"Pippen was the best player in the world in 93, 94, 95" - Dennis Rodman

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14338714]Let's do it. I'm down to chop it up with guys like yourself, ImKobe, dankok, mehya, etc. I don't know how to PM people on this platform though. lol.

As for your question, then plenty of guys [I]could[/I] do it, but none of the elite guys (Jordan, GP, Kidd, Hill, Penny) would since it was largely a big man's game.

I'm not relegating Shaq's play to just one series. You're dismissing Shaq's ability on the basis of him being young. That's like saying we should disregard young Bird, Magic, LeBron, or MJ, because they were in their 3rd season of play, only. It doesn't work that way. Many players can hit the ground running.

We saw what Tim Duncan did in his first and second seasons. Was 1999 Duncan < any version of Pippen? C'mon.

I'm not denying that a lot of guys felt that way about Pippen. The praise is warranted, but it doesn't mean the evaluation is accurate, especially when collectively, he wasn't top 2. The point is that he was top 8. You say top 5. I disagree.

I haven't found a definitive reason as to why 1995 Pippen > 1995 Ewing, but please do share.[/QUOTE]

I cant find where to send a personal message.

None of the guys you mentioned could anchor a defense. And be effective. Pippen was the defensive support from the wing position. Guys like Jordan and Payton were great man defenders, but not defensive anchors.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14338707]"You lose" lol. How mature. Clearly you didn't pay attention to the asterisk that I put next to my comment. I'm obviously aware that on paper, Robinson won the scoring title.

Shaq had him narrowly beaten and was set to win the scoring title. The Spurs had already clinched the playoffs and their seed. They played the Clippers who were a horrible team and Robinson proceeded to play 44 min in a blowout, scoring 71. It was a stat padding event that even Westbrook can't touch.

So yea, without context, Shaq had 1 scoring title out of the 3 years. The reality is that he had 2/3 if not for Robinson's stat padding.[/QUOTE]

So he had one :lol

Idiot

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[B][SIZE=5]TLDR:[/B] Excluding 1994 when Pippen was a 1st option, Pippen was outscored by the opponent's 2nd leading scorer in 12 of 34 series as a Bull (35%), and was matched with far better efficiency in 2 other critical series (98' ECF, 95' ECSF) - so that's 14 of 34 series as a Bull (41%) where his scoring was inferior to the opposing 2nd option.

During title runs, Pippen was outscored 25% of the time by opposing 2nd options, which matches the lower tier of winning sidekicks that never won FMVP or achieved elite 1st option stats (true 2nd options), such as Klay, Pau, Pippen, Rip Hamilton, and Jason Terry.. This caliber is far below the top tier of winning sidekicks that usually outscore opposing 1st options, achieve elite 1st options stats or win FMVP (Curry, Kobe, Kareem, Wade, Worthy, AD, etc).

For Pippen's career, he was outscored by opposing 2nd options in 19 of 41 series that he wasn't 1st option (nearly 50%) - so Pippen wasn't a legit 2nd option because he was outscored by opposing 2nd options half the time and has low peak scoring ability/PPG, while his [url=https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg]worst-ever efficiency[/url] confirms that he couldn't handle the volume/load.. Ultimately, his low PPG among winning sidekicks and worst-ever efficiency make him the worst-scoring sidekick that ever won.

The most common rings are those won with elite 1st options playing sidekick like Kobe, Curry or Kareem ("1b" sidekicks that have achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP in their career), while it's much less common to win rings with true 2nd options that never achieved FMVP or 25 ppg (Klay, Pippen, Pau, Rip Hamilton, Jason Terry, Horry) - MJ has 6 rings with these true 2nd options, which is why he's goat.[/SIZE]


[INDENT][I]* From 1999-2003, Pippen was outscored by the opponent's 2nd leading scorer in 7 of 7 series - these numbers will be added to Pippen's Bull career, shown below:[/I]


1988 1st Round

Pippen'....... 10.6 ppg... 47.1 fg... 49.4 ts
L Nance...... 16.8 ppg... 53.1 fg... 58.4 ts


