How do you go about ranking Kobe Bryant?

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14880894]Reggie being better than Wade is an absolutely wild take :lol Wade was a BITW caliber player for several years, his peak was brief but not Bill Walton, while seriously, how many years was Reggie a top 10 player in the league? Dude never even made am=n All-NBA 2nd Team and never finished higher than 13th in MVP voting in his career.[/QUOTE]

Can you provide one post that says as overall players Reggie > Wade? I haven't seen one yet.

The media for some reason didn't like Reggie. He was kind of villain type guy. His game wasn't sexy, he didn't have any athleticism, and he was kind of skinny and ugly but what he did on the court was extremely effective. Leading those Pacer teams to the playoffs every year and a few deep runs is impressive given the lack of star power talent he had.

Kobe and Wade got to play with Shaq and Lebron. Reggie got Jalen Rose and Rik Smits. Pretty huge difference.

If you're talking pure scoring machines, I think he is the 2nd best to ever play after Jordan.

Exceptional foot work, exceptional shooting form, exceptional athleticism at the rim, explosive first step, huge arsenal of one on one moves, relentless mentality in attacking, very good ball handler and dribble moves, good agility, exceptional fadeaway jumper, very good post game as a result, very good face up game, shooting range deep into 3 point territory, no fear of taking a shot ever, physically very strong for his height. Offensively there's just not a whole lot you can look at 1 on 1 and find weakness with. Even a little more razzle dazzle streetball in his game than Jordan.

81 points is still the highest point total for anyone since like what? The 1960s? With the current league's soft D, he'd probably have pushed that to 90 or more points.

His issue was that he could be baited into taking bad shots at times, but 1 on 1 offensively, I think he's the 2nd best to play.

When you factor in on top of that he was a very good defensive player, well I mean how are you one of the greatest offensive talents and a good defender on top of that and have 5 championships and that's not enough for a top 10 spot? To me that's pretty sus.

I put a lot into a player's actual skill set/peak talent ability though. Career accomplishments are only one piece of the puzzle and they're based on a lot of factors outside of a player's control.

Wilt played in an era that's just too different to modern basketball to really compare, no disrespect to him but I don't think he'd be scoring 50 ppg in any point past 1980 in the NBA.

[QUOTE=Soundwave;14881245]If you're talking pure scoring machines, I think he is the 2nd best to ever play after Jordan.

Exceptional foot work, exceptional shooting form, exceptional athleticism at the rim, explosive first step, huge arsenal of one on one moves, relentless mentality in attacking, very good ball handler and dribble moves, good agility, exceptional fadeaway jumper, very good post game as a result, very good face up game, shooting range deep into 3 point territory, no fear of taking a shot ever, physically very strong for his height. Offensively there's just not a whole lot you can look at 1 on 1 and find weakness with. Even a little more razzle dazzle streetball in his game than Jordan.

81 points is still the highest point total for anyone since like what? The 1960s? With the current league's soft D, he'd probably have pushed that to 90 or more points.

His issue was that he could be baited into taking bad shots at times, but 1 on 1 offensively, I think he's the 2nd best to play.

When you factor in on top of that he was a very good defensive player, well I mean how are you one of the greatest offensive talents and a good defender on top of that and have 5 championships and that's not enough for a top 10 spot? To me that's pretty sus.

I put a lot into a player's actual skill set/peak talent ability though. Career accomplishments are only one piece of the puzzle and they're based on a lot of factors outside of a player's control.

Wilt played in an era that's just too different to modern basketball to really compare, no disrespect to him but I don't think he'd be scoring 50 ppg in any point past 1980 in the NBA.[/QUOTE]
People would respect him more as a great scorer had he gotten similar scores or points on lesser shots, not the way he did it his usual way. But because he believed that is shows him off to be 'hardworking', that's what happened. At the expense of being a team player tho, hence why it infuriated his coach and many of his teammates bt.

[QUOTE=Soundwave;14881245]If you're talking pure scoring machines, I think he is the 2nd best to ever play after Jordan.

Exceptional foot work, exceptional shooting form, exceptional athleticism at the rim, explosive first step, huge arsenal of one on one moves, relentless mentality in attacking, very good ball handler and dribble moves, good agility, exceptional fadeaway jumper, very good post game as a result, very good face up game, shooting range deep into 3 point territory, no fear of taking a shot ever, physically very strong for his height. Offensively there's just not a whole lot you can look at 1 on 1 and find weakness with. Even a little more razzle dazzle streetball in his game than Jordan.

