ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project: #2 Kobe Bryant vs Magic Johnson.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]or 6? or 5? or 4? or 3? or 2? or 1? :oldlol:

If we are going to pretend that Magic and Kobe are in the same galaxy on defense we might as well pretend that Kobe has some sort of mind control on all the coaches in the league that have recognized his defensive skills throughout his career and they ALL have been unwarranted.

Its just truly amazing that Kobe somehow according to ISHers reaps awards off his defensive reputation still to this day yet somehow never did anything to earn that defensive reputation in the first place. Its truly one of life's biggest mysteries. It also funny how only Kobe's awards have been influenced by his reputation. It began with Kobe and only Kobe.[/QUOTE]

No were not pretending that, at all. Kobe's defense is just no game changer to me. That article proves it.

And no all-defense first team defender ? Shaq's presence in the paint alone is more impact defensively than that off any wing defender. He also was runner up for DPOY in 2000 (should have won it really). Also when you say held down to low PER, it doesn't necessarily mean that Kobe guarded them the whole game. Also, Ron Artest was a former DPOY winner joining that team.

Okay, so let me get this straight. Only on ISH, Kobe reaps benefits from reputation ? Um, let's see:

[url]http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsTaiCgtwNA[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cueDm2Nkl3s[/url]

[url]http://www.clublakers.com/lakers-discussion/even-must-admit-kobe-defense-very-overrated-t82574-40.html[/url]

[url]http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2007/03/tex-winter-agrees-with-basketbawful.html[/url]

[url]http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2007/03/kobe-nash-and-defensive-myth.html[/url]

[url]http://www.clipsnation.com/2009/5/11/872400/the-myth-of-kobe[/url]

[url]http://bleacherreport.com/articles/445288-kobe-bryant-the-man-the-myth-the-legend#/articles/445288-kobe-bryant-the-man-the-myth-the-legend/page/4[/url]

Yet all these sources and Tex Winter say that he coasts or either doesn't play sound defense correctly ? That some of his All-NBA Defense First Teams are a joke ? Yes, only on ISH, apparently.

And again, nobody said he didn't deserve All-Defense First team, you are. That's the problem with some of you Kobe homers. You exgerrate so much B.S. about others opinions because you are so insecure if someone brings these things into context. It's like you vicariously live through Kobe.

It's funny how only Kobe's fan base can genereate this much insecurity about other people's opinions and objectivity about the man. It sounds like, it began with Kobe and only Kobe.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]No were not pretending that, at all. Kobe's defense is just no game changer to me. That article proves it.

And no all-defense first team defender ? Shaq's presence in the paint alone is more impact defensively than that off any wing defender. He also was runner up for DPOY in 2000 (should have won it really). Also when you say held down to low PER, it doesn't necessarily mean that Kobe guarded them the whole game. Also, Ron Artest was a former DPOY winner joining that team.

Okay, so let me get this straight. Only on ISH, Kobe reaps benefits from reputation ? Um, let's see:

[url]http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsTaiCgtwNA[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cueDm2Nkl3s[/url]

[url]http://www.clublakers.com/lakers-discussion/even-must-admit-kobe-defense-very-overrated-t82574-40.html[/url]

[url]http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2007/03/tex-winter-agrees-with-basketbawful.html[/url]

[url]http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2007/03/kobe-nash-and-defensive-myth.html[/url]

[url]http://www.clipsnation.com/2009/5/11/872400/the-myth-of-kobe[/url]

[url]http://bleacherreport.com/articles/445288-kobe-bryant-the-man-the-myth-the-legend#/articles/445288-kobe-bryant-the-man-the-myth-the-legend/page/4[/url]

Yet all these sources and Tex Winter say that he coasts or either doesn't play sound defense correctly ? That some of his All-NBA Defense First Teams are a joke ? Yes, only on ISH, apparently.

And again, nobody said he didn't deserve All-Defense First team, you are. That's the problem with some of you Kobe homers. You exgerrate so much B.S. about others opinions because you are so insecure if someone brings these things into context. It's like you vicariously live through Kobe.

It's funny how only Kobe's fan base can genereate this much insecurity about other people's opinions and objectivity about the man. It sounds like, it began with Kobe and only Kobe.[/QUOTE]

Wow amazing post, and thanks for the links.