1988 2nd Round

Pippen......... 9.4 ppg... 45.8 fg... 48.5 ts
Dantley...... 18.6 ppg... 50.0 fg... 58.9 ts


1989 1st Round

Pippen....... 15.0 ppg... 39.7 fg... 51.0 ts
L Nance..... 19.4 ppg... 55.1 fg... 58.9 ts


1989 2nd Round

Pippen....... 14.8 ppg... 58.1 fg... 64.5 ts
Newman.... 15.5 ppg... 45.8 fg... 56.0 ts


1989 ECF

Pippen......... 9.4 ppg... 40.4 fg... 45.3 ts
Johnson..... 13.7 ppg... 53.3 fg... 59.6 ts


1990 1st Round

Pippen....... 22.5 ppg... 57.1 fg... 63.4 ts
Pierce........ 22.3 ppg... 46.7 fg... 60.4 ts


1990 2nd Round

Pippen........ 20.8 ppg... 53.3 fg... 58.1 ts
Hawkins...... 19.8 ppg... 47.7 fg... 62.6 ts


1990 ECF

Pippen....... 16.6 ppg... 42.6 fg... 52.0 ts
Isiah'......... 17.6 ppg... 39.0 fg... 51.0 ts


1991 1st Round

Pippen....... 19.7 ppg... 50.0 fg... 55.2 ts
Ewing........ 16.7 ppg... 40.0 fg... 47.3 ts


1991 2nd Round

Pippen........ 23.4 ppg... 57.1 fg... 60.9 ts
Hawkins...... 19.8 ppg... 43.1 fg... 64.4 ts


1991 ECF

Pippen......... 22.5 ppg... 47.5 fg... 56.3 ts
Aguirre........ 16.8 ppg... 45.3 fg... 55.4 ts


1991 Finals

Pippen'...... 20.6 ppg... 45.3 fg... 52.7 ts
Magic........ 18.3 ppg... 43.1 fg... 61.2 ts


1992 1st Round

Pippen....... 24.0 ppg... 55.3 fg... 63.0 ts
Ewing........ 19.0 ppg... 37.5 fg... 42.5 ts


1992 2nd Round

Pippen'....... 16.0 ppg... 40.4 fg... 49.3 ts
X-Man........ 18.6 ppg... 49.6 fg... 52.7 ts


1992 ECF

Pippen....... 19.8 ppg... 47.3 fg... 53.6 ts
Nance........ 17.8 ppg... 46.7 fg... 51.9 ts


1992 Finals

Pippen'....... 20.8 ppg... 48.4 fg... 56.0 ts
Porter......... 16.2 ppg... 47.1 fg... 57.1 ts


1993 1st Round

Pippen...... 15.3 ppg... 42.2 fg... 45.7 ts
Willis........ 16.7 ppg... 46.7 fg... 48.9 ts


1993 2nd Round

Pippen......... 18.3 ppg... 47.5 fg... 51.0 ts
Daughtery.... 16.0 ppg... 56.1 fg... 56.1 ts


1993 ECF

Pippen'...... 22.5 ppg... 51.0 fg... 57.3 ts
Starks....... 15.2 ppg... 45.3 fg... 54.6 ts


1993 Finals

Pippen...... 21.2 ppg... 43.9 fg... 45.9 ts
Majerle..... 17.2 ppg... 44.3 fg... 58.7 ts


1994 1st Round

Pippen...... 25.3 ppg... 49.3 fg... 53.7 ts
Mills......... 17.0 ppg... 50.0 fg... 59.5 ts


1994 2nd Round

Pippen...... 21.7 ppg... 40.5 fg... 51.3 ts
Ewing....... 22.9 ppg... 53.0 fg... 58.1 ts


1995 1st Round

Pippen........ 16.0 ppg... 51.2 fg... 60.2 ts
Johnson...... 20.8 ppg... 47.7 fg... 54.6 ts


1995 2nd Round

Pippen'...... 19.0 ppg... 40.9 fg... 52.2 ts
Penny........ 18.5 ppg... 44.0 fg... 54.7 ts


1996 1st Round

Pippen..,,..... 19.7 ppg... 55.6 fg... 64.0 ts
Hardaway'.... 17.7 ppg... 46.5 fg... 57.5 ts