81 points is still the highest point total for anyone since like what? The 1960s? With the current league's soft D, he'd probably have pushed that to 90 or more points.

His issue was that he could be baited into taking bad shots at times, but 1 on 1 offensively, I think he's the 2nd best to play.

When you factor in on top of that he was a very good defensive player, well I mean how are you one of the greatest offensive talents and a good defender on top of that and have 5 championships and that's not enough for a top 10 spot? To me that's pretty sus.

I put a lot into a player's actual skill set/peak talent ability though. Career accomplishments are only one piece of the puzzle and they're based on a lot of factors outside of a player's control.

Wilt played in an era that's just too different to modern basketball to really compare, no disrespect to him but I don't think he'd be scoring 50 ppg in any point past 1980 in the NBA.[/QUOTE]

These are interesting points. I'm curious as to how this differs from say, Hakeem? Kobe learned his footwork from Hakeem, which elevated his game. Hakeem during his peak years saw consistent doubles or triples, but he was not one who really forced a shot. In fact, if you recall the '96 series against Seattle, their consistent triple teaming him was what resulted in a poor series.

With Kobe, he would get trapped sometimes on one on ones and still force it. So I think there's a lot to be said about that given the results (sometimes inefficiency and less than desirable results in the clutch).

I do mostly agree with him as a scorer but is he really ahead of KD? Granted, KD's numbers are inflated due to this era, but I think one could make an argument that he's ahead of Kobe in that regard.

Great point with regards to the combination of Offense+Defense+5/7 Championships not equaling top 10. It doesn't really make sense in that regard.

The only problem with that is the other guys in the top 10 are similar in that respect with the exception of maybe Magic. Even Bird was All-Defensive selected 3x in his first 5 years before being moved to the SF position where he became an elite help defender.

I wouldn't be mad at anyone who ranks Kobe top 10, but I think he's just outside of it.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14881628]

I do mostly agree with him as a scorer but is he really ahead of KD? Granted, KD's numbers are inflated due to this era, but I think one could make an argument that he's ahead of Kobe in that regard.

[/QUOTE]

Kobe has more in his bag, especially once he added a post-game, on top of more counters based on what the defender was doing. Durant being a 7 foot sniper is as simple as a crossover or maybe a double crossover and he'll just rise up and rip it. Nobody outside of Giannis or now Wemby has the size/athleticism/mobility to really challenge his shot. Durant is obviously a better pure shooter, and took better shots( aided by the aforementioned traits). Could be bothered more by physicality than Kobe( mind you Kobe had his struggled with physical defense too, especially in some of his finals). I never saw KD as having much of a 'gunner' mindset given his scoring prowess, he generally seems to stay in pocket in terms of shot attempts( career high 37). I wouldn't mind seeing a situation where he just went fukkit and got up 40-45 shots and he was having a great shooting night. Out of all the scorers nowadays he's the most notable person to have not gone for 70 yet ( and Steph I suppose).

[QUOTE=John8204;14880936]Well Wade is being supported by someone who can't seem to make a top ten list of SG's. I have Reggie in the top ten for the 90's...here's a list that you aren't going to do...

1. MJ, 2. Hakeem, 3. Stockton, 4. Shaq 5. Barkley, 6.Robinson, 7. Malone, 8. Pippen, 9. Reggie 10. Ewing
1. Lebron 2. Kobe 3. Duncan 4 Dirk, 5 KG, 6 Iverson, 7. Kidd, 8. Wade 9. Pierce 10. Nash

[/QUOTE]

No way in hell is Reggie ahead of Ewing. Reggie did one thing and one thing only...shoot, and it's not like he scored alot either. He didn't play D, he didn't get assists, he couldn't rebound, didn't get steals nor block shots. All the things DWade could do. It's foolishness to think Miller>DWade.

