Micheal Jordan Denial

[QUOTE=Manute for Ever!]To be our age and have seen it, it almost physically hurts to reads **** like that, it is so insulting. It is not a matter of being trapped in the past, more a matter of how much the younger fans will never know.[/QUOTE]

The problem with these little kids is that they think they know everything at like 12 or so instead of realizing that maybe they should learn some more before they try to talk to people who have been watching/analyzing the game for a long long time and have SEEN Jordan's career AND Kobe/LeBron/Wade, etc.

[QUOTE=JohnnyBravo5]Josh Smith is a better shotblocker than MJ!:roll:

Tim Hardaway had a better crossover

George Gervin could fingeroll better than MJ[/QUOTE]


Also, Jordan [B]never[/B], and I mean [B]never[/B] got outplayed in [B]any playoff series[/B] by [B]anyone[/B]. He was always, and always the best player on the court and had the better numbers.


No other player in History can say that.

[QUOTE=EricForman]Poseidon is quite possibly the worse poster in the history of ISH...agree?[/QUOTE]

Not to take away from the topic a hand but... BULLS?

Jordan was the greatest competitor I've ever seen in any sport ever. Period.

To those who think Kobe, Lebron, Wade, etc. are better than Jordan, they have never actually seen Jordan play and watch his playoff series. If you did, you'd realize this is a foolish thread....

This is not making players in the past better than they were. Jordan was UNBELIEVABLE...literally. Ever time you watched him in a game, you would say, "Is this guy for real?"

I've said that about Kobe a couple of times. Lebron once (in the playoffs). Wade never.

[QUOTE=Manute for Ever!]To be our age and have seen it, it almost physically hurts to reads **** like that, it is so insulting. It is not a matter of being trapped in the past, more a matter of how much the younger fans will never know.[/QUOTE]

Truly.

I mean, I'm sure all generations go through it, where they favor players of the past they remember. I mean I'm sure some people from NY in the '50's still think Mickey Mantle was the greatest or that Jim Brown was the greatest in Cleveland.

That being said; just because I thought Joe Montana was the best QB I've ever seen for example, doesn't mean that Tom Brady isn't or won't be better. Or that Albert Pujols will be better than Lou Gehrig or whatever.
I mean, I feel most rational people are pretty open to players coming along who are better. It's only natural.

Except...

for Michael Jordan. To me, he is the exception. I will NEVER forget how great he was, because the whole time in the late '80's (and early '90's to an extent) I kept saying to myself and friends, don't EVER forget just how great this guy is and exactly what you are watching.

The scary thing about MJ is that the words on that statue outside the UC, with the best there ever was/will be, are kind of true.

I mean, I am almost positive some gentic freak will come along and be better. But it is going to take SO much to do it. I don't see it happening for the longest time.

I mean, MJ is just a couple cuts above any athlete I've ever seen. Physically, but even moreso mentally. :bowdown:

Michael Jordan will always be the greatest in Basketball
Babe Ruth will always be the greatest in Baseball
Wayne Gretzky will always be the greatest in Hockey
Ali will always be the greatest in Boxing



Each of those player did too much for their respective sport. MJ has so much influence on the game that it is not even funny. People still wear his jumpman and air jordan headband and shoes.

Do you see anyone wearing a Kobe headband?

What I love about this threads is that the OP usually disappears after the first posts.

I wonder if they get scared after the masacre they get, or they are just trolls looking at how people will react.

[QUOTE=Manute for Ever!]To be our age and have seen it, it almost physically hurts to reads **** like that, it is so insulting. It is not a matter of being trapped in the past, more a matter of how much the younger fans will never know.[/QUOTE]


very true. :applause:

but I'm not that old. yes I was already watching the NBA when it was in the Jordan era, but i was young then. :D

[QUOTE]I've said that about Kobe a couple of times. Lebron once (in the playoffs). Wade never.[/QUOTE]

I remember John Salley claiming that Magic Johnson was the greatest player he's ever seen, and someone asked him "What about Jordan."