1996 2nd Round

Pippen..,,,,,.... 15.6 ppg... 33.0 fg... 41.6 ts
Oakley........... 13.4 ppg... 50.0 fg... 57.7 ts


1996 ECF

Pippen'...... 18.5 ppg... 45.3 fg... 50.8 ts
Penny........ 25.5 ppg... 46.9 fg... 55.2 ts


1996 Finals

Pippen...... 15.7 ppg... 34.0 fg... 42.9 ts
Payton...... 18.0 ppg... 44.4 fg... 53.2 ts


1997 1st Round

Pippen....... 16.7 ppg... 38.9 fg... 49.8 ts
Howard...... 18.7 ppg... 45.5 fg... 53.9 ts


1997 2nd Round

Pippen...... 22.2 ppg... 42.9 fg... 52.4 ts
Smith....... 17.6 ppg... 31.9 fg... 49.1 ts


1997 ECF

Pippen......... 16.8 ppg... 41.7 fg... 52.6 ts
Mourning..... 15.6 ppg... 46.8 fg... 56.2 ts


1997 Finals

Pippen....... 20.0 ppg... 42.1 fg... 54.1 ts
Stockton.... 15.0 ppg... 50.0 fg... 61.3 ts


1998 1st Round

Pippen....... 18.0 ppg... 43.6 fg... 53.1 ts
Kitttles...... 16.3 ppg... 42.5 fg... 54.6 ts


1998 2nd Round

Pippen....... 17.8 ppg... 44.3 fg... 53.5 ts
Mason........ 12.6 ppg... 51.0 fg... 55.3 ts


1998 ECF

Pippen....... 16.6 ppg... 39.2 fg... 46.3 ts
Smits........ 16.3 ppg... 55.4 fg... 62.8 ts


1998 Finals

Pippen.......... 15.7 ppg... 41.0 fg... 50.2 ts
Hornacek...... 10.7 ppg... 41.1 fg... 50.1 ts


* [I]From 1999-2003, Pippen was outscored by the opponent's 2nd leading scorer in 7 of 7 series - these numbers will be added to Pippen's Bull career, shown above[/I][/INDENT]

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People love romanticizing 30 years after the fact - here's the facts:


[INDENT][B]1993[/B] - Pippen didn't get any DPOY votes (Jordan was 2nd) and he had the worst impact stats in the playoffs for a winning sidekick ever (BPM, WS/48, PER, VORP)

[B]1994[/B] - 3 historic chokes against Ewing in 2nd Round ("sit out" game, [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495117-Let-s-review-Pippen-s-3rd-biggest-choke-of-career-the-foul-on-Hubert-Davis-(gif)]"dumb foul"[/url] game, Game 7)

[B]1995[/B] - 19 on 40% in 2nd Round to cause loss, and he had a borderline lottery team until MJ returned - he'd destroyed a dynasty in less than 2 years, so MJ returned to cover it up[/INDENT]

[QUOTE=3ba11;14448845].
People love romanticizing 30 years after the fact - here's the facts:


[INDENT][B]1993[/B] - Pippen didn't get any DPOY votes (Jordan was 2nd) and he had the worst impact stats in the playoffs for a winning sidekick ever (BPM, WS/48, PER, VORP)

[B]1994[/B] - 3 historic chokes against Ewing in 2nd Round ("sit out" game, [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495117-Let-s-review-Pippen-s-3rd-biggest-choke-of-career-the-foul-on-Hubert-Davis-(gif)]"dumb foul"[/url] game, Game 7)

[B]1995[/B] - 19 on 40% in 2nd Round to cause loss, and he had a borderline lottery team until MJ returned - he'd destroyed a dynasty in less than 2 years, so MJ returned to cover it up[/INDENT][/QUOTE]
In 1991 finals, he averaged more ppg numbers than your hero kobe did in 2000.

