgan Tony Perez Pete Rose Johnny Bench. Since people want to list something they don’t know the year, the name, the teams etc

I get it tho. Someone mentioning it on socials after Ohtani and you want to run in with the Hey Did U Kno3 news. But with no details or context. Hilarious. I love people. Unique beings

6 is a stretch as far as MVPs. But more (multiple) than he did for sure. I agree there. People can talk the roids all they want but prior to allegations he was 1 of 1

[QUOTE=GOBB;15038209]1971 Phillies pitcher Rick Wise pitched a no hitter (1 BB from a perfect game) to the Reds. Also known back then as the Cincinnati Big Red Machine that featured guys like Joe Morgan Tony Perez Pete Rose Johnny Bench. Since people want to list something they don’t know the year, the name, the teams etc

I get it tho. Someone mentioning it on socials after Ohtani and you want to run in with the Hey Did U Kno3 news. But with no details or context. Hilarious. I love people. Unique beings[/QUOTE]

This is where your low IQ and and lack of self-awareness really shines bright.

Pretending I mentioned that game for some sort of recognition is a bizarre projection. I mentioned the game because it's more individually impressive than Ohtani's game in a vacuum. Nobody in this thread was aware of the game or watched it live, so going into the details would be overkill. Only a dumb **** like you would create some strawman out of thin air because you crave getting embarrassed on an internet forum lol.

[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;15038198]The crazy thing about Bonds is that he was robbed of several MVPs in the 90s because analytics weren't a thing yet. Realistically he should've had like 6 MVPs before ever taking steroids - and was already the intentional walk record holder by 1999, before his absurd early 2000s run. By 1998 he had over 400 HRs and 400 SBs, and to this day is the only player to do it, let alone being the only guy in the 500/500 club. And those numbers are more impressive in hindsight because a lot of guys were already juicing during that time... there's a reason why when Bonds started juicing he led the league in OPS by like 300 points during that time.

Bonds is 100% the GOAT.[/QUOTE]

The analytics thing is true but it was probably more about Bond’s visceral hatred towards the media. He hated them and they like wise hated him back.

But it is amazing how people don’t even realize how good pre steroid Barry was. He was the greatest in the game by a good margin.

He only started juicing when bums like Sammy Sosa started going off and approaching his status.

Then when he juiced he immediately took his throne back as the greatest

[QUOTE=GOBB;15038212]6 is a stretch as far as MVPs. But more (multiple) than he did for sure. I agree there. People can talk the roids all they want but prior to allegations he was 1 of 1[/QUOTE]

It's not a stretch at all

In 1996 he had 40/40 and led the leave in walks and WAR by a huge margin. Finished 5th. With today's voting that's a unanimous MVP.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15038124]That’s fair. You could use the race thing against Ruth. Only difference is Ruth had nothing to do with that and didn’t cheat the game, unlike Bonds. There is a reason why he isn’t in the hall of fame.[/QUOTE]

Everybody was using roids in Bonds era. Youd have to be extremely naive to not know that. He didnt cheat the game, he leveled the playing field. But he was already so much better naturally that when he did that he turned into Shaq. :lol

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15038215]The analytics thing is true but it was probably more about Bond’s visceral hatred towards the media. He hated them and they like wise hated him back.

But it is amazing how people don’t even realize how good pre steroid Barry was. He was the greatest in the game by a good margin.

He only started juicing when bums like Sammy Sosa started going off and approaching his status.

Then when he juiced he immediately took his throne back as the greatest[/QUOTE]

And that's the thing, he started juicing when he was already out of his prime and still went on to have the best 4 year stretch in sports history. He wasn't just the best in the game, he was literally in a different stratosphere than the next best guys during that time.

Had he been juicing for the entire 90s, I mean, we're talking about some real alien type shit.

[QUOTE=tpols;15038217]Everybody was using roids in Bonds era. Youd have to be extremely naive to not know that. He didnt cheat the game, he leveled the playing field. But he was already so much better naturally that when he did that he turned into Shaq. :lol[/QUOTE]

Doesn't matter. Steroids give hitters a much bigger advantage than pitchers who take it. All of those batting stats from that era should be taken off history.

1. Ruth
2. Mays

The rest are fighting for #3.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15038221]Doesn't matter. Steroids give hitters a much bigger advantage than pitchers who take it. All of those batting stats from that era should be taken off history.

1. Ruth
2. Mays

The rest are fighting for #3.[/QUOTE]

You’re a dipshit. lol.