John Salley simply replied..."Magic!!!"
So is Salley stupid because he didn't pick your precious? Of course not, he was old enough to see other legends play the game...the rules were different back then, so looking at statistics as the sole analysis is completely misleading. Of course there are hundreds of memorable moments from Jordan's career, just like there are from those other legends...most of you just can't be bothered to actually do some research about them so you simply stick with the obvious choice, a player you grew up watching. I'm not really blaming you, hard to argue against his success and accolades...it's just not as one sided as some of you like to think.

I'd say there are about 3-4 other players in the same tier as Michael Jordan, but to think no one should be compared to him is bias at its best.

Elders in my life, I'd say about two of them consider Jordan to be the greatest...everyone else leans toward Bird or Magic or Kareem or Hakeem Olajuwon. So I mean everyone has an opinion, I just think if you ask an older generation who have seen guys like Baylor, West, Wilt and Russell play...their opinions will be somewhat different.

[QUOTE=bagelred]Jordan was the greatest competitor I've ever seen in any sport ever. Period.

To those who think Kobe, Lebron, Wade, etc. are better than Jordan, they have never actually seen Jordan play and watch his playoff series. If you did, you'd realize this is a foolish thread....

This is not making players in the past better than they were. Jordan was UNBELIEVABLE...literally. Ever time you watched him in a game, you would say, "Is this guy for real?"

I've said that about Kobe a couple of times. Lebron once (in the playoffs). Wade never.[/QUOTE]

Let's make a hypothetical statement... Take a 15 year old fan, they were born when the Dream Team was playing in Barcelona, when basketball meant something. The greatest collection of sporting takent EVER. A current nineth grade kid proceeded a stain on the sheets when the greatest team ever assembled ever played. I still have my Jordan and Pippen Dream Team Jerseys. Being league Leader in this or that didn't matter, being the first athletic billionaire didn't matter, only winning mattered and that is all that should matter.

[QUOTE=Knoe Itawl]
This right here shows that you have to be 8 years old. Come back when you learn some more about basketball and let grown folks talk. Run along now.[/QUOTE]

obviously you dont read too good. learn to read with both eyes and mind open son.

[QUOTE]
Well when someone gets 6 finals MVP, and the highest scoring average in all the season, playoffs and finals and the highest PER average along with the most seasons of 30+ PER then we can have a debate.[/QUOTE]

"It's his mentality and charisma that sets him apart. He spread the winning attitude amongst his teammates. I doubt his teammates would be as good as they were without him in the picture. People keep saying he has great teammates, that's why he won so much championship. Well, I think his teammates are great largely because of him."

Again, what MJ can do physically, Lebron or Kobe can do. They just doesn't have his mentality and charisma. At least not yet.

MJ's teammates are great because of his mental qualities. He just elevates everyone's game in the team. MJ's team was really good largely because of him --> his number was great largely because his team was really good. It was interconnected.

[QUOTE=kgisbigticket][B]Michael Jordan will always be the greatest in Basketball[/B]
Babe Ruth will always be the greatest in Baseball
Wayne Gretzky will always be the greatest in Hockey
Ali will always be the greatest in Boxing



Each of those player did too much for their respective sport. MJ has so much influence on the game that it is not even funny. People still wear his jumpman and air jordan headband and shoes.

Do you see anyone wearing a Kobe headband?[/QUOTE]


I agree with the comment in bold (at least for a long, long time)
But not with other three.

I think due to the fact of weight training, etc. (not steroids:( ) a player will come along, if he hasn't already, who will be better than The Babe.

Gretzky has the longevity records, but it is arguable that Lemieux at his peak was better. Much bigger and more dominant physically, defensively and very comparable in their best offensive seasons. I'd probably take Gretz, by a VERY slim margin, but I feel that a player will come along soon who will be better. The ceiling is very reachable. (I played hockey for 20 years, college, etc. for those with credibility issues)

Ali to me wasn't the greatest boxer. I think by most accounts from experts Sugar Ray Robinson was pound for pound. Yes, I would take the Liston version Ali over any heavyweight though. And would put him top 5 boxers ever. He was the greatest sports figure though as a personality IMO though.
Not likely to be topped there.

But yes, the gap between MJ and the rest in Basketball is greater than that of any other sport. (Golf would be second with Tiger IMO)

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]Truly.

