Re: A Rookie 1984 Michael Jordan or a Current Kobe Bryant?
[QUOTE=Shep]he was getting the same attempts. are you going to blame kobe for his 5 less fg% and 37%FT? :roll:[/QUOTE]
He wasn't getting the same attempts because he got more FTA as well once Kobe started playing more team basketball.
[QUOTE]yes, but those same playoff series' proved that kobe's increased points didn't stop the lakers from being successful[/QUOTE]
Yeah, as long as Shaq was still the teams leading scorer.
[QUOTE]quit looking at the stat pages and watch their games. both are point guards with a scorers mentality. guys like baron davis, allen iverson, and steve francis are all in the same boat.[/QUOTE]
Guys like Iverson and Arenas are much different than the rest. Arenas and Iverson seem like undersized 2 guards or combo guards. In fact Iverson did play shooting guard for a while under Larry Brown. The best comparison of those guys to Penny is Francis.
[QUOTE]:oldlol: tell me about it. he played with 2 of the top 3 most valuable players in the entire league in '05[/QUOTE]
Shaq didn't get traded to Phoenix for 3 more years. :D Stoudemire and Marion weren't in the top 5 as far as I'm concerned. Marion had a much better case in 2006. Stoudemire however should be a good candidate for MVP next season if Phoenix remains a 50 plus win team.
[QUOTE]shaq, duncan, webber, and garnett all deserved it more than iverson.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I agree. I'd go in that order for MVP that season except for possibly Iverson over KG.
Re: A Rookie 1984 Michael Jordan or a Current Kobe Bryant?
[QUOTE]He wasn't getting the same attempts because he got more FTA as well once Kobe started playing more team basketball.[/QUOTE]
last 4 months of the season (when shaq finally woke up and started playing well) = 19.4fgapg, first 2 months (when shaq was moping): 19fgapg. he was getting the same attempts.
[QUOTE]Yeah, as long as Shaq was still the teams leading scorer.[/QUOTE]
wrong. kobe was the leading scorer in the sweep of sacramento, and outscored shaq by over 6ppg in the sweep of san antonio.
[QUOTE]Guys like Iverson and Arenas are much different than the rest. Arenas and Iverson seem like undersized 2 guards or combo guards. In fact Iverson did play shooting guard for a while under Larry Brown. The best comparison of those guys to Penny is Francis.[/QUOTE]
penny was a combo guard. and i'm not saying he played like iverson or arenas, i'm saying he had a scorers mentality while being his teams point guard - just like those players, but to a lesser extent
[QUOTE]Shaq didn't get traded to Phoenix for 3 more years[/QUOTE]
:lol
[QUOTE]Stoudemire and Marion weren't in the top 5 as far as I'm concerned.[/QUOTE]
:lol
[QUOTE]Marion had a much better case in 2006. Stoudemire however should be a good candidate for MVP next season if Phoenix remains a 50 plus win team.[/QUOTE]
marion was also top 3 most valuabe in '06, and stoudemire might need to develop other parts of his game besides scoring if he wants to become a league mvp in the future.
Re: A Rookie 1984 Michael Jordan or a Current Kobe Bryant?
[QUOTE=Shep]last 4 months of the season (when shaq finally woke up and started playing well) = 19.4fgapg, first 2 months (when shaq was moping): 19fgapg. he was getting the same attempts.[/QUOTE]
Kobe averaged a ridiculous 23.2 FGA per game prior to the all-star break. That's too much for the second option.
[QUOTE]wrong. kobe was the leading scorer in the sweep of sacramento, and outscored shaq by over 6ppg in the sweep of san antonio.[/QUOTE]
That isn't a full season, I'm talking about for the season. For the regular season, for the playoffs and the finals Shaq was the leading scorer and that's when the team is at it's best. That forces teams to double and triple Shaq which frees up space for Kobe to finish at the basket or get open shots like in those 2 series you mentioned.
[QUOTE]penny was a combo guard. and i'm not saying he played like iverson or arenas, i'm saying he had a scorers mentality while being his teams point guard - just like those players, but to a lesser extent[/QUOTE]
Fair enough, although to me he always seemed like a point guard more than anything.
[QUOTE]marion was also top 3 most valuabe in '06[/QUOTE]
I hope you at least have Wade ahead of Marion that year.
27 ppg, 6 rpg, 7 apg, 50% from the field as easily the best player on a 52 win team. Wade also made many clutch shots down the stretch.