Love that first article, i re-call reading that when it was first posted online.

[QUOTE=JordanTime]Wow amazing post, and thanks for the links.

Love that first article, i re-call reading that when it was first posted online.[/QUOTE]

No problem.

I'm not even denying Kobe has been a solid defender in the past. He's just hasn't been all that deserving off these first teams.

Some people just hate on the objective look. Also this link too from Real GM:

[url]http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=911506[/url]

Yet ISH is the only place that thinks about Kobe this way...

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]No problem.

I'm not even denying Kobe has been a solid defender in the past. He's just hasn't been all that deserving off these first teams.

Some people just hate on the objective look. Also this link too from Real GM:

[url]http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=911506[/url][/QUOTE]

Yeah, Kobe does deserve a few, but 11!! Just shows you how much of a joke this award has become.

Tony Allen
Wesley Johnson
Dwayne Wade
Keith Bogans
Joe Johnson

were all better defensively last season. I could add a few more guys to that list.

just so everyone can see this

[IMG]http://asubstituteforwar.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/defrapm1011.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]No problem.

I'm not even denying Kobe has been a solid defender in the past. He's just hasn't been all that deserving off these first teams.

Some people just hate on the objective look. Also this link too from Real GM:

[url]http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=911506[/url]

Yet ISH is the only place that thinks about Kobe this way...[/QUOTE]

Hmmmmm NBA coaches or random internet message board posters???

Which opinion should we value more?

Hating on Kobe has been a passion for many since he declared for the draft. I would be surprised if you could find any awards he has been given that wasn't accompanied on the net by some random internet message board experts arguing against its selection.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Hmmmmm NBA coaches or random internet message board posters???

Which opinion should we value more?

Hating on Kobe has been a passion for many since he declared for the draft. I would be surprised if you could find any awards he has been given that wasn't accompanied on the net by some random internet message board experts arguing against its selection.[/QUOTE]

Nice to see you ignore my previous post that had Tex Winter say this about Kobe:

[IMG]http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2007/03/tex-winter-agrees-with-basketbawful.html[/IMG]

The main message that Winter, a Lakers consultant, would like to get across to Bryant is that the problem is not his offense.

"I’d like to see him [U][B]play better defense[/B][/U]," Winter said, adding that he had addressed the issue recently with Bryant but didn't come away with the idea that Bryant was intent on changing his approach.

"You know Kobe," Winter said with a chuckle. "He has his game plan. I think he heard me. But he feels there's a certain way he’s got to play the game. But it doesn’t involve a lot of [B][U]basically sound defense."[/U][/B]

Because the Lakers need so much of his effort at the offensive end, Bryant [B][U]has adopted a save-energy plan on the defensive end[/U][/B], Winter said. "He's basically playing a lot of one-man zone. He's doing a lot of switching, zoning up, trying to come up with the interception.

"The way [U][B]Kobe plays defensively affects the team[/B][/U]," Winter added. "[U][B]Anybody that doesn’t play consistently good defense hurts the team.[/B][/U] That's not only Kobe. Our other guards tend to gamble and get beat. Another problem is that the screen and roll is not played correctly."


You are the one who said only ISH says this about Kobe and I should you Real GM, Lakers Forums, Youtube, etc... Didn't know exactly what you were trying to say.

Hating on Kobe ? No, it has nothing to do with "hate". Why every damn Kobe fan uses this to deflect the topic at hand is beyond me. I've never even met the man. But yes, I "hate" him.

Don't get surprised that this stuff pops up. I don't personally agree with some of them, but if were going to go with some Kobe half-truth's, we can go with the Kobe objectivity as well.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Nice to see you ignore my previous post that had Tex Winter say this about Kobe:

[IMG]http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2007/03/tex-winter-agrees-with-basketbawful.html[/IMG]

You are the one who said only ISH says this about Kobe and I should you Real GM, Lakers Forums, Youtube, etc... Didn't know exactly what you were trying to say.

Hating on Kobe ? No, it has nothing to do with "hate". Why every damn Kobe fan uses this to deflect the topic at hand is beyond me. I've never even met the man. But yes, I "hate" him.

Don't get surprised that this stuff pops up. I don't personally agree with some of them, but if were going to go with some Kobe half-truth's, we can go with the Kobe objectivity as well.[/QUOTE]

Of course it does. Kobe's accolades are treated with a fine toothed comb. No other legend gets the same treatment. Do you see anybody really hyped about how many all defensive team awards Michael Jordan [I]really[/I] earned? When he won the DPOY did anybody bother to create some obscure formula like regularized adjusted +/- (RAPM) to find out that the best defensive player was probably some scrub big man who wouldnt even be in the league without his defensive abilities?

The idea of any player Kobe included winning awards based on his past reputation is even remotely controversial. The funny thing is you guys like to pretend this phenomena begins and ends with Kobe. Every single legend in this game has had a reputation that over inflated his perceived skills as their career progressed. Magic made the all star team for a year he didn't even play. He's won a Finals MVP on the basis of a single game.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Nice to see you ignore my previous post that had Tex Winter say this about Kobe:

[IMG]http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2007/03/tex-winter-agrees-with-basketbawful.html[/IMG]

The main message that Winter, a Lakers consultant, would like to get across to Bryant is that the problem is not his offense.

"I

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Of course it does. Kobe's accolades are treated with a fine toothed comb. No other legend gets the same treatment. Do you see anybody really hyped about how many all defensive team awards Michael Jordan [I]really[/I] earned? When he won the DPOY did anybody bother to create some obscure formula like regularized adjusted +/- (RAPM) to find out that the best defensive player was probably some scrub big man who wouldnt even be in the league without his defensive abilities?

The idea of any player Kobe included winning awards based on his past reputation is even remotely controversial. The funny thing is you guys like to pretend this phenomena begins and ends with Kobe. Every single legend in this game has had a reputation that over inflated his perceived skills as their career progressed. Magic made the all star team for a year he didn't even play. He's won a Finals MVP on the basis of a single game.[/QUOTE]
Simple question since you seem to watch Kobe a lot. Did he deserve the 1st team award in 11.

[B]BREAKING NEWS! Tex Winter said Michael Jordan is the worst passer in NBA History!!![/B]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/8pUmr.png[/IMG]

:facepalm

[QUOTE=juju151111]Simple question since you seem to watch Kobe a lot. Did he deserve the 1st team award in 11.[/QUOTE]


[IMG]http://asubstituteforwar.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/defrapm1011.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=juju151111]Simple question since you seem to watch Kobe a lot. Did he deserve the 1st team award in 11.[/QUOTE]

I don't know. I watched the Lakers. I didn't Wesley Johnson play lockdown defense "according to the advanced stats" for one of the worst defenses in the league for 82 games.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot][B]BREAKING NEWS! Tex Winter said Michael Jordan is the worst passer in NBA History!!![/B]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/8pUmr.png[/IMG]

:facepalm[/QUOTE]
Total missed the point if you own evidence. Dumb has hell. It was a motivational tatic. MJ said it himself you dumbass. Phil knows how he ticks. I do agree with you through to an extent. I think Kobe deserves Atleast 4-5 and a few 2nd team. I don't know why this is relevant because a blind man can see Magic has no defense. Go watch any game and I mean any game when he vs a decent Pg.

[QUOTE=juju151111]Total missed the point if you own evidence. Dumb has hell. It was a motivational tatic. MJ said it himself you dumbass. Phil knows how he ticks. I do agree with you through to an extent. I think Kobe deserves Atleast 4-5 and a few 2nd team. I don't know why this is relevant because a blind man can see Magic has no defense. Go watch any game and I mean any game when he vs a decent Pg.[/QUOTE]

Magic Johnson didn't guard opposing teams point guards.

Magic Johnson guarded either the 2,3,4. aka a Versatlie Defender.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]I don't know. I watched the Lakers. I didn't Wesley Johnson play lockdown defense "according to the advanced stats" for one of the worst defenses in the league for 82 games.[/QUOTE]
Hmm I watch the lakes too. Ok since you do then you will agree with me that Kobe has turned into a roamer on defense and gives up 3 pointers all the time. He hasn't been solid in about 2-3 years. I mean you watch the lakes right?