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[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14958446]
[B]Payton was the 1st option on his squads lol.
[/B]
[/quote]
Negative.
Kemp led the Sonics in scoring for the regular season and playoffs in 93', 94', 96', and also at their pinnacle in the Finals - Phil Jackson comments during the 96' championship video that Kemp was the only threat - video [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbpNLjbZHGI&t=31m05s]here[/url]... Kemp dominated so much that he was a rare candidate for FMVP on the losing side... And the 1 year that the Sonics had 3 All-NBA selections was 95', and Kemp led them in scoring in the playoffs (24.8)..
Edit: Schrempf was leading scorer in the 94' Playoffs, while also being 2nd-leading scorer in the 95' Playoffs - he was a 39% three-point shooter that would've been be a Banchero-like player back then if they featured versatile bigs the way they do today.
[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14958446]
[B]So yeah let's continue to compare Scottie to 1st options that's where he belongs anyway.
[/B]
[/quote]
The stats prove that Payton wasn't the Sonics' 1st option or a go-to player, just like Magic wasn't on the Lakers and it was Kareem that led the team in scoring until 87'.. This is similar to Kemp leading the Sonics in scoring and being their go-player for nearly every regular season and playoffs.
So Payton was the set-up guy and Kemp was the go-to player, or the sharp-shooting Schrempf, who destroyed Pippen in the 96' Finals.. The majority of opposing SF's in Pippen's playoff career outscored him, and he only outscored opposing guards that were underperforming against MJ (Starks, Dumars, Hornacek, Magic, Steve Smith, etc, etc, etc).. It's quite a trend.. Meanwhile, his own matchup destroyed him like Schrempf, X-Man, Nance, Aguirre, Newman, Dominique, Juwan Howard, Larry Johnson, Tracy Murray, Glen Rice, and more..
[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14958446]
[B]Pippen belongs as a 1st option
[/B]
[/quote]
Despite Pippen not being on the scouting report and MJ facing all the defensive attention, Pippen still had worst-ever efficiency, including the 93' and 96-98' Playoffs!!
Pippen's historically-bad efficiency proves that he couldn't handle a 2nd option load and was only a 2nd option alongside the goat scorer - Jordan made up for Pippen's low production with his own goat scoring, and he overcame Pippen's bricklaying and lane-clogging with all-time jumpshooting ability to shoot over packed paints.
[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14958446]
And yeah definitely a [B]franchise guy who led a team to 55 wins[/B]
[/quote]
Franchise players are asked to build a team from scratch, while Pippen was handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever and quickly destroyed it... Everyone knew that they weren't a real 55-win team and no one was surprised when the bubble burst quickly... The only question is whether it's possible to destroy a 3-peat dynasty faster than Pippen did, since he cratered the goat dynasty to borderline .500 in less than 18 months before MJ returned in 95'.
Accordingly, the 94' and 95' seasons confirmed that if everyone on a team is a worse scorer than Pippen, then the team will stink and even a 3-peat dynasty will fall out of contention QUICKLY as we saw in 95'.. Pippen was just a dunker and nothing outside the triangle as we saw in Houston in 99', or under Doug Collins in 89'.. The stats and historical record tracks everything I'm saying, so it isn't opinion - it's just informing you of the historical record.
[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14958446]
Sidekicks don't finish 3rd in Mvp voting sir.
[/quote]
Tons of guys did - too many to name, but I'll name a few so you get the picture.... :facepalm:
Payton was 3rd in 98... Penny was 3rd in 96'... Magic was 2nd in 91' and he was Kareem's sidekick (Kareem led Lakers in scoring for RS & PO until 87'), or even Worthy's.
McHale was 4th in 87', and Tim Hardaway was 4th in 97', or Alonzo was 2nd and 3rd in 98' and 99'.. Paul George and Blake Griffin were 3rd...
And none of these guys were fake candidates that got handed a goat dynasty, goat chemistry, and a massive surprise factor on their side.. The bubble inevitably burst and the real Bulls were borderline .500 in 95' - they were going nowhere due to low roster talent and no scoring.. Accordingly, Pippen famously pointed to the Jumpman symbol on his shoes and hoped MJ could lift their .500 team to 3-peat again... He did....... for the 2nd time.
[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14958446]
[B]Also knew Stockton would be the 1st name out of your mouth because he's the only one.[/B]
[/quote]
I mentioned a bunch of 2-way players that were the same caliber as Pippen, such as Payton, Stockton, or Nance..
But you never addressed the fact that Jokic, Curry, Luka, Barkley and many more are far superior players than Pippen without being good defenders, so individual defense isn't a good argument when comparing 2 players... Jordan had far less defensive help than his peers by virtue of zero rim protection in a big man league, and lower defensive ranking than every ECF and Finals opponent during the 1st three-peat, except the Suns - the Suns were 9th on defense and the Bulls' 7th...
[I]So who cares about Pippen's defense when it didn't give the Bulls a better defense than any ECF or Finals opponent?[/I].. Any good big man would provide the Bulls more help on both sides of the ball, so Pippen's defense was quite replaceable and therefore cannot be considered a big factor when comparing him to another player.
[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14958446]
[B]Toni was 6th man of the year, didnt know that was a bum award too. Rodman and Grant were both vital to Chicago's title runs.
[/B]
[/QUOTE]
Exactly - Toni was a 6MOY and bench player just like JR Smith, so Jordan won with a bench player as the starter in 98' over fossil Rodman, who averaged 3/8 in the previous playoffs in 97'.
Old Rodman was worse than 2010 Shaq, but the difference is that Lebron wasn't good enough to drag old Shaq to titles like MJ did with old Rodman.. Incidentally, 2010 Shaq would've been the best center that jordan ever had BY FAR, and he would've been 2nd option over Pippen on many nights.
Meanwhile, Horace was worse than Boozer, Jamison, Bosh, Love, Zydrunas, or Knecht, and compares to Haslem, Birdman, Tristan, or Drew Gooden.
[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14958446]
[B]Without these PF's[/B], there isn't a chip to speak of.
[/quote]
Every team needs a power forward because teams aren't allowed to play 4 on 5.
But guys like Horace, Kukoc and old Rodman would've been replaced by anyone like Horry, PJ Brown, Tyrone Hill, Oakley - tons of guys - Buck Williams or Thorpe would be massive upgrades over these guys for example..... Horace, Kukoc and old Rodman simply were low-producing role players that every team has.
[QUOTE=3ba11;14958693]Negative.
Kemp led the Sonics in scoring for the regular season and playoffs in 93', 94', 96', and also at their pinnacle in the Finals - Phil Jackson comments during the 96' championship video that Kemp was the only threat - video [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbpNLjbZHGI&t=31m05s]here[/url]... Kemp dominated so much that he was a rare candidate for FMVP on the losing side... And the 1 year that the Sonics had 3 All-NBA selections was 95', and Kemp led them in scoring in the playoffs (24.8)..
Edit: Schrempf was leading scorer in the 94' Playoffs, while also being 2nd-leading scorer in the 95' Playoffs - he was a 39% three-point shooter that would've been be a Banchero-like player back then if they featured versatile bigs the way they do today.
The stats prove that Payton wasn't the Sonics' 1st option or a go-to player, just like Magic wasn't on the Lakers and it was Kareem that led the team in scoring until 87'.. This is similar to Kemp leading the Sonics in scoring and being their go-player for nearly every regular season and playoffs.
So Payton was the set-up guy and Kemp was the go-to player, or the sharp-shooting Schrempf, who destroyed Pippen in the 96' Finals.. The majority of opposing SF's in Pippen's playoff career outscored him, and he only outscored opposing guards that were underperforming against MJ (Starks, Dumars, Hornacek, Magic, Steve Smith, etc, etc, etc).. It's quite a trend.. Meanwhile, his own matchup destroyed him like Schrempf, X-Man, Nance, Aguirre, Newman, Juwan Howard, Larry Johnson, Tracy Murray, Glen Rice, and more..
Despite Pippen not being on the scouting report and MJ facing all the defensive attention, Pippen still had worst-ever efficiency, including the 93' and 96-98' Playoffs!!
Pippen's historically-bad efficiency proves that he couldn't handle a 2nd option load and was only a 2nd option alongside the goat scorer - Jordan made up for Pippen's low production with his own goat scoring, and he overcame Pippen's bricklaying and lane-clogging with all-time jumpshooting ability to shoot over packed paints.
Franchise players are asked to build a team from scratch, while Pippen was handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever and quickly destroyed it... Everyone knew that they weren't a real 55-win team and no one was surprised when the bubble burst quickly... The only question is whether it's possible to destroy a 3-peat dynasty faster than Pippen did, since he cratered the goat dynasty to borderline .500 in less than 18 months before MJ returned in 95'.
Accordingly, the 94' and 95' seasons confirmed that if everyone on a team is a worse scorer than Pippen, then the team will stink and even a 3-peat dynasty will fall out of contention QUICKLY as we saw in 95'.. Pippen was just a dunker and nothing outside the triangle as we saw in Houston in 99', or under Doug Collins in 89'.. The stats and historical record tracks everything I'm saying, so it isn't opinion - it's just informing you of the historical record.
Tons of guys did - too many to name, but I'll name a few so you get the picture.... :facepalm:
Payton was 3rd in 98... Penny was 3rd in 96'... Magic was 2nd in 91' and he was Kareem's sidekick (Kareem led Lakers in scoring for RS & PO until 87'), or even Worthy's.