[QUOTE=Axe;14448846]In 1991 finals, he averaged more ppg numbers than your hero kobe did in 2000.[/QUOTE]


You're comparing peak vs trough

not exactly fair

if we compare peak vs peak, we see that about 500 guys can match pippen's peak of 22/5 with weak efficiency and 2nd round loss - Hughes did it in 2005

Otoh, not many guys can match kobe's peak, which blows Pippen's 91' peak out of the water... 20 ppg and no clutch?.... how does that compare to kobe

[QUOTE=3ba11;14448847]You're comparing peak vs trough

not exactly fair

if we compare peak vs peak, we see that about 500 guys can match pippen's peak of 22/5 with weak efficiency and 2nd round loss - Hughes did it in 2005[/QUOTE]

Was Hughes 3rd in MVP voting in 2005?

[QUOTE=SaintzFury13;14449237]Was Hughes 3rd in MVP voting in 2005?[/QUOTE]


Hughes didn't play for the 94' Bulls and 3-peat, otherwise he would've been 3rd in 94' too - anyone that can get 22/5 would've won in the triangle with the 3-peat system - it's a low bar and Hughes' production and 2-way performance was on the same caliber as Pippen's (22/6/5 and 1st team defense)... and Hughes made the 2nd Round just like Pippen..

btw, lots of guys placed #3 in MVP voting like Blake Griffin or Marc Gasol - it's based on the surprise factor not the best player, and the 94' bulls had goat surprise factor.. No one even knew Pippen was 3rd because he was never mentioned as a candidate and no one thought he was - only when you look it up 30 years later do you see "oh look, pippen happened to accumulate 3rd place votes" (because he was never mentioned at the time as a candidate or thought of as one, so he wasn't a candidate).

Accept facts - Pippen's prime caliber was a low bar, so any bum like Robert Horry can reach it (18/10 on 55% in the 95' Finals), or bums like JR Smith (18/8 on 70% TS in 15' ECF), or the aforementioned Hughes.. it's just a low bar - Jeff Green reached it a few times too... everyone did

It's sad because the top 75 is coming up, which is reserved for history's towering performers like 11' Dirk or 21' Giannis... How the hell does Pippen's low-producing, defensive role player caliber belong?

[img]https://i.postimg.cc/y8ZDM6h0/pipSavedJordan.png[/img]

It's over now 3ball. Rest easy.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14448847]You're comparing peak vs trough

not exactly fair

if we compare peak vs peak, we see that about 500 guys can match pippen's peak of 22/5 with weak efficiency and 2nd round loss - Hughes did it in 2005

Otoh, not many guys can match kobe's peak, which blows Pippen's 91' peak out of the water... 20 ppg and no clutch?.... how does that compare to kobe[/QUOTE]
Kobe averaged only almost 16ppg in the 2000 finals. Don't deflect from this piece of truth.

[QUOTE=Axe;14449457]Kobe averaged only almost 16ppg in the 2000 finals. Don't deflect from this piece of truth.[/QUOTE]


Pippen did that in 2 Finals

Pippen averaged 19.0 on 42% for 6 Finals - you wouldn't think someone could go 6-0 against Finals teams with that kind of crap help

[QUOTE=3ba11;14449466]Pippen did that in 2 Finals

Pippen averaged 19.0 on 42% for 6 Finals - you wouldn't think someone could go 6-0 against Finals teams with that kind of crap help[/QUOTE]
Baloney

[QUOTE=3ba11;14449466]Pippen did that in 2 Finals

Pippen averaged 19.0 on 42% for 6 Finals - you wouldn't think someone could go 6-0 against Finals teams with that kind of crap help[/QUOTE]

What if you were going up against two all time worst #2 options in Finals history

10.7 Hornacek and 14.0 ppg Stockton

[QUOTE=TheCorporation;14449491]
10.7 Hornacek and 14.0 ppg Stockton[/QUOTE]


those guys ragdolled shaq/kobe and duncan/popovich but lost to mj

and stockton clearly outplayed pippen in the 97' Finals, while scoring like jordan in the clutch - pippen had a worst-ever 4 clutch points in the 97' Finals (less than ostertag), while stockton had nearly as many as mj

I dunno I'm gonna have to go with

93 - MJ
94 - Hakeem
95 - Hakeem

but Pip was definitely top 5 in 94 and top 10 in 93 and 95