Lebron also had a great season with 31, 7 and 7 on a 50 win team with scrubs for teammates.
Kobe also had a superhuman season with 35 ppg and he led a team with not much talent to the playoffs but it's hard to win MVP with just 45 wins.
Billups was also a strong candidate for MVP with 18.5 ppg, 8.6 apg, great perimeter shooting, great defense and clutch plays on a 64 win team.
[QUOTE]and stoudemire might need to develop other parts of his game besides scoring if he wants to become a league mvp in the future.[/QUOTE]
Stoudemire's passing is improving and now he is back at his natural position. His rebounding has always been pretty good as well at 9.1 rebounds per game and once Shaq retires or gets injured you could see that easily go over 10 per game. He is also a good shot blocker who has all the tools to be a good defender and maybe now with a new coach that'll happen.
They might not give it to him because of how much talent is on his team and the fact that Steve Nash gets overrated but it's possible. What other 25 ppg scorers shoot 59% from the field and 81% from the line?
Kobe, Chris Paul, KG and Duncan should be somewhere among the candidates but I don't think Lebron will win enough games to get serious consideration and KG, Duncan and Kobe have all won it before not to mention they all have deep supporting casts. So the MVP race will be wide open.
Re: A Rookie 1984 Michael Jordan or a Current Kobe Bryant?
[QUOTE]Kobe averaged a ridiculous 23.2 FGA per game prior to the all-star break. That's too much for the second option.[/QUOTE]
someone had to score, shaq wasn't, kobe had to step up.
[QUOTE]That isn't a full season, I'm talking about for the season.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol: but i mentioned it was in the playoffs and you replied to it knowing this.
[QUOTE]For the regular season, for the playoffs and the finals Shaq was the leading scorer and that's when the team is at it's best. That forces teams to double and triple Shaq which frees up space for Kobe to finish at the basket or get open shots like in those 2 series you mentioned.[/QUOTE]
wait, so the lakers are at their best when shaq is the leading scorer, which forces teams to double and triple shaq - which is what they did in those two series? kobe was the leading scorer in those two series :roll: wtf are you talking about? the lakers were (out of all the regular season and the playoffs) most impressive in the spurs series - when they swept the team with the best record in the nba, and kobe was the most valuable player of that series with averages of 33.3ppg, 7rpg, and 7apg on 51%FG
[QUOTE]I hope you at least have Wade ahead of Marion that year.
27 ppg, 6 rpg, 7 apg, 50% from the field as easily the best player on a 52 win team. Wade also made many clutch shots down the stretch.[/QUOTE]
nope, wade was 7th most valuable
[QUOTE]Lebron also had a great season with 31, 7 and 7 on a 50 win team with scrubs for teammates.[/QUOTE]
yes, lebron was 1 of 2 players more valuable than marion that year
[QUOTE]Kobe also had a superhuman season with 35 ppg and he led a team with not much talent to the playoffs but it's hard to win MVP with just 45 wins.[/QUOTE]
kobe was 9th
[QUOTE]Billups was also a strong candidate for MVP with 18.5 ppg, 8.6 apg, great perimeter shooting, great defense and clutch plays on a 64 win team.
[/QUOTE]
fifth
[QUOTE]Stoudemire's passing is improving and now he is back at his natural position. His rebounding has always been pretty good as well at 9.1 rebounds per game and once Shaq retires or gets injured you could see that easily go over 10 per game. He is also a good shot blocker who has all the tools to be a good defender and maybe now with a new coach that'll happen.[/QUOTE]
only time will tell. i'll definately be watching him closely this upcoming season. right now with the team they got i don't feel as if they can be successful enough for amare to contend for the mvp going by how they performed last season after the trade for shaq.
[QUOTE]They might not give it to him because of how much talent is on his team and the fact that Steve Nash gets overrated but it's possible. What other 25 ppg scorers shoot 59% from the field and 81% from the line?[/QUOTE]
the team isn't really that talented any more with shawn marion gone. nash is still a top 5 point guard, but he struggled the most out of everyone after the shaq trade, and they will need to learn how to play together and maximize everyone's talents if they want to be successful.