Guy reads about Rick wise on Reddit and wants to throw his hat in the race hahaha You dudes here can be so damn phony.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15038221]Doesn't matter. Steroids give hitters a much bigger advantage than pitchers who take it. All of those batting stats from that era should be taken off history.

1. Ruth
2. Mays

The rest are fighting for #3.[/QUOTE]

Now post the greatest players YOU have ever seen.

[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;15038216]It's not a stretch at all

In 1996 he had 40/40 and led the leave in walks and WAR by a huge margin. Finished 5th. With today's voting that's a unanimous MVP.[/QUOTE]

Bonds is my goat so I’m not going to give you push back on it. I watched him and he was really like that.

[QUOTE=GOBB;15038226]Now post the greatest players YOU have ever seen.[/QUOTE]

1. Ohtani

2. The rest.

I saw Bonds during the early-mid 00's. Since I live in the bay area I got to watch a shit ton of his regular season games. It was amazing to watch, the hype around him was crazy, but steroids give him an asterisk.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15038228]1. Ohtani

2. The rest.

I saw Bonds during the early-mid 00's. Since I live in the bay area I got to watch a shit ton of his regular season games. It was amazing to watch, the hype around him was crazy, but steroids give him an asterisk.[/QUOTE]


Cool. I’m curious about “the rest”. No agenda, or motive on my end either.

[QUOTE=GOBB;15038231]Cool. I’m curious about “the rest”. No agenda, or motive on my end either.[/QUOTE]

Pujols and Trout immediately come to mind. Ichrio was a menace too, just didn't have HR power. A-Rod was a monster too, but gets points taken off because of steroids.

More perspective on Babe Ruth as a pitcher.

Walter Johnson is usually the choice for GOAT pitcher, he played in Ruth's era.

Ruth actually had a lower ERA as a pitcher than Johnson did in two years. This was prime Johnson too.

1916
Ruth - 1.75 ERA (Would have won Cy Young award if that was a thing back then)
Johnson - 1.90 ERA

1917
Ruth - 2.01 ERA
Johnson - 2.21 ERA

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15038228]1. Ohtani

2. The rest.

I saw Bonds during the early-mid 00's. Since I live in the bay area I got to watch a shit ton of his regular season games. It was amazing to watch, the hype around him was crazy, but steroids give him an asterisk.[/QUOTE]

So you never saw pre steroid bonds.

Checks out because you don’t know anything about it apparently lol.

Coming from someone who followed him when he was on the Pirates that thought I was being pranked when I heard he’s coming to the Giants…He was the best player in the league before he even came to San Francisco.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15038245]So you never saw pre steroid bonds.

Checks out because you don’t know anything about it apparently lol.

Coming from someone who followed him when he was on the Pirates that thought I was being pranked when I heard he’s coming to the Giants…He was the best player in the league before he even came to San Francisco.[/QUOTE]

That would make you like 45. I don't believe you are that old. If so, you have to be the most immature middle aged man I have encountered. :oldlol:

I didn't see pre steroids Bonds but know how highly regarded he was. He peaked as a hitter when he was on steroids though, that isn't even a debate.

Only thing Bonds was better at during the 90's was fielding and stealing bases, but even as a defensive fielder during the 90's he didn't really blow you away, people always shitted on his weak arm.

Mays had the total package. Pre steroids Bonds as a hitter was basically Mays level, Bonds was probably slightly better, but Mays as a defensive fielder was superior, some have him as the best defensive center fielder ever.

Yea Bonds was the better hitter in the league for a decade almost before the steroids. Smart player who ran the bases well too and was excellent defensively, albeit in left field so not as important.

GOAT talks are tough because the roid years really play into it. Without 2000-2004 he’s still a first ballot guy and top 15 or something like that.

Really hard to compare him to Ruth or Ted Williams. Or Mays. Or Mantle even, who doesn’t get talked about enough. He had some injuries that stifled a few of his prime years but at his best he was absolutely as good as Mays. Better hitter for sure. Not the same force athletically of course but his dominance at the plate made up for it.

I feel Pedro Martinez gets kinda forgotten as the years progress.

Didn't have the longevity to be the GOAT pitcher, but in his prime (late 90's - early 00's) he was probably the best to ever do it or at least top 3 ever.

His ERA+ numbers in his prime which is ERA comparing it to league average is the best ever. To have a 2.20 ERA in a 7 year span at the peak of the steroid era is pretty crazy.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15038295]I feel Pedro Martinez gets kinda forgotten as the years progress.

Didn't have the longevity to be the GOAT pitcher, but in his prime (late 90's - early 00's) he was probably the best to ever do it or at least top 3 ever.

