ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project: #2 Kobe Bryant vs Magic Johnson.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]All-Star MVP's are pretty much irrelevant. How much stock you going to put into the all-star games when they play little to no defense and is an exhibition game ?

Similar level of offensive domination my ass, there's nothing similar in their domination on offense. Kobe is a high volume scorer who can be a very deadily when he gets hot. Magic is a pass first point guard, who get's everyone involved in the offense, higher bball i.q. on offense, and more efficient guard.

Defensively ? Not much to say there. Though, Kobe's defense has been called into question over the years:

[url]http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/[/url]

Though, I try not too look at defensive ratings or advanced stats too much I found this shocking:

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career_p.html[/url]

There is virtually little difference between the two. But isn't Kobe supposed to be the one with All-Defense First Team's ? Shouldn't he be higher ? It's strange.

Really, it's not close from how I see it. Magic wins this.

Agree to Disagree.[/QUOTE]

I don't care about all star MVPs. The post I was responding to listed it among Magic's unbeatable accolades. It was just funny that Kobe outside of MVPs already has Magic beat in all of them.

Kobe is a shooting guard, Magic a point guard. Its the nature of the position for Kobe to score and Magic to pass. If Magic was forced to score more his efficiency would drop and if Kobe was asked to pass more his efficiency would increase.

+/- isn't a individual defensive metric. Opposing PER is and Kobe's opposing SG's were held to a 11.8 PER. What else do you want?

Why would it be shocking to you? Unlike Jordan, unlike Magic, unlike Bird, unlike Shaq, unlike Duncan, Kobe has never played with a teammate who made the first team all nba defensive team. Jordan had Pippen, Magic had Kareem, Bird had Mchale, Duncan had Bowen, Kobe had 3 seasons of Shaq's 2nd team defense and thats it. Defensive ratings are all about being on a great defensive team and the Kobe even in his championship runs was never on a elite regular season defense. It just makes his championship dominance that more impressive.

[QUOTE=Mr. I'm So Rad]:roll:[/QUOTE]

what is so funny about my post?

Kobe Bryant deserves 0 MVP. I repeat NONE. He is overrated and will stay overrated until the day he retires.

Chris Paul was clearly the best player in the NBA in 08 and he should have been given the MVP. He put up the GREATEST NUMBERS from a PG. (Yes better than Magic Johnson!)

[B]21.1PPG 11.6APG 5.5RPG 2.7SPG 49FG% 28.3PER 13.2OWS 17.8WS [/B]

New Orleans Hornets had won 56 games, and just lost 26 times. Lakers had won 57 games(with a better roster than the Hornets) just 1 more game than the Hornets. To remind you, nobody, and i mean nobody had the Hornets even making the playoffs that season, but yet, the best PG (at the time) and the best player (that year), did what he did, with that roster and brought back the city of New Orleans after that horrific Hurricane Katrina.

Salute to Chris Paul.

[CENTER][IMG]http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5257/5467706222_ec055944d1.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2008.html[/url]

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]fixed your post :oldlol:

Similar level of offensive domination... Kobe crushes Magic defensively

It's really not close at all.[/QUOTE]

defensively? Kobe Bryant making last season all NBA 1st defensive team, shows you how bad this league is screwed up. Kobe Bryant is overrated.

I can name at least 5 players who deserves a spot over him last season.

Excellent Offense kills o.k. Defense

[QUOTE=JordanTime]In those 5 championship.......how times did Kobe lead a team to the finals as the team best player?

2008 MVP is a joke. That Award had Chris Paul name written all over it.

[B]Kobe Bryant deserves NO MVP's. I repeat NO MVP[/B]!![/QUOTE]
Damn, you just went full retard.

[QUOTE=JordanTime]what is so funny about my post?

Kobe Bryant deserves 0 MVP. I repeat NONE. He is overrated and will stay overrated until the day he retires.

Chris Paul was clearly the best player in the NBA in 08 and he should have been given the MVP. He put up the GREATEST NUMBERS from a PG. (Yes better than Magic Johnson!)

[B]21.1PPG 11.6APG 5.5RPG 2.7SPG 49FG% 28.3PER 13.2OWS 17.8WS [/B]

New Orleans Hornets had won 56 games, and just lost 26 times. Lakers had won 57 games(with a better roster than the Hornets) just 1 more game than the Hornets. To remind you, nobody, and i mean nobody had the Hornets even making the playoffs that season, but yet, the best PG (at the time) and the best player (that year), did what he did, with that roster and brought back the city of New Orleans after that horrific Hurricane Katrina.

Salute to Chris Paul.

