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Great writeups since I last checked in G.O.A.T. :applause:
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Jackie Jackson
Earl Manigualt
Pee Wee Kirkland
Joe Hammond
Fly Williams
Herman Helicopter
Bill The Kid Harris
Raymond Lewis
Hook Mitchell
NBA Players
Wilt Chamberlain
Lew Alcindor
Dr. J
Black Jesus
Nate the Skate
Charlie Scott
Elgin Baylor
Rafer Alston[/QUOTE]
Thanks!
I think Adrian Dantley is far too low. He was too dominant of a scorer to not even crack the top 100? Yeah, his Jazz weren't winning a lot early on but they started to make the playoffs his finals seasons there.
In the post he was basically Kevin McHale but 6 inches shorter (and weaker defense.)
His seasons over 25 ppg (29.6 to be exact) and to go along with 6.7 rpg and 3.7 apg.
79-80 Adrian Dantley (28.0 ppg on 58.0%)
80-81 Adrian Dantley (30.7 ppg on 55.9%)
81-82 Adrian Dantley (30.3 ppg on 57.0%)
82-83 Adrian Dantley (30.7 ppg on 58.0%)
83-84 Adrian Dantley (30.6 ppg on 55.8%)
84-85 Adrian Dantley (26.6 ppg on 53.1%)
85-86 Adrian Dantley (29.8 ppg on 56.7)
That is ridiculous for a 6'4 small forward.
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#114 Amar'e Carsares Stoudemire
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[b]Vitals:[/b] 6
[QUOTE=G.O.A.T][B]As strong as your argument is, I have an even better counterpoint...No.[/B]
Looks like I win this time.
Mutombo is certainly not a top fifty player all-time. He never led a team past the second round, he was never an MVP candidate...without being elite as the leader of a team or as an individual player you're not getting in the top 50.[/QUOTE]
:roll:
Ha ha I love that answer
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#113 Paul Douglas Westphal
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[b]Vitals:[/b] 6
Wonder if Big Ben makes the top 100.
I'd switch Amar'e and Kemp. Westphal is hard to rank but good seeing him this high up.
First of all, I just want to say I appreciate this project greatly and read every bit. Thank you for putting in the time to share this. I can't imagine how much work goes into a project like this.
One thing I see that I'm not sure I agree with is Mutombo's placement.
I'm a huge believer in guys like Dennis Rodman, Ben Wallace, and Dikembe Mutombo - guys who's impact goes way beyond the stat sheet.
I see Rodman as somewhere in that 35-50 range, and Wallace somewhere in the 55-70 range. I'm sure most would say I overrate Dennis Rodman, and maybe that's the case. Almost all of the other players likely in that 35-50 range outclass him on an individual basis, but I just don't see very many situations - in any era - where I'm taking a guy like Sam Jones, Hal Greer or Tony Parker over Rodman. I could even see myself taking Rodman over someone like Drexler in certain circumstances; the second 3-peat Bulls are a one such circumstance.
My logic tells me there's not that much that separates Rodman from a guy like Wallace.
- Rodman is the GOAT rebounder(above Wilt or Russell), but Wallace isn't that far behind
- Rodman brings more intangibles imo(energy, hustle, spirit), but I tend to hold Wallace in high regards there as well
- Rodman was a more versatile defender(only guy I've ever seen that was a terror on the perimeter and also a suitable cover for Shaq), but Wallace was a better interior defender
Similarly, I struggle to see what separates Wallace from Mutombo. Wallace has some of the same advantages over Mutombo that Rodman has over him, but I see less of a gap between Wallace and Mutombo than I do Rodman and Wallace. Neither Rodman nor Wallace were really better defenders than Mutombo. I think they give you more energy, hustle, and intangibles(Rodman more-so than Wallace), but Mutombo was also capable of being a somewhat decent 3rd option.
Not saying you're wrong, as I'm sure you've spent much more time thinking about this than I have, but what separates Mutombo from guys like Wallace and Rodman in your mind? I'm hoping your answer isn't "Nothing" as I think dropping either of those other two guys outside of the top 90 or so would be drastically underselling their value to a championship caliber team - especially Rodman.
[QUOTE=DatAsh]First of all, I just want to say I appreciate this project greatly and read every bit. Thank you for putting in the time to share this. I can't imagine how much work goes into a project like this.
One thing I see that I'm not sure I agree with is Mutombo's placement.
I'm a huge believer in guys like Dennis Rodman, Ben Wallace, and Dikembe Mutombo - guys who's impact goes way beyond the stat sheet.
I see Rodman as somewhere in that 35-50 range, and Wallace somewhere in the 55-70 range. I'm sure most would say I overrate Dennis Rodman, and maybe that's the case. Almost all of the other players likely in that 35-50 range outclass him on an individual basis, but I just don't see very many situations - in any era - where I'm taking a guy like Sam Jones, Hal Greer or Tony Parker over Rodman. I could even see myself taking Rodman over someone like Drexler in certain circumstances; the second 3-peat Bulls are a one such circumstance.
My logic tells me there's not that much that separates Rodman from a guy like Wallace.