BTW, Stockton ahead of Shaq, Barkley, Robinson, Malone is just trolling.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14881641]Kobe has more in his bag, especially once he added a post-game, on top of more counters based on what the defender was doing. Durant being a 7 foot sniper is as simple as a crossover or maybe a double crossover and he'll just rise up and rip it. Nobody outside of Giannis or now Wemby has the size/athleticism/mobility to really challenge his shot. Durant is obviously a better pure shooter, and took better shots( aided by the aforementioned traits). Could be bothered more by physicality than Kobe( mind you Kobe had his struggled with physical defense too, especially in some of his finals). I never saw KD as having much of a 'gunner' mindset given his scoring prowess, he generally seems to stay in pocket in terms of shot attempts( career high 37). I wouldn't mind seeing a situation where he just went fukkit and got up 40-45 shots and he was having a great shooting night. Out of all the scorers nowadays he's the most notable person to have not gone for 70 yet ( and Steph I suppose).[/QUOTE]

KD never even had 60 I think...

[QUOTE=dankok8;14881665]KD never even had 60 I think...[/QUOTE]

You're right, I thought he did but he got 55 against the Hawks on April 2, 2022.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14881667]You're right, I thought he did but he got 55 against the Hawks on April 2, 2022.[/QUOTE]

Yea he can get 30 effortlessly but he isn't one of those players to often explode for a lot. Has relatively few 40+ and 50+ games. Kareem was similar.

.
[B]Kobe was superior prime vs prime since Kobe always played much better than Lebron when they faced the same playoff opponent - he did so 5/5 times when Kobe was still in his prime:[/B]


[indent]08' Kobe vs Spurs'............... 29 on 53%
07' Lebron vs Spurs............. 22 on 36%

08' Kobe vs Celtics'.............. 26 on 41%
08' Lebron vs Celtics............ 26 on 36%

2010 Kobe vs Celtics'........... 29 on 41%
2010 Lebron vs Celtics......... 26 on 44%

2011 Kobe vs Mavs'............. 22 on 40%
2011 Lebron vs Mavs........... 18 on 47%

09' Kobe vs Magic'............... beat Magic
09' Lebron vs Magic............. lost to Magic*

[SIZE=1][I]* as favorite due to excessive ball-dominant stats and goat choke in Game 4 (7 TO in fourth & OT), and decided to guard Lee instead of Hedo[/I][/SIZE][/indent]

[QUOTE=3ba11;14881676].
[B]Kobe was superior prime vs prime since Kobe always played much better than Lebron when they faced the same playoff opponent - he did so 5/5 times when Kobe was still in his prime:[/B]


[indent]08' Kobe vs Spurs'............... 29 on 53%
07' Lebron vs Spurs............. 22 on 36%

08' Kobe vs Celtics'.............. 26 on 41%
08' Lebron vs Celtics............ 26 on 36%

2010 Kobe vs Celtics'........... 29 on 41%
2010 Lebron vs Celtics......... 26 on 44%

2011 Kobe vs Mavs'............. 22 on 40%
2011 Lebron vs Mavs........... 18 on 47%

09' Kobe vs Magic'............... beat Magic
09' Lebron vs Magic............. lost to Magic*

[SIZE=1][I]* as favorite due to excessive ball-dominant stats and goat choke in Game 4 (7 TO in fourth & OT), and decided to guard Lee instead of Hedo[/I][/SIZE][/indent][/QUOTE]
And these are cherry-picked stats, i assume?

[QUOTE=RogueBorg;14881658]No way in hell is Reggie ahead of Ewing. Reggie did one thing and one thing only...shoot, and it's not like he scored alot either. He didn't play D, he didn't get assists, he couldn't rebound, didn't get steals nor block shots. All the things DWade could do. It's foolishness to think Miller>DWade.

BTW, [B]Stockton ahead of Shaq, Barkley, Robinson, Malone is just trolling.[/B][/QUOTE]

John Stockton is the best pure PG of all-time...this is in my opinion. You bring up all the things Ewing did and yet you don't respect Stockton. A guy who played his role as the third or fourth option when it came to scoring and elevated his teammates...not just Karl Malone but also Hornadek, Jeff Malone, and Thurl Bailey. The man was also a steals machine which means getting extra possessions which helps your team win. We talk about guards defensive based on media awards but Stockton's analytics are insane. He's number 3 all time when it comes to VORP behind Jordan and Lebron.

Reggie and Ewing are close in my eyes but I would give Reggie the edge. I agree with you that Ewing had more tools to win, and in the regular season Patrick was significantly better. However head to head in the playoffs Reggie has the better record and he's the better shooter.

Duncan stunted Manