Better at basketball, Jokić or Kobe?

[QUOTE=LAL;15031771]Better at basketball or better player?

It's your dumbass title bro[/QUOTE]
THEY ARE THE SAME THING.


I’m in awe of how dumb you are.

"better at basketball" is just the culmination of every tool at your disposal, be it size, athleticism, skill, iq, etc that helps you affect winning basketball games.

[QUOTE=j3lademaster;15031775]"better at basketball" is just the culmination of every tool at your disposal, be it size, athleticism, skill, iq, etc that helps you affect winning basketball games.[/QUOTE]
Nah man Jose Calderon was better at basketball than Shaq you don’t get it.

[QUOTE=LAL;15031768]He is.

And that was the question bro.[/QUOTE]

So someone who's better at fundamental things like shooting, passing, rebounding, etc is the better player? Sure you wanna go that route? You're mking the case for Jokič there.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15031224]You are overstating how bad Jokic is as a defender. I don't think he's anywhere near the other all-time great centers on that end, he doesn't have the athletic ability to contest shots at the rim due to his poor vertical, but he's a smart defender with very good hands, he's always near the top of the league in overall deflections and always makes the right rotations.

I would say he is an average to above average defender, which is around what Bird was during his peak. You could argue Bird was the better defender, but it certainly is not going to make up the advantage Jokic has on offense.[/QUOTE]

Who classified Bird as being an average defender at his peak when that was when he was known for his help defense? I didn't watch him then (I was just born), and you're younger than me by like 7 years, so I'm curious to know how you arrived at that conclusion.

Bird got DPOY votes in '84 and finished All-Defensive 2nd Team. '84 was a peak year. You could argue he was in his peak in '83 also (2nd in MVP voting), and he was All-Defensive 2nd Team. Now, he was mostly a PF in those years, but defense is defense.

If you're gonna say Bird was average and Jokic is average, then you're saying they're the same.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;15031800]Who classified Bird as being an average defender at his peak when that was when he was known for his help defense? I didn't watch him then (I was just born), and you're younger than me by like 7 years, so I'm curious to know how you arrived at that conclusion.

Bird got DPOY votes in '84 and finished All-Defensive 2nd Team. '84 was a peak year. You could argue he was in his peak in '83 also (2nd in MVP voting), and he was All-Defensive 2nd Team. Now, he was mostly a PF in those years, but defense is defense.

If you're gonna say Bird was average and Jokic is average, then you're saying they're the same.[/QUOTE]

That poster likes to make weird claims about players defense who has never watched them play or doesn’t have stats to back it up

He’s basically a guy who parrots dumb shit he reads on realgm and hears from ben taylor

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;15031800]Who classified Bird as being an average defender at his peak when that was when he was known for his help defense? I didn't watch him then (I was just born), and you're younger than me by like 7 years, so I'm curious to know how you arrived at that conclusion.

Bird got DPOY votes in '84 and finished All-Defensive 2nd Team. '84 was a peak year. You could argue he was in his peak in '83 also (2nd in MVP voting), and he was All-Defensive 2nd Team. Now, he was mostly a PF in those years, but defense is defense.

If you're gonna say Bird was average and Jokic is average, then you're saying they're the same.[/QUOTE]
Isn't Jokic known for his help defense as well? To top it off he's always near the top in the league at deflections, great defensive rebounder, & good position defender who is alert out there, he has the IQ Bird had that makes him an effective defender while both have physical limitations that stop them from being elite at that end. I would say peak Bird was the better defender, but it's not some crazy huge edge. Jokic does have a noticeable edge as an offensive player though.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15031802]That poster likes to make weird claims about players defense who has never watched them play or doesn’t have stats to back it up

He’s basically a guy who parrots dumb shit he reads on realgm and hears from ben taylor[/QUOTE]

I've watched a shit ton of 80's games before Ben Taylor was even a thing. One thing about Boston is Ainge & DJ would rarely dunk, Parish ran like the wind on a fast break. Sichting never missed from mid-range. Ainge was kinda underrated as a combo guard, labeled a 2, but could be the main ball-handler if asked to.

You are still mad I called out your horrific Kobe game 7 take.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15031814]I've watched a shit ton of 80's games before Ben Taylor was even a thing. One thing about Boston is Ainge & DJ would rarely dunk, Parish ran like the wind on a fast break. Sichting never missed from mid-range. Ainge was kinda underrated as a combo guard, labeled a 2, but could be the main ball-handler if asked to.

You are still mad I called out your horrific Kobe game 7 take.[/QUOTE]

This is so rudimentary lmao

Tbh I didn’t see your response to my post about game 7 Kobe vs Boston and I’m not about to go look it up.

You are a low iq guy who couldn’t tell the difference between a basketball hoop and your asshole even if your life depended on it.

Legit have zero interest in your input.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15031819]This is so rudimentary lmao

[B]Tbh I didn’t see your response to my post about game 7 Kobe vs Boston [/B]and I’m not about to go look it up.

You are a low iq guy who couldn’t tell the difference between a basketball hoop and your asshole even if your life depended on it.

Legit have zero interest in your input.[/QUOTE]

Sure you didn't. :lol

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15031819]Legit have zero interest in your input.[/QUOTE]

You were up at 3am posting about me. You seem interested. lol

Im going to wait for you to say you were up early to get a workout before work, but we all know you were tweaked out on meth.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15031813]Isn't Jokic known for his help defense as well? To top it off he's always near the top in the league at deflections, great defensive rebounder, & good position defender who is alert out there, he has the IQ Bird had that makes him an effective defender while both have physical limitations that stop them from being elite at that end. I would say peak Bird was the better defender, but it's not some crazy huge edge. Jokic does have a noticeable edge as an offensive player though.[/QUOTE]

This is what I was referring to before about recency bias. It's easy to make these claims while Jokic is in the midst of his peak. It should also be noted that he only finished top 3 in deflections this past season IIRC. I don't think it's fair to hinge the discussion on a subset of a category to determine Jokic's defensive acumen based on one season of play when he's ten years into his career.

I'd also take issue with deflections as a single primary statistic (one that is granular), because it's really an extension of steals. I'm sure if deflections existed before 2016 (and back in the 80s), Magic would have probably had a few seasons where he was top 3 or so. He won the steals title twice, but I don't think anyone considered him as being better or even on the same level as Bird defensively.

Bird led the league in DWS 4 times. Only 4 other players have done that in league history, and he secured 3 All-Defensive selections early on in his career. By the mid to late 80s, he was more of help defender but highly regarded from what I've read and heard from others.

That can easily span 8-9 seasons. It's hard for me to understand how one season for Jokic (assuming being an above average defender hinges on deflections) is a parallel.

[QUOTE=Tavr;15031710]And I'd counter argue saying the notion we just throwaway defense and only hone in on numbers...is even more comical. I mean, why watch or play the game? We can just punch-in numbers on a calculator lol. Nobody argued Kobe's defense "made up" for his shooting. What I'm challenging is your ridiculous claim that these games were "inarguably poor" while you simply regurgitate stats.

Kobe began his prime sometime during the middle of that 3-peat. You acknowledge that, ok fine, but still only posted his numbers from 2003 lol. You also removed Kobe's first 2 years off the bench, and then included non prime years like 1999 and 2000. Again no problem, but I was strictly talking about Kobe's prime.

You absolutely added additional criteria :lol Kobe had alright numbers in some of those, but you still made a point to talk about his team losing and getting crushed as favorites. You concluded that only like 2 games were 'good". Its disingenuous. Just say Kobe has a different standard than your favorite player, and stop beating around the bush.

I thought we were strictly debating individual performance. Now this dude is talking about LA "losing by 13" lol[/QUOTE]
Just to emphasize how ridiculous your point about his defense is, here's how many points the Lakers gave up each time they were eliminated

2003: 110
2004: 100
2006: 121
2007: 119
2008: 131
2011: 122
2012: 106

I'm sure Kobe's defense was making all the difference in the world in these games :lol

If you want to focus solely on his prime years, 2001-2012, his elimination game numbers are 25/6/3 on 51%TS, nearly identical if you include '99 & '00.

And I'm adding the outcome because Kobe was favored in most of these series ('03, '04, 08, '11) and his team got fvcking eviscerated, losses by 28, 36 & 39, and they were losing by 28 with 5 minutes to go in '04 before cutting that in half. In addition to playing terribly in these games, his team, as the series favorite, got absolutely destroyed. I think that's relevant.

So you double down on your absurd take and yet again in some odd, passive-aggressive manner...bring up team performance. Since when did individual defense equal a team's ENTIRE output? Are you under the impression its Kobe vs 5 other starters? :oldlol:

I mean think about your logic. You'd rather cling to LA losing by some arbitrary number than account for individual defense. In a topic debating singular performance. Weird hill to die on lol

[QUOTE=Tavr;15032042]So you double down on your absurd take and yet again in some odd, passive-aggressive manner...bring up team performance. Since when did individual defense equal a team's ENTIRE output? Are you under the impression its Kobe vs 5 other starters? :oldlol:

I mean think about your logic. You'd rather cling to LA losing by some arbitrary number than account for individual defense. In a topic debating singular performance. Weird hill to die on lol[/QUOTE]
Show me proof of this impactful defense Kobe was exhibiting in these games that offsets his often underwhelming-dismal offensive performance. I doubt you're going to find it in the games I listed where these teams scored an avalanche on the Lakers, you won't find it in '02 when Bibby was scoring at will in Game 7. You were the one making the claim Kobe's defense needed to be factored in, show me where it made an impact, is it just the Game 7 against Boston?

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15032050]Show me proof of this impactful defense Kobe was exhibiting in these games that offsets his often underwhelming-dismal offensive performance. I doubt you're going to find it in the games I listed where these teams scored an avalanche on the Lakers, you won't find it in '02 when Bibby was scoring at will in Game 7. You were the one making the claim Kobe's defense needed to be factored in, show me where it made an impact, is it just the Game 7 against Boston?[/QUOTE]

Post the full games. :confusedshrug: If they aren't free or available to stream then don't ask me for a ridiculous request.

Your claim is that Kobe's defense had no impact. Stick to that. I absolutely disagree with this notion, considering 1. the praise Kobe received from his peers ([URL="https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/rajon-rondo-on-how-kobe-bryant-outplayed-him-in-game-7-of-the-2010-nba-finals-he-affected-the-game-in-so-many-different-ways/ar-AA1rnAoJ"]Rajon Rondo's thoughts on Kobe's game 7[/URL]) and 2. his reputation for giving consistent effort on that end in big games

I'm still wondering why a good performance is negated because a players team was favored...or because they were "down by double digits and then lost by 7 points" lol. After you justify that then explain why half of LeBrons "great" elimination games are excluded :lol