I mean, I'm sure all generations go through it, where they favor players of the past they remember. I mean I'm sure some people from NY in the '50's still think Mickey Mantle was the greatest or that Jim Brown was the greatest in Cleveland.

That being said; just because I thought Joe Montana was the best QB I've ever seen for example, doesn't mean that Tom Brady isn't or won't be better. Or that Albert Pujols will be better than Lou Gehrig or whatever.
I mean, I feel most rational people are pretty open to players coming along who are better. It's only natural.

Except...

for Michael Jordan. To me, he is the exception. I will NEVER forget how great he was, because the whole time in the late '80's (and early '90's to an extent) I kept saying to myself and friends, don't EVER forget just how great this guy is and exactly what you are watching.

The scary thing about MJ is that the words on that statue outside the UC, with the best there ever was/will be, are kind of true.

I mean, I am almost positive some gentic freak will come along and be better. But it is going to take SO much to do it. I don't see it happening for the longest time.

I mean, MJ is just a couple cuts above any athlete I've ever seen. Physically, but even moreso mentally. :bowdown:[/QUOTE]

That piece you wrote a couple of days ago summed it up. Jordan games were an event. You summed it up perfectly and I want to personally thank you for bringing that feeling back for the few minutes it took to read your post.

[QUOTE=iamgine]obviously you dont read too good. learn to read with both eyes and mind open son.



"It's his mentality and charisma that sets him apart. He spread the winning attitude amongst his teammates. I doubt his teammates would be as good as they were without him in the picture. People keep saying he has great teammates, that's why he won so much championship. Well, I think his teammates are great largely because of him."

Again, what MJ can do physically, Lebron or Kobe can do. They just doesn't have his mentality and charisma. At least not yet.

MJ's teammates are great because of his mental qualities. He just elevates everyone's game in the team. MJ's team was really good largely because of him --> his number was great largely because his team was really good. It was interconnected.[/QUOTE]


Not only that, but MJ could win titles without a dominant big man because MJ had the efficiency of a dominant big man. In fact, his effiency was greater than Shaq and Wilt as indicated by him having the highest PER.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/PER_career.html[/url]

1 Michael Jordan 27.91
2 Shaquille O'Neal 27.63
3 David Robinson 26.18
4 Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
5 Bob Pettit* 25.34
6 Tim Duncan 25.17
7 Charles Barkley* 24.63
8 Neil Johnston* 24.62
9 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58


Your Top 9 are all big men except MJ. Just goes to show how good he really was.

[QUOTE=Phenomenon]I remember John Salley claiming that Magic Johnson was the greatest player he's ever seen, and someone asked him "What about Jordan."

John Salley simply replied..."Magic!!!"
So is Salley stupid because he didn't pick your precious? Of course not, he was old enough to see other legends play the game...the rules were different back then, so looking at statistics as the sole analysis is completely misleading. Of course there are hundreds of memorable moments from Jordan's career, just like there are from those other legends...most of you just can't be bothered to actually do some research about them so you simply stick with the obvious choice, a player you grew up watching. I'm not really blaming you, hard to argue against his success and accolades...it's just not as one sided as some of you like to think.

I'd say there are about 3-4 other players in the same tier as Michael Jordan, but to think no one should be compared to him is bias at its best.

Elders in my life, I'd say about two of them consider Jordan to be the greatest...everyone else leans toward Bird or Magic or Kareem or Hakeem Olajuwon. So I mean everyone has an opinion, I just think if you ask an older generation who have seen guys like Baylor, West, Wilt and Russell play...their opinions will be somewhat different.[/QUOTE]


Well, all you'd have to do is ask Magic, and he'd tell you Jordan.

[QUOTE]Well, all you'd have to do is ask Magic, and he'd tell you Jordan.[/QUOTE]

Well, really? :oldlol:
Because Magic Johnson more then once said Larry Bird was the greatest player he's ever seen. Either he's completely contradicting himself or you're just making stuff up.

But I'll gladly see a link from you to back that statement up.

funniest thing about these threads, which pop up all the time, is:

A - the overwhelming evidence that jordan at least has an equal argument to anybody else for goat being ignored by young posters who didn't really watch him using theories that they've concocted that fly in the face of every top sports analyst of the last decade, as though nobody on the planet is as smart as their 13 year old ass.