[QUOTE]Kobe, Chris Paul, KG and Duncan should be somewhere among the candidates but I don't think Lebron will win enough games to get serious consideration and KG, Duncan and Kobe have all won it before not to mention they all have deep supporting casts. So the MVP race will be wide open.[/QUOTE]
chris paul should've "won" the mvp this season, considering he deserved it, and as a 22 year old he'll only get better so if he stays injury free he'll definately deserve the award again. he's my pick. duncan finished outside the top 5 for the first time in his career in '08 (besides '05 when he missed 16 games), and i feel as though he will never be in serious consideration again.
Re: A Rookie 1984 Michael Jordan or a Current Kobe Bryant?
What kind of retarded question is that?
Kobe>MJ.
Re: A Rookie 1984 Michael Jordan or a Current Kobe Bryant?
[QUOTE=Shep]someone had to score, shaq wasn't, kobe had to step up.[/QUOTE]
Shaq was averaging about 27 ppg despite Kobe's chucking.
The team also was much better in the second half when Shaq was getting his usual shots. Shaq averaged 30.8 ppg after the all-star break and the team went 25-10 while Kobe averaged 25.3 ppg and missed 14 of those games. The team was 11-3 in the 14 games Bryant missed.
[QUOTE]:oldlol: but i mentioned it was in the playoffs and you replied to it knowing this.[/QUOTE]
For an extended time like a regular season or even a playoff run Shaq had to be the leading scorer because the team was built around him and Kobe wasn't yet at the level where you could build a title team around him.
[QUOTE]wait, so the lakers are at their best when shaq is the leading scorer, which forces teams to double and triple shaq - which is what they did in those two series? kobe was the leading scorer in those two series :roll: wtf are you talking about?[/QUOTE]
Use some common sense. Shaq had been the leading scorer for the regular season, the first round and outscored Kobe by 5.5 ppg after the all-star break. That forced Sacramento and the Spurs to worry about Shaq more heading into the series and focus their defense on him. If you don't think Shaq was the main focus of San Antonio and Sacramento going in then you didn't watch those series. The attention Shaq draws opens things up for Kobe and Kobe took full advantage in those series playing at maybe the highest level of his career.
[QUOTE]the lakers were (out of all the regular season and the playoffs) most impressive in the spurs series - when they swept the team with the best record in the nba, and kobe was the most valuable player of that series with averages of 33.3ppg, 7rpg, and 7apg on 51%FG[/QUOTE]
I explained that in the post above.
[QUOTE]nope, wade was 7th most valuable[/QUOTE]
:roll: Explain who was more valuable.
[QUOTE]yes, lebron was 1 of 2 players more valuable than marion that year[/QUOTE]
OK well in your opinion who was the other guy more valuable? I'm guessing Dirk Nowitzki.
[QUOTE]only time will tell. i'll definately be watching him closely this upcoming season. right now with the team they got i don't feel as if they can be successful enough for amare to contend for the mvp going by how they performed last season after the trade for shaq.[/QUOTE]
I don't know. They went 18-11 after the Shaq trade agains a really tough Western Conference and that was with them having to adjust to Shaq in the lineup.
The Suns will be interesting because they really depend on 2 things and those are how much Nash declines and if Shaq shows up motivated and in shape. If Nash can play at a similar level to what he's been playing and Shaq is around 320-330 pounds then they should be an elite team.
If Shaq shows up at 360 plus pounds and Nash continues to decline a lot then I doubt they even win 50 but we'll see what happens.
[QUOTE]the team isn't really that talented any more with shawn marion gone. nash is still a top 5 point guard, but he struggled the most out of everyone after the shaq trade, and they will need to learn how to play together and maximize everyone's talents if they want to be successful.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but Nash still has great court vision, he can still shoot and he's an excellent passer so he could be a top 5 PG again. Grant Hill and Raja Bell are great role players as well if Hill is healthy. Shaq still put up about 13 and 11 on 61% shooting after the trade so if he's healthy and in shape he can help a lot.
[QUOTE]chris paul should've "won" the mvp this season, considering he deserved it, and as a 22 year old he'll only get better so if he stays injury free he'll definately deserve the award again. he's my pick. duncan finished outside the top 5 for the first time in his career in '08 (besides '05 when he missed 16 games), and i feel as though he will never be in serious consideration again.[/QUOTE]
Paul seems like the favorite now but I expect KG, Kobe and Amare to all be in the race(if the Suns win of course). I wouldn't be surprised if Dwight Howard is a candidate either. He is young and improving and the as it is the Magic won 50 games. If he can take the next step and Orlando improves then expect him to get a lot of votes.
Re: A Rookie 1984 Michael Jordan or a Current Kobe Bryant?
[QUOTE=fiddy]What kind of retarded question is that?
Kobe>MJ.[/QUOTE]
yes current kobe is > rookie MJ.:applause: otherwise kobe is not > jordan
Re: A Rookie 1984 Michael Jordan or a Current Kobe Bryant?
Re: A Rookie 1984 Michael Jordan or a Current Kobe Bryant?
[QUOTE=Shep]when they swept the team with the best record in the nba, and kobe was the most valuable player of that series with averages of 33.3ppg, 7rpg, and 7apg on 51%FG[/quote]
Shaq averaged 28/12/3 blk/54% FG that series while occupying both Duncan and Robinson (and others) so Kobe had free lanes to the basket all series against single coverage. How was Kobe the MVP of that series again? At the very least it's debatable.
Re: A Rookie 1984 Michael Jordan or a Current Kobe Bryant?
[QUOTE]Shaq was averaging about 27 ppg despite Kobe's chucking.[/QUOTE]
shaq averaged a pathetic 24ppg in november, and 26ppg in december, so while shaq played unmotivated ball and shot sub 40% from the free throw line kobe had to step up and do the bulk of the scoring with 28ppg on 46%fg, 41%3p, and 89%ft in november and 32ppg on 49%fg, 32%3p, and 85%ft in december.
[QUOTE]The team also was much better in the second half when Shaq was getting his usual shots. Shaq averaged 30.8 ppg after the all-star break and the team went 25-10 while Kobe averaged 25.3 ppg and missed 14 of those games. The team was 11-3 in the 14 games Bryant missed.[/QUOTE]
shaq was getting the same shots he did pre all-star break. the only thing that changed his ppg post all-star break was his improved free throw percent, which improved by 20%. the 11 wins came against teams who ended the season with an average of 40 wins.
[QUOTE]For an extended time like a regular season or even a playoff run Shaq had to be the leading scorer because the team was built around him and Kobe wasn't yet at the level where you could build a title team around him.[/QUOTE]
pathetic. you mentioned that shaq had to be the leading scorer at all times, i proceeded to destroy this logic with two playoff series being an example, and now you're rambling on about how that isn't long enough. get the **** out.
[QUOTE]Use some common sense. Shaq had been the leading scorer for the regular season, the first round and outscored Kobe by 5.5 ppg after the all-star break. That forced Sacramento and the Spurs to worry about Shaq more heading into the series and focus their defense on him. If you don't think Shaq was the main focus of San Antonio and Sacramento going in then you didn't watch those series. The attention Shaq draws opens things up for Kobe and Kobe took full advantage in those series playing at maybe the highest level of his career.[/QUOTE]
first of all this has got nothing to do with the quote you used. second of all who cares if shaq was the main focus? shaq was the main focus of every team he had faced, and it didn't stop him from dominating. the fact remains that kobe outplayed shaq in the lakers most impressive playoff series in the three peat.
[QUOTE]I explained that in the post above.[/QUOTE]
destroyed.
[QUOTE]Explain who was more valuable.[/QUOTE]
tim duncan - leads the spurs to 63 wins, probably is the best defender in the nba, puts up 18.6ppg, 11rpg, 3.2apg, .9spg, and 2bpg, while only missing 2 games
lebron james - leads the cavs to 50 wins, averages 31.4ppg, 7rpg, 6.6apg, 1.6spg, and .8bpg, while only missing 3 games
shawn marion - leads the suns to 54 wins, is one of the elite defenders in the nba, averages 21.8ppg, 11.8rpg, 1.8apg, 2spg, and 1.7bpg, while only missing 1 game
dirk nowitzki - leads the mavs to 60 wins, averages 26.6ppg, 9rpg, 2.8apg, .7spg, and 1bpg, while only missing 1 game
chauncey billups - leads the pistons to the best record in the nba (64 wins), averages 18.5ppg, 3.1rpg, 8.6apg, .9spg, and .1bpg, while only missing 1 game
ben wallace - as important to detroits chances of winning as billups, defensive player of the year, averages 7.3ppg, 11.3rpg, 1.9apg, 1.8spg, and 2.2bpg, while playing all 82 games
[QUOTE]OK well in your opinion who was the other guy more valuable? I'm guessing Dirk Nowitzki.[/QUOTE]
tim duncan
[QUOTE]Shaq averaged 28/12/3 blk/54% FG that series while occupying both Duncan and Robinson (and others) so Kobe had free lanes to the basket all series against single coverage. How was Kobe the MVP of that series again? At the very least it's debatable.[/QUOTE]
yeh its debatable, you can debate and lose if you want, i don't care. give me 33/7/7 on 51% over shaqs line any day. kobe was guarded by bruce bowen, one of the best and most physical defenders in the game, all series and its alot easier for shaq to dominate against good defenders than it is for a perimiter guy like kobe because shaq has unmatched size so it isn't like they can stop him backing them down, just look at what he did to the defensive player of the year in 2001 in the finals.
Re: A Rookie 1984 Michael Jordan or a Current Kobe Bryant?
[QUOTE=Shep]
yeh its debatable, you can debate and lose if you want, i don't care. give me 33/7/7 on 51% over shaqs line any day. kobe was guarded by bruce bowen, one of the best and most physical defenders in the game[/QUOTE]
Actually, Bowen wasn't on the Spurs that year -- get your facts straight. Kobe was guarded by 92 year old Terry Porter and Antonio Daniels in that series since Derek Anderson, their starting SG, was injured. And again, it is debatable whether 33/7/7/51% > 28/13/3 blk/54%, especially considering that Shaq did his thing against 2-3 defenders while Kobe was single covered -- how do you think Kobe was able to waltz down the lane the whole series? Because Duncan and Robinson -- two HOF defensive big men who were tag-teaming Shaq that series while Kobe was busy trying to break down the fossilized Terry Porter -- refused to come off Shaq to help on Kobe's penetration for fear of a dump-off or offensive rebound by Shaq.
Re: A Rookie 1984 Michael Jordan or a Current Kobe Bryant?
[QUOTE=Shep]shaq averaged a pathetic 24ppg in november, and 26ppg in december, so while shaq played unmotivated ball and shot sub 40% from the free throw line kobe had to step up and do the bulk of the scoring with 28ppg on 46%fg, 41%3p, and 89%ft in november and 32ppg on 49%fg, 32%3p, and 85%ft in december.[/QUOTE]
Shaq would have averaged more if Kobe hadn't been chucking. Shaq even called Kobe out on that. Don't you remember that?
[QUOTE]shaq was getting the same shots he did pre all-star break. the only thing that changed his ppg post all-star break was his improved free throw percent, which improved by 20%.[/QUOTE]
More FTA as well.
[QUOTE] the 11 wins came against teams who ended the season with an average of 40 wins.[/QUOTE]
And? You face plenty of bad teams in a season anyway. A win is a win and 11-3 is a damn good stretch.
[QUOTE]pathetic. you mentioned that shaq had to be the leading scorer at all times, i proceeded to destroy this logic with two playoff series being an example, and now you're rambling on about how that isn't long enough. get the **** out.[/QUOTE]
8 games....game f*cking games? :roll: Yeah that sure is long enough. Kobe was the leading scorer in those series because the teams had to worry so much about Shaq as mentioned. Of course Kobe scoring in those series then made the Sixers a little more hesitant to focus so much on Shaq(hence Shaq's 34 ppg in the Finals).
[QUOTE]first of all this has got nothing to do with the quote you used. second of all who cares if shaq was the main focus? shaq was the main focus of every team he had faced, and it didn't stop him from dominating. the fact remains that kobe outplayed shaq in the lakers most impressive playoff series in the three peat.[/QUOTE]
Shaq was easily as valuable. He was matched up with both Duncan and Robinson who were both elite defenders. Shaq destroyed both of them, Kobe wasn't matched up with anyone near that level. Who was he matched up with an old washed up Terry Porter?
[QUOTE]tim duncan - leads the spurs to 63 wins, probably is the best defender in the nba, puts up 18.6ppg, 11rpg, 3.2apg, .9spg, and 2bpg, while only missing 2 games[/QUOTE]
Yeah but he had Tony Parker who put up 18.9 ppg, 5.8 apg on 54.8 FG%, Ginobili who averaged 15.1 ppg and 3.6 apg, Finley averaged double digits off the bench and Bowen was probably the best perimeter defender.
Duncan was robbed of DPOY not MVP.
[QUOTE]lebron james - leads the cavs to 50 wins, averages 31.4ppg, 7rpg, 6.6apg, 1.6spg, and .8bpg, while only missing 3 games[/QUOTE]
Fair enough choice.