McHale was 4th in 87', and Tim Hardaway was 4th in 97', or Alonzo was 2nd and 3rd in 98' and 99'.. Paul George and Blake Griffin were 3rd...
And none of these guys were fake candidates that got handed a goat dynasty, goat chemistry, and a massive surprise factor on their side.. The bubble inevitably burst and the real Bulls were borderline .500 in 95' - they were going nowhere due to low roster talent and no scoring.. Accordingly, Pippen famously pointed to the Jumpman symbol on his shoes and hoped MJ could lift their .500 team to 3-peat again... He did....... for the 2nd time.
I mentioned a bunch of 2-way players that were the same caliber as Pippen, such as Payton, Stockton, or Nance..
But you never addressed the fact that Jokic, Curry, Luka, Barkley and many more are far superior players than Pippen without being good defenders, so individual defense isn't a good argument when comparing 2 players... Jordan had far less defensive help than his peers by virtue of zero rim protection in a big man league, and lower defensive ranking than every ECF and Finals opponent during the 1st three-peat, except the Suns - the Suns were 9th on defense and the Bulls' 7th...
[I]So who cares about Pippen's defense when it didn't give the Bulls a better defense than any ECF or Finals opponent?[/I].. Any good big man would provide the Bulls more help on both sides of the ball, so Pippen's defense was quite replaceable and therefore cannot be considered a big factor when comparing him to another player.
Exactly - Toni was a 6MOY and bench player just like JR Smith, so Jordan won with a bench player as the starter in 98' over fossil Rodman, who averaged 3/8 in the previous playoffs in 97'.
Old Rodman was worse than 2010 Shaq, but the difference is that Lebron wasn't good enough to drag old Shaq to titles like MJ did with old Rodman.. Incidentally, 2010 Shaq would've been the best center that jordan ever had BY FAR, and he would've been 2nd option over Pippen on many nights.
Meanwhile, Horace was worse than Boozer, Jamison, Bosh, Love, Zydrunas, or Knecht, and compares to Haslem, Birdman, Tristan, or Drew Gooden.
Every team needs a power forward because teams aren't allowed to play 4 on 5.
But guys like Horace, Kukoc and old Rodman would've been replaced by anyone like Horry, PJ Brown, Tyrone Hill, Oakley - tons of guys - Buck Williams or Thorpe would be massive upgrades over these guys for example..... Horace, Kukoc and old Rodman simply were low-producing role players that every team has.[/QUOTE]
Another raucous weekend on tap for 3ball. Make sure to get to your expert jump shooting and preseason favorites talking points at some point in this thread, we could use a Klay vs Hornacek stats comparison as well.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14958697]Another raucous weekend on tap for 3ball. Make sure to get to your expert jump shooting and preseason favorites talking points at some point in this thread, we could use a Klay vs Hornacek stats comparison as well.[/QUOTE]
I'm simply responding directly to all of sdot's points... .:confusedshrug:
And then haters pile on.... standard procedure... :whatever:
A good team offense requires the best players to be good offensive players, but a good team defense doesn't require the best players to be good defenders.. There are many ways to skin a cat to get a good team defense, which is why Bird and Curry had #1 defenses and are considered much better than Pippen despite being weak defenders.. This is also why individual defense isn't that important when comparing 2 great players...
And despite Pippen's presence, Jordan still had less defensive help than his peers by virtue of zero rim protection in a big man league, and lower defensive ranking than every ECF and Finals opponent during the 1st three-peat (except the Suns - the Suns were 9th on defense and the Bulls' 7th).. In addition to the superior defenses of ECF and Finals opponents, the 92' Knicks took the Bulls 7 games in the 2nd Round and they also had a better defense (#2 in the league).
Ultimately, Kobe's 5 chips in the triangle with zero playmaking help proved that Pippen's measly 5-6 assists weren't needed - the triangle moves the ball and generates assists on it's own, and MJ averaged more assists than Pippen or Kobe anyway.. The reality is that Pippen was mostly a dunker that wasn't even a great fit in the triangle by virtue of worst-ever efficiency, bricklaying and lane-clogging (see chart in previous posts above).
The only thing the triangle requires is the goat shooting guard and goat scorer (11 chips with MJ or Kobe) - it has zero rings without a perimeter player providing this caliber of both iso scoring and assisted scoring, thereby promoting the best ball movement, fits and offensive diversity.. It turns out that dumping the ball into Shaq doesn't promote great ball movement like having a perimeter player that can get 30 on quick jumpers and non-ball-dominant iso's - this goat scoring caliber is required for the triangle to win titles instead of being the most hated, restrictive, and unworkable offense ever.
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