[CENTER][IMG]http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5257/5467706222_ec055944d1.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2008.html[/url][/QUOTE]

Kobe was easily the best player in 08

[QUOTE=JordanTime]defensively? Kobe Bryant making last season all NBA 1st defensive team, shows you how bad this league is screwed up. Kobe Bryant is overrated.

Excellent Offense kills o.k. Defense[/QUOTE]

Whether or not you agree with Kobe Bryant making his [B][U]11th [/U][/B] all defensive team isn't really relevant in the defensive comparison between Magic and Kobe.

It's 11 vs 0, not 11 vs 10.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Whether or not you agree with Kobe Bryant making his [B][U]11th [/U][/B] all defensive team isn't really relevant in the defensive comparison between Magic and Kobe.

It's 11 vs 0, not 11 vs 10.[/QUOTE]
He shouldn't have 10 either. Or 9. Or 8. Or 7.

[QUOTE=RRR3]He shouldn't have 10 either. Or 9. Or 8. Or 7.[/QUOTE]

or 6? or 5? or 4? or 3? or 2? or 1? :oldlol:

If we are going to pretend that Magic and Kobe are in the same galaxy on defense we might as well pretend that Kobe has some sort of mind control on all the coaches in the league that have recognized his defensive skills throughout his career and they ALL have been unwarranted.

Its just truly amazing that Kobe somehow according to ISHers reaps awards off his defensive reputation still to this day yet somehow never did anything to earn that defensive reputation in the first place. Its truly one of life's biggest mysteries. It also funny how only Kobe's awards have been influenced by his reputation. It began with Kobe and only Kobe.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]or 6? or 5? or 4? or 3? or 2? or 1? :oldlol:

If we are going to pretend that Magic and Kobe are in the same galaxy on defense we might as well pretend that Kobe has some sort of mind control on all the coaches in the league that have recognized his defensive skills throughout his career and they ALL have been unwarranted.[/QUOTE]
Noticed I stopped after 7. :rolleyes: IDK how many he really should have, but no more than 5 or 6.

[QUOTE=The-Legend-24]Damn, you just went full retard.[/QUOTE]

When has Kobe ever deserved a MVP?

05-06? When the Lakers failed to win 50+ games..............not in this league buddy. (No League's MVP team had failed to win over 50+ games)

06-07? See Above. (No League's MVP team had failed to win over 50+ games)

07-08? [url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6380710&postcount=288[/url]

Chris Paul was the [B]REAL MVP [/B]of the 2007-2008 NBA Season!

Please explain.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]or 6? or 5? or 4? or 3? or 2? or 1? :oldlol:

If we are going to pretend that Magic and Kobe are in the same galaxy on defense we might as well pretend that Kobe has some sort of mind control on all the coaches in the league that have recognized his defensive skills throughout his career and they ALL have been unwarranted.[/QUOTE]

magic actually averaged more steals per game, and was often tasked with guarding 6-1 point guards who were obviously a lot quicker than him

was kobe a better defender? sure. but they're in the same galaxy, maybe even the same solar system

[QUOTE=RRR3]Noticed I stopped after 7. :rolleyes: IDK how many he really should have, but no more than 5 or 6.[/QUOTE]

6 is more than 1st team defenses than Kareem, more than Bruce Bowen, more than Michael Cooper, more than Ben Wallace, more than Hakeem Olajuwon. You are going to have to take away more than that to pretend that Kobe isn't a significantly more accomplished and talented defender than Magic Johnson.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]6 is more than 1st team defenses than Kareem, more than Bruce Bowen, more than Michael Cooper, more than Ben Wallace, more than Hakeem Olajuwon. You are going to have to take away more than that to pretend that Kobe isn't a significantly more accomplished and talented defender than Magic Johnson.[/QUOTE]

I meant 6 total. Most 2nd team probably. And when did I say Kobe wasn't a good deal better than Magic on D? Not arguing this but Kobe doesn't deserve more than 2 or 3 first team all D selections.

[QUOTE=RRR3]I meant 6 total. Most 2nd team probably. And when did I say Kobe wasn't a good deal better than Magic on D? Not arguing this but Kobe doesn't deserve more than 2 or 3 first team all D selections.[/QUOTE]

Why wouldn't you argue it? Why make the statement if your not going to back it up with anything? Because you know it sounds ridiculous?

Magic Johnson only deserved 2 or 3 first team all nba awards but I'm not going to argue it. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Why wouldn't you argue it? Why make the statement if your not going to back it up with anything? Because you know it sounds ridiculous?

Magic Johnson only deserved 2 or 3 first team all nba awards but I'm not going to argue it. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Kobe Bryant has always been overrated defensively. In no way should Kobe Bryant own 11 total All NBA Defensive teams. I'd say he should only have a couple. And that was time when Shaq was around.