[QUOTE]shawn marion - leads the suns to 54 wins, [B]is one of the elite defenders in the nba[/B], averages 21.8ppg, 11.8rpg, 1.8apg, 2spg, and 1.7bpg, while only missing 1 game[/QUOTE]
No he wasn't.
[QUOTE]dirk nowitzki - leads the mavs to 60 wins, averages 26.6ppg, 9rpg, 2.8apg, .7spg, and 1bpg, while only missing 1 game[/QUOTE]
Dirk has a good case, I won't argue that.
[QUOTE]chauncey billups - leads the pistons to the best record in the nba (64 wins), averages 18.5ppg, 3.1rpg, 8.6apg, .9spg, and .1bpg, while only missing 1 game[/QUOTE]
Chauncey had a great case too.
[QUOTE]ben wallace - as important to detroits chances of winning as billups, defensive player of the year, averages 7.3ppg, 11.3rpg, 1.9apg, 1.8spg, and 2.2bpg, while playing all 82 games[/QUOTE]
:roll: Did you seriously just say that 2006 Ben Wallace was more valuable than 2006 Dwyane Wade?
The Pistons also had Prince, Wallace and McDyess. They were a far deeper team than Miami. Still had Shaq who had a very good season but Shaq missed 23 games and Wade didn't have a supporting cast like Billups or Wallace did.
[QUOTE]tim duncan [/QUOTE]
Duncan didn't even lead his own team in scoring, he shot 48.4% which is poor for his position and he had a better supporting cast than Wade. I know he played injured but still he wasn't better than Wade that year.
[QUOTE]kobe was guarded by bruce bowen, one of the best and most physical defenders in the game, all series[/QUOTE]
:roll: Bowen was with Miami in 2001, he didn't join the Spurs until the following season.
[QUOTE] and its alot easier for shaq to dominate against good defenders than it is for a perimiter guy like kobe because shaq has unmatched size so it isn't like they can stop him backing them down, just look at what he did to the defensive player of the year in 2001 in the finals.[/QUOTE]
Who cares what looks more impressive to you? What matters is what's more effective.
Re: A Rookie 1984 Michael Jordan or a Current Kobe Bryant?
i remember seeing this thread a couple months ago, but i ignored it and i have not clicked on it at all until now.
but i have still not read one single post and i refuse to get into the same old bullsht that never ends.
anyway, i have a feeling this thread might still be on the first page a couple months from now.
Re: A Rookie 1984 Michael Jordan or a Current Kobe Bryant?
[QUOTE]Shaq would have averaged more if Kobe hadn't been chucking. Shaq even called Kobe out on that.[/QUOTE]
how would shaq have averaged more? i've already outlined the fact that he got the same shots he did when he was averaging 30ppg and the only reason shaq didn't average more points is because of his awful free throw percent.. shaq only called kobe out because he starting to emerge as the lakers best player and was jealous. if shaq showed up at the start of the season motivated they wouldn't have had a problem
[QUOTE]More FTA as well.[/QUOTE]
yes. a whole 1 more fta per game too :rolleyes:
[QUOTE]And? You face plenty of bad teams in a season anyway. A win is a win and 11-3 is a damn good stretch.[/QUOTE]
yes, you face plenty of bad teams during the season - which is why a kobe less lakers would have no hope of replicating that record in the playoffs
[QUOTE]8 games....game f*cking games?[/QUOTE]
the most important 8 games in the lakers season? :roll: the 8 games when the lakers were at their most dominant? :roll:
[QUOTE]Yeah that sure is long enough.[/QUOTE]
shut the **** up with your "no that isn't long enough" bull****. you said shaq needed to be the leading scorer. 2 whole playoff series say otherwise.
[QUOTE]Kobe was the leading scorer in those series because the teams had to worry so much about Shaq as mentioned. Of course Kobe scoring in those series then made the Sixers a little more hesitant to focus so much on Shaq(hence Shaq's 34 ppg in the Finals). [/QUOTE]
they focused on shaq, and they minimized his impact. kobe on the other hand dominated, and was the best player in atleast 1 of the 2 series. if a team focused on a dude who averaged 40 points and 20 rebounds during the season and he averages 5 points during a playoff series would you still call him the mvp of the series? didn't think so.
[QUOTE]Shaq was easily as valuable. He was matched up with both Duncan and Robinson who were both elite defenders. Shaq destroyed both of them[/QUOTE]
shaq averaged 27ppg - down from his season average of 29ppg. how you came to the conclusion that he destroyed them is anyone's guess.