B - the bizarre way that it's almost always lakers fan who side against mike - and not kobe fans really, but honest to god lakers fans. magic fans especially. which is fine, but odd. i almost never hear celtics fan toting bird or russell or phili fans on wilt.

anyway. even if you never saw him play a game, if 10 scoring titles, 6 finals mvps, 9 all-d teams, and one title for every season in which he played with another all-star doesn't at least merit consideration against anybody else you can think of, then you're just being obtuse. i wholeheartedly agree with really looking into your selection as deeply as possible and not just riding the popular wave to a conculsion, but writing off the accepted goat because you want to be different is just as stupid as accepting him because you want to fit in.

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]Well, all you'd have to do is ask Magic, and he'd tell you Jordan.[/QUOTE]


That's not a slight at Magic, however, as he is in my top 3. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[url]http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm[/url]

[quote]Magic Johnson says there is no debate.

[B]"Michael is the greatest player ever[/B], and [B]Bill Russell is the greatest winner ever and always will be[/B]," says Johnson, who joins Jordan in the backcourt on the first team.

[/quote]

[QUOTE=iamgine]
Again, what MJ can do physically, Lebron or Kobe can do.[/quote]

Where do you get that idea? Jordan was pretty clearly superior to Kobe athletically, and has athletic advantages on Lebron as well (though Lebron has some on him, which makes the matchup as overall athletes a closer one than between MJ/Kobe). For example, Jordan was far quicker laterally, more explosive (first step, change of pace, acceleration etc.), and a better two footed leaper and leaper off a hop step. Far better body control/coordination in general than Lebron. Far better reflexes. Other stuff is arguable (for example, I think Jordan was faster end to end, but it's arguable either way), but the above is not.

[QUOTE=Phenomenon]Well, really? :oldlol:
Because Magic Johnson more then once said Larry Bird was the greatest player he's ever seen. Either he's completely contradicting himself or you're just making stuff up.

But I'll gladly see a link from you to back that statement up.[/QUOTE]
repeatedly over the years (even last year i think when the kobe comparison came up) he has said jordan. i suspect he said bird sometime before 1993, because by the 1992 finals (which he announced) he was already in jordan's corner.

for whatever that's worth.

[QUOTE=Phenomenon]Well, really? :oldlol:
Because Magic Johnson more then once said Larry Bird was the greatest player he's ever seen. Either he's completely contradicting himself or you're just making stuff up.

But I'll gladly see a link from you to back that statement up.[/QUOTE]


Famous story about how Bird, Magic, and MJ all stayed up all night in Barcelona one night and they talked about about who's the greatest.

After going back and forth, Bird stopped the conversation and said, "Magic you were great, I was great, but MJ was the greatest." The way Bird put it, Magic and him conceded.


I'll try to find a link, but it's a pretty famous story.

I heard numerous times Magic Johnson telling to Larry Bird that he's the greatest player he's ever seen. I guess it's out of respect for their rival, and him picking Jordan is his un-bias opinion. Fair enough.

Like I said, Jordan would make #1 on my list as well...I just don't think the gap is that large between him and other legends of the game.

[QUOTE]i suspect he said bird sometime before 1993, because by the 1992 finals (which he announced) he was already in jordan's corner.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't have brought that up if it was the case, I think last year he said that. I can't think off top of my head where I seen it, I think it was a special ceremony of some sort for Magic and Larry Bird was there??

Oh my god, I have amnesia.

[QUOTE=Phenomenon]I heard numerous times Magic Johnson telling to Larry Bird that he's the greatest player he's ever seen. I guess it's out of respect for their rival, and him picking Jordan is his un-bias opinion. Fair enough.

Like I said, Jordan would make #1 on my list as well...I just don't think the gap is that large between him and other legends of the game.[/QUOTE]
agreed. i like this quote from jordan in that same article (whether he believes it or not):

[QUOTE]"It's truly an accomplishment, and I take it in a prideful way," Jordan says of his "greatest" title. "But I don't accept it in the sense that I haven't played against the other great players. I've played against some good players and great players in my era, but I don't get to play against the other guys in other eras.