- Rodman is the GOAT rebounder(above Wilt or Russell), but Wallace isn't that far behind
- Rodman brings more intangibles imo(energy, hustle, spirit), but I tend to hold Wallace in high regards there as well
- Rodman was a more versatile defender(only guy I've ever seen that was a terror on the perimeter and also a suitable cover for Shaq), but Wallace was a better interior defender
Similarly, I struggle to see what separates Wallace from Mutombo. Wallace has some of the same advantages over Mutombo that Rodman has over him, but I see less of a gap between Wallace and Mutombo than I do Rodman and Wallace. Neither Rodman nor Wallace were really better defenders than Mutombo. I think they give you more energy, hustle, and intangibles(Rodman more-so than Wallace), but Mutombo was also capable of being a somewhat decent 3rd option.
Not saying you're wrong, as I'm sure you've spent much more time thinking about this than I have, but what separates Mutombo from guys like Wallace and Rodman in your mind? I'm hoping your answer isn't "Nothing" as I think dropping either of those other two guys outside of the top 90 or so would be drastically underselling their value to a championship caliber team - especially Rodman.[/QUOTE]
I agree about Deke.
Mutombo was part of the biggest upset in NBA history. Knocking out the #1 64 win seed (without looking it up, I think they won 64 games.) A lot of folks had them at the least coming out of the West.
Deke didn't have the teams that Wallace and Rodman had. Even then, he has more All-Star appearances than both combined, the same amount of DPOYs as Wallace, more All-NBA teams than Rodman, same amount of rebounding titles as Wallace. Three blocked shots titles. He avg double figure in points 11 seasons peaking at over 16 ppg. Rodman did it once right over 11 ppg and Wallaces high in PPG is 9.7. Deke has 6 All-D teams, and that's with battling Olajuwon, Robinson and Zo (and up and coming Ben Wallace.)
Before he got to Philly, his best teammates were Steve Smith and Mookie Blaylock.
I have him right inside the top 100.
Bump in hopes to revive this thread. Would love to see how your list turns out
It is too frustrating to type with one hand and still too painful to use, two. Very soon I'll be going at this list and finishing it (without full bios for the top 100) by the start of the NBA season. 3-5 players a day 5-6 days a week during October.
Thanks for the support.
[QUOTE=DatAsh]First of all, I just want to say I appreciate this project greatly and read every bit. Thank you for putting in the time to share this. I can't imagine how much work goes into a project like this.
One thing I see that I'm not sure I agree with is Mutombo's placement.
I'm a huge believer in guys like Dennis Rodman, Ben Wallace, and Dikembe Mutombo - guys who's impact goes way beyond the stat sheet.
[/QUOTE]
Shortened the quote just because it takes up too much space. Hope you don't mind, especially since I'll be referencing it as a whole, rather than specific parts.
Rodman, Big Ben, and Mutombo would rank higher on a "I need to win a championship" lists than they would a "greatest player ever" list.
Judging by the title, and GOAT can correct me if I'm wrong, it looks like he's attempting to rank players based on GOAT status, and not how they'd fit into a championship team or fill a necessary role.
If I were to draft an actual team, I'd pick Rodman in the 4th-6th round, assuming 10-14 teams. If I'm ranking players, Rodman falls below the 40-84 range that I just specified.
With those three players in particular, it's all about context. But the list has to, at some point, disregard context and just rank players without assuming context. Especially considering something like... for the current Bulls team, prime Kobe would be a better fit than prime Jordan, just based on shooting ability. Not saying they wouldn't win with prime Jordan, because they would, but I hope you get my point. Team context can be so picky, and change so quickly, that it's hard to rely on that for a ranking.
Appreciate the knowledge and work behind this.. Keep it coming.
[QUOTE=kshutts1]Shortened the quote just because it takes up too much space. Hope you don't mind, especially since I'll be referencing it as a whole, rather than specific parts.
Rodman, Big Ben, and Mutombo would rank higher on a "I need to win a championship" lists than they would a "greatest player ever" list.
Judging by the title, and GOAT can correct me if I'm wrong, it looks like he's attempting to rank players based on GOAT status, and not how they'd fit into a championship team or fill a necessary role.
If I were to draft an actual team, I'd pick Rodman in the 4th-6th round, assuming 10-14 teams. If I'm ranking players, Rodman falls below the 40-84 range that I just specified.
With those three players in particular, it's all about context. But the list has to, at some point, disregard context and just rank players without assuming context. Especially considering something like... for the current Bulls team, prime Kobe would be a better fit than prime Jordan, just based on shooting ability. Not saying they wouldn't win with prime Jordan, because they would, but I hope you get my point. Team context can be so picky, and change so quickly, that it's hard to rely on that for a ranking.[/QUOTE]
How do you rate Bill Russell?
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]How do you rate Bill Russell?[/QUOTE]
If that's a "where", then in my top tier. So top 8 of all time.
If it's an actual "how", he was the straight up leader of the most winningest dynasty of all time. Most likely best defensive player ever. Shot in the top 5 for FG% in multiple years iirc. One of the best passing big men.
His game is leaps and bounds beyond that of Big Ben or Mutombo. Only on defense are there anywhere near, and even there they fall way short.