[QUOTE]Kobe wasn't matched up with anyone near that level. Who was he matched up with an old washed up Terry Porter?[/QUOTE]
who cares who was matched up on kobe? michael jordan was matched up with jeff hornacek in the '97 and '98 finals, does this mean whatever he did meant nothing?
[QUOTE]Yeah but he had Tony Parker who put up 18.9 ppg, 5.8 apg on 54.8 FG%, Ginobili who averaged 15.1 ppg and 3.6 apg, Finley averaged double digits off the bench and Bowen was probably the best perimeter defender.[/QUOTE]
wade had shaquille o'neal - better than any of duncan's teammates. finley was trash, the spurs only had three servicable players - duncan, parker, ginobili. meanwhile the heat go 6 deep, wade misses 7 games, and duncan is easily the better defender.
[QUOTE]Duncan was robbed of DPOY not MVP.[/QUOTE]
both
[QUOTE]No he wasn't.[/QUOTE]
yes he was
[QUOTE]Did you seriously just say that 2006 Ben Wallace was more valuable than 2006 Dwyane Wade?[/QUOTE]
i'm pretty sure i just said ben wallace was more valuable than dwyane wade in 2006
[QUOTE]The Pistons also had Prince, Wallace and McDyess. They were a far deeper team than Miami. Still had Shaq who had a very good season but Shaq missed 23 games and Wade didn't have a supporting cast like Billups or Wallace did.[/QUOTE]
wallace and billups took votes away from each other, rasheed wallace was also top 10 because they all were leading contributers to the best record in the nba. the pistons didn't have 1 superstar, instead they had 3 stars and they finished fifth, sixth, and tenth in the most valuable player standings.
[QUOTE]Bowen was with Miami in 2001, he didn't join the Spurs until the following season.[/QUOTE]
lucky for him :roll:
[QUOTE]Who cares what looks more impressive to you? What matters is what's more effective.[/QUOTE]
its common sense. perimiter domination is much harder than inside domination. who cares what looks more impressive to me? the only person that matters in this conversation - me.
[QUOTE]Actually, Bowen wasn't on the Spurs that year -- get your facts straight. Kobe was guarded by 92 year old Terry Porter and Antonio Daniels in that series since Derek Anderson, their starting SG, was injured.[/QUOTE]
DA played the last two games - get your facts straight. and is it kobe's fault he didn't have the worlds best defender on him? you can't discredit him for that. the fact was that san antonio were a great defensive team, and kobe got his 33/7/7 against them.
[QUOTE]And again, it is debatable whether 33/7/7/51% > 28/13/3 blk/54%[/QUOTE]
where did you get this **** about shaq averaging 28/13/3? he averaged 27/13/1 - get your facts straight.
[QUOTE]especially considering that Shaq did his thing against 2-3 defenders while Kobe was single covered -- how do you think Kobe was able to waltz down the lane the whole series? Because Duncan and Robinson -- two HOF defensive big men who were tag-teaming Shaq that series while Kobe was busy trying to break down the fossilized Terry Porter -- refused to come off Shaq to help on Kobe's penetration for fear of a dump-off or offensive rebound by Shaq.[/QUOTE]
i see words, but all i hear is this: :cry: . there's a reason why in this series shaq himself said "kobe is the best player in the world" - something i don't agree with, but for this series alone kobe was clearly the best player.
Re: A Rookie 1984 Michael Jordan or a Current Kobe Bryant?
[QUOTE=Shep]how would shaq have averaged more? i've already outlined the fact that he got the same shots he did when he was averaging 30ppg and the only reason shaq didn't average more points is because of his awful free throw percent.. shaq only called kobe out because he starting to emerge as the lakers best player and was jealous. if shaq showed up at the start of the season motivated they wouldn't have had a problem[/QUOTE]
Look at this. The first 4 games of the season O'Neal averaged 34 ppg on 22.8 FGA. For the rest of November(11 games) he averaged 17 shots. In December he still got just 19.4 shots, in January he still got just 19.2 shots but averaged 31 ppg. He was started to dominate just prior to the all-star break.
For a guy who won the Finals MVP, the scoring title, regular season MVP and was the leading scorer in the playoffs that's not a lot of shots per game. Especially considering that he got 21 shots the previous season and seemed to dominate whenever he was given shots.
He started off the season hot but Kobe started chucking and he didn't get many shots for the rest of November.