His ERA+ numbers in his prime which is ERA comparing it to league average is the best ever. To have a 2.20 ERA in a 7 year span at the peak of the steroid era is pretty crazy.[/QUOTE]

Nahhh. Him, Maddux, Clemens, and Unit are timeless. 4 of the probably 8-10 best ever all pitching at the same time was cool.

[video=youtube;RN1nUnCr1QM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RN1nUnCr1QM[/video]

My goodness

Of all the greatest pitchers in that era I think Clemens actually gets forgotten the most. The later steroid aspect certainly doesn't help but he was such a dawg.

7 Cy's. Only 5 instances in MLB history of 20 K's in a game and he has 2 of them.

You always hear about Maddux (76 pitch complete game shutout), Pedro (4 pitch dominance), and Johnson (struck everyone out) and rightfully so but he doesn't get mentioned much.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15038293]Yea Bonds was the better hitter in the league for a decade almost before the steroids. Smart player who ran the bases well too and was excellent defensively, albeit in left field so not as important.

GOAT talks are tough because the roid years really play into it. Without 2000-2004 he’s still a first ballot guy and top 15 or something like that.

Really hard to compare him to Ruth or Ted Williams. Or Mays. [B]Or Mantle even, who doesn’t get talked about enough. He had some injuries that stifled a few of his prime years but at his best he was absolutely as good as Mays.[/B] Better hitter for sure. Not the same force athletically of course but his dominance at the plate made up for it.[/QUOTE]

[video=youtube;wj8iMqKeBKk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj8iMqKeBKk&t[/video]

Hey Barry.... [I]don't fukk with me![/I]

[url]https://x.com/nut_history/status/1608614942395232256?s=19[/url]

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15038299]Of all the greatest pitchers in that era I think Clemens actually gets forgotten the most. The later steroid aspect certainly doesn't help but he was such a dawg.

7 Cy's. Only 5 instances in MLB history of 20 K's in a game and he has 2 of them.

You always hear about Maddux (76 pitch complete game shutout), Pedro (4 pitch dominance), and Johnson (struck everyone out) and rightfully so but he doesn't get mentioned much.[/QUOTE]
Really, I feel like Maddux doesn't get talked about at all.

I'm not going to say he's necessarily underrated or anything, but since we're on the topic of pitchers from that era, I think it's insane Schilling never made the HOF. He and Johnson were arguably the greatest pitching duo ever in '01, they annihilated everyone in their path including the dynasty Yankees. That's not even mentioning his iconic run with the Sox in '04.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15038314]Really, I feel like Maddux doesn't get talked about at all.

I'm not going to say he's necessarily underrated or anything, but since we're on the topic of pitchers from that era, I think it's insane Schilling never made the HOF. He and Johnson were arguably the greatest pitching duo ever in '01, they annihilated everyone in their path including the dynasty Yankees. That's not even mentioning his iconic run with the Sox in '04.[/QUOTE]

In baseball circle I think that Maddux is pretty well-represented. To this day any time a pitcher throws a complete game in under 100 pitches a lot of people call it a "Maddux".

I was living in Atlanta during the Maddux years and he was a guy that chose to keep a low profile. Smoltz was everywhere doing commercials and appearances but Maddux didn't. He had almost reverse charisma.

I played a pickup game with some of the Braves once. Smoltz isn't as big as he looked on TV but Avery was bigger than he looked on TV lol. Afterwards Smoltz was wandering around the gym asking for $10 to pay the guest fee.

:facepalm

Maddux gets talked about in baseball circles for sure. I also come across a lot of content involving Maddox pitching. Roger Clemens lack of mention is due to steroids.

Degrom is a pitcher strictly and had at least a game or 2 hitting a home run winning 1-0. While obviously not as dramatic as a playoff game but how much pressure was it being up 3-0 in a series playing an overmatched and shook team?

You guys thump your chests when he's hitting 3HRs in a 14-0 game. But running up your stats in a blowout win ain't impressing me. Hating aside it was a great game :lol

The Bonds steroid thing is a really slippery slope.

Bonds was great pre-steroids and was already on his way to being one of the best ever, but he still doesn't reach the heights he did without them. He went to a totally different level after taking them, just like McGuire and Sosa. He was better than them so he reached even greater heights.

But the reason I say it's slippery is because where do you draw the line. From the 50's-70's all the players were on amphetamines. If you're gonna call Bonds a cheater because he took steroids then the same logic should apply to them too. Also the guys who were on cocaine during the 80's.