"I think that's unfair to those guys as well as to myself to say I'm the best that ever played because I never played against Wilt Chamberlain. I never played against Jerry West," Jordan says. "I respect the older players and if it wasn't for them, there is no way I could have become the player that I am. I've watched Jerry West. I've watched Walter Davis, David Thompson. They influenced my game. They've got to have a piece of what I've accomplished."[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]"I think that's unfair to those guys as well as to myself to say I'm the best that ever played because I never played against Wilt Chamberlain. I never played against Jerry West," Jordan says. "I respect the older players and if it wasn't for them, there is no way I could have become the player that I am. I've watched Jerry West. I've watched Walter Davis, David Thompson. They influenced my game. They've got to have a piece of what I've accomplished."[/QUOTE]

It makes me feel good when I think like Michael Jordan. :)

[QUOTE]"It's truly an accomplishment, and I take it in a prideful way," Jordan says of his "greatest" title. "But I don't accept it in the sense that I haven't played against the other great players. I've played against some good players and great players in my era, but I don't get to play against the other guys in other eras.

"I think that's unfair to those guys as well as to myself to say I'm the best that ever played because I never played against Wilt Chamberlain. I never played against Jerry West," Jordan says. "I respect the older players and if it wasn't for them, there is no way I could have become the player that I am. I've watched Jerry West. I've watched Walter Davis, David Thompson. They influenced my game. They've got to have a piece of what I've accomplished."[/QUOTE]

:applause:

that should be every great player's mentality

[QUOTE=Phenomenon]I heard numerous times Magic Johnson telling to Larry Bird that he's the greatest player he's ever seen. I guess it's out of respect for their rival, and him picking Jordan is his un-bias opinion. Fair enough.

Like I said, Jordan would make #1 on my list as well...I just don't think the gap is that large between him and other legends of the game.



I wouldn't have brought that up if it was the case, I think last year he said that. I can't think off top of my head where I seen it, I think it was a special ceremony of some sort for Magic and Larry Bird was there??

Oh my god, I have amnesia.[/QUOTE]

The initial post you were responding to (mine) simply said that when [b]someone comes along who is better[/b], people will recognize it. Meaning from the present time and into the future. Not past players like Magic/Kareem/Wilt etc. Not sure why you got so offended except that perhaps in your rush to minimize Jordan you didn't comprehend what you were reading. Those past players do have [i]cases[/i] (illegitimate ones imo, but cases nonetheless) for being better than or as good as Jordan, but no one today does.

[QUOTE=dejordan]agreed. i like this quote from jordan in that same article (whether he believes it or not):[/QUOTE]

Whether he believes it or not is dead on. :D

That is "Public Mike" in that quote. "Private Mike" (who is WAYYY different) knows he would take Jerry West turn him into Jerry Sichting.

I also love how Mike ALWAYS references Walter Davis and David Thompson. I swear if you gave Mike an all time starting five to play with they'd be in it. :oldlol:

He is too funny with that stuff.

[QUOTE]Not sure why you got so offended except that perhaps in your rush to minimize Jordan you didn't comprehend what you were reading. Those past players do have cases (illegitimate ones imo, but cases nonetheless) for being better than or as good as Jordan, but no one today does.[/QUOTE]

My comprehension skills are just fine, perhaps you should take a look at the post you were replying to...in the first place.

And even if you were only talking about current and future players, it's not exactly clear by your statement...so perhaps you should do a better job typing your posts. I didn't get offended, this is a basketball forum and I replied to something I didn't agree with. I don't get rattled the way you do when someone thinks Jordan's isn't a basketball god or when someone says something positive about Kobe. I'm a hell of a lot more neutral about basketball discussions then you are.

Kettle calling me black.

[B]"It's truly an accomplishment, and I take it in a prideful way," Jordan says of his "greatest" title. "But I don't accept it in the sense that I haven't played against the other great players. I've played against some good players and great players in my era, but I don't get to play against the other guys in other eras.

"I think that's unfair to those guys as well as to myself to say I'm the best that ever played because I never played against Wilt Chamberlain. I never played against Jerry West," Jordan says. "I respect the older players and if it wasn't for them, there is no way I could have become the player that I am. I've watched Jerry West. I've watched Walter Davis, David Thompson. They influenced my game. They've got to have a piece of what I've accomplished."
[/B]

I know there is nothing wrong with saying this, and it actually is the most respectful thing to say. But I highly doubt Michael Jordan actually thinks this. I'm sure he does think he's the greatest. He's just the type of guy that likes to avoid controversy and he is humble.

Isiah Rider (Jordan's student) was better than MJ if he did'nt mess up his carrer he'd be at an insane level right now

[QUOTE=mjbulls23]how can people say Jordan would be just another swingman today? That's laughable..... and "Kobe is better than MJ"..... are you guys 15 year olds that began watching NBA in 2006? I'll compare Kobe to the 2nd 3 peat MJ because he is not even remotely close to young MJ...... What you youngsters should learn is that Jordan was mentally head and shoulders above any current player.... People were afraid to motivate this man in any way....... Jordan raised his level of play in the playoffs and Finals........ today's inflated scoring stats due to the rule changes must have fooled you guys....... As of today, Jordan is the GOAT....... The Kobe / MJ comparison is too premature....... And the competition is not better today...... Stockton & Payton (defensively) would be today's best PG's...... same with MJ at SG, Pip at SF, Malone at PF, and take your pick on any center from the 90s, young Shaq, Hakeem, Patrick, D. Robison, etc..... I can only imagine what Rodman and Barkley's rebounding numbers would be today.........[/QUOTE]

I agree. I don't get how Jordan would be just another swingman today, when he accomplished more then all of today's swingmen in an era where the rules weren't catered to swingmen as much. That means that Jordan would probably accomplish more in today's game, i.e. average 40 ppg.

I disagree with some of what you said though. I still would say Lebron would be the best SF over Pippen today, and Duncan the best PF over Malone.

[QUOTE=dejordan]agreed. i like this quote from jordan in that same article (whether he believes it or not):[/QUOTE]
That's a great quote, and that man deserves a lot of respect. People in todays era would say, "Wilt played with unathletic white men, I would've averaged 80 a game in this or that era." But the fact of the matter is that it can't be proven. Jordan was the greatest in his era, and I think that hypothetically he would still be the greatest on an individual level in this era.

[QUOTE]SportsCentury is an Emmy award-winning ESPN biography program that reviews the people and athletic events that defined sports in North America throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.

In 1999, ESPN counted down the Top 50 Athletes of the 20th Century, voted on by a panel of sports journalists and observers, premiering a new biography highlighting each top athlete every week throughout the year.

Research for SportsCentury include more than 1,000 interviews, 50,000 photos, and 100,000 newspaper artifacts.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
[B]SportsCentury: Top 100 Athletes of the 20th Century[/B]

# 1. Michael Jordan
# 2. Babe Ruth
# 3. Muhammad Ali
# 4. Jim Brown
# 5. Wayne Gretzky
# 6. Jesse Owens
# 7. Jim Thorpe
# 8. Willie Mays
# 9. Jack Nicklaus
# 10. Babe Didrikson
# 11. Joe Louis
# 12. Carl Lewis
# 13. Wilt Chamberlain
# 14. Hank Aaron
# 15. Jackie Robinson
# 16. Ted Williams
# 17. Magic Johnson
# 18. Bill Russell
# 19. Martina Navratilova
# 20. Ty Cobb
# 21. Gordie Howe
# 22. Joe DiMaggio
# 23. Jackie Joyner-Kersee
# 24. Sugar Ray Robinson
# 25. Joe Montana[/QUOTE]


Look at all the great names on this list. And Michael Jordan is #1. Isn't that amazing? So you believe Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, or Kobe Bryant will end up higher than all these people?

Can we end the discussion now?

[QUOTE=guy]I disagree with some of what you said though. I still would say Lebron would be the best SF over Pippen today, and Duncan the best PF over Malone.[/QUOTE]

ya well that's arguable. I give mid 90s Pip the edge slightly over LeBron because of his defense and the fact that he played as a point forward too (although LeBron has better court vision) as well as his experience, especially after winning the first 3 titles with Jordan. As for Malone and Duncan, that is also very close. Would Duncan on those 97 and 98 Jazz teams would have beaten the Bulls? Especially since Duncan plays somewhat more as a center than Malone who was a 6-9 PF, and the fact that Rodman guarded centers more effectively than he did PF's.... especially a PF like Malone who could outmuscle Rodman. IMO Duncan is #2 on the alltime PF list. Malone wasn't as talented as Duncan at first, Malone made himself a great player with hard work. His workout regimens speak for themselves. It's arguable though since both comparisons are so close.

Generations move ahead, humanity is supposed to be turning smarter as the years go by and yet the same "if the X legend played/existed today, he'd be nothing special" stuff lingers on. Maybe (with Jordan) to a smaller degree than with others like Wilt/Russell, due to the abundance of footage after the 70's, but it does. Based on this logic, of course, the only "lucky" generation of viewers will be the ones before the economic (if not total) destruction of the world/the NBA.
On the other hand, though, I disagree with this:

[QUOTE]Michael Jordan will always be the greatest in Basketball
Babe Ruth will always be the greatest in Baseball
Wayne Gretzky will always be the greatest in Hockey
Ali will always be the greatest in Boxing[/QUOTE]

Apart from the fact that certain people have their objections with some of these choices, things aren't so romantic and simple, anyway. If "X will be forever the GOAT in his sport", well, this sport should better sooner or later disband, because no great player plays to become the #2 GOAT [B]at best[/B]. If they were to know the future that easily, they'd pick another sport or move to another league...

[QUOTE=dejordan]funniest thing about these threads, which pop up all the time, is:

A - the overwhelming evidence that jordan at least has an equal argument to anybody else for goat being ignored by young posters who didn't really watch him using theories that they've concocted that fly in the face of every top sports analyst of the last decade, as though nobody on the planet is as smart as their 13 year old ass.

B - the bizarre way that it's almost always lakers fan who side against mike - and not kobe fans really, but honest to god lakers fans. magic fans especially. which is fine, but odd. i almost never hear celtics fan toting bird or russell or phili fans on wilt.

anyway. even if you never saw him play a game, if 10 scoring titles, 6 finals mvps, 9 all-d teams, and one title for every season in which he played with another all-star doesn't at least merit consideration against anybody else you can think of, then you're just being obtuse. i wholeheartedly agree with really looking into your selection as deeply as possible and not just riding the popular wave to a conculsion, but writing off the accepted goat because you want to be different is just as stupid as accepting him because you want to fit in.[/QUOTE]

I've said B for the longest. I'm sure if you were to take a count of the posters that try to side against Mike, it will overwhelmingly be Laker fans. For some, I think they don't want to admit he was better than Magic and others are Kobe fanatics. Whatever the case, Laker fans really seem to have it in for Jordan at a rate much higher than fans of any other team.

* Most Three Point Field Goals Attempted in a Game, none made

* 11 by Antoine Walker vs. the Philadelphia 76ers on December 17, 2001

/thread

[QUOTE=SHEED_ gangsta]Isiah Rider (Jordan's student) was better than MJ if he did'nt mess up his carrer he'd be at an insane level right now[/QUOTE]

:wtf:

[QUOTE]B - the bizarre way that it's almost always lakers fan who side against mike - and not kobe fans really, but honest to god lakers fans. magic fans especially. which is fine, but odd. i almost never hear celtics fan toting bird or russell or phili fans on wilt.[/QUOTE]

Well, the main explanations, in short, are:

1) Some are young Kobe fans, with all the consequences.
2) The Lakers are one of the 2 most storied teams ever and 4-5 of the 10 greatest players ever played for them, even though some didn't spend their whole careers there. The Celtics, for all their titles, have "only" 2 such players. The only other team which has a case for more such players than one is Philadelphia, if you consider Dr.J top-10 ever.
3) One of the Celtics' 2 players is Bill Russell, who often gets accolades like "greatest winner ever" or "greatest team player ever", but his scoring and the fact that a good deal of fans don't respect his era get him only modest "greatest player ever" votes.

And an objection:

Quite contrary to some, I don't see more Magic fans calling Magic the GOAT than Bird ones. Go to Youtube videos' comments, Larry Bird tributes' comments, or comments in other sites like rateitall.com and you'll see a lot of [B]very [/B]high Bird praise, moreso than Magic, imo.