[QUOTE]yes, you face plenty of bad teams during the season - which is why a kobe less lakers would have no hope of replicating that record in the playoffs[/QUOTE]
You said those teams won an average of 40 games? :oldlol: Well at the end of the season every team has faced teams with an average of 42 wins. :roll:
[QUOTE]the most important 8 games in the lakers season? :roll: the 8 games when the lakers were at their most dominant? :roll: [/QUOTE]
Shaq averaged 43.5 ppg on over 60% shooting in the first 2 games foring the Kings and Spurs to give even more attention to stopping Shaq. After getting 29 FGA those first 2 games he only got 19 the next 6 games and that was because he was almost always doubled and tripled.
[QUOTE]shut the **** up with your "no that isn't long enough" bull****. you said shaq needed to be the leading scorer. 2 whole playoff series say otherwise.[/QUOTE]
Here's an example of what I'm talking about.
The first 2 games of the Kings series Shaq destroyed them with back to back 40 point games on an average of 29 shots per game.
The next 2 games he averaged 14.5 FGA because the Kings tried everything to stop him. That opened things up for Kobe.
[QUOTE]they focused on shaq, and they minimized his impact.[/QUOTE]
They spend all of that energy and still allow 27 and 13 and you call that minimizing? :oldlol:
[QUOTE]kobe on the other hand dominated, and was the best player in atleast 1 of the 2 series. if a team focused on a dude who averaged 40 points and 20 rebounds during the season and he averages 5 points during a playoff series would you still call him the mvp of the series? didn't think so[/QUOTE].
Shaq didn't drop from 40 and 20 to 5 points. He was at 29 and 13 during the regular season and averaged 27 and 13 in that series.
He also averaged 33.3 ppg vs the Kings with 17.3 rpg and shot 59.8%. All of that is well up from his season averages.
I'd say they were equally valuable in the Spurs series but in the Kings series Shaq was easily MVP.
[QUOTE]shaq averaged 27ppg - down from his season average of 29ppg. how you came to the conclusion that he destroyed them is anyone's guess.[/QUOTE]
He averaged 27 but also 13 rpg which matched his season and average and that was while being guarded by two of the best big men defenders in the league. So yes getting around his season average while being doubled by both those guys is destroying them.
[QUOTE]who cares who was matched up on kobe? michael jordan was matched up with jeff hornacek in the '97 and '98 finals, does this mean whatever he did meant nothing?[/QUOTE]
No but when you have Shaq matched up with 2 of the leagues best defenders it obviously makes it more impressive that he was able to play well. We can both agree that Duncan and Robinson are/were great defenders right?
[QUOTE]wade had shaquille o'neal - better than any of duncan's teammates.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but Shaq missed 23 games.
[QUOTE] finley was trash[/QUOTE]
10 ppg and great shooting off the bench is trash? :confusedshrug:
[QUOTE], the spurs only had three servicable players - duncan, parker, ginobili. [/QUOTE]
What about Bruce Bowen who you just said was one of the best defenders as well as the fact that he's a good 3 point shooter from the corner.
[QUOTE]meanwhile the heat go 6 deep, wade misses 7 games, and duncan is easily the better defender.[/QUOTE]
The heat had Wade and Shaq but Payton was garbage at that point, Mourning missed 17 games, Posey missed 15 games, their 3rd leading scorer Jason Williams missed 23 games.
[QUOTE]both[/QUOTE]
Duncan was too far below his standards on offense that year. 48% for a low post player is poor and he didn't make up for it from the line(63%). He also scored below 19 ppg.
Duncan's two MVP's in 2002 and 2003 were deserved and you could make a case for him deserving MVP in 1999 as well but that's it.
[QUOTE]i'm pretty sure i just said ben wallace was more valuable than dwyane wade in 2006[/QUOTE]
:roll: Thanks for that quote, it's pretty damn funny.
[QUOTE]wallace and billups took votes away from each other, rasheed wallace was also top 10 because they all were leading contributers to the best record in the nba. the pistons didn't have 1 superstar, instead they had 3 stars and they finished fifth, sixth, and tenth in the most valuable player standings.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough but Billups was pretty close to having a superstar type impact with his near 19 and 9 average as well as clutch shots, defense and perimeter shooting.
[QUOTE]its common sense. perimiter domination is much harder than inside domination. who cares what looks more impressive to me? the only person that matters in this conversation - me.[/QUOTE]
It matters what's more effective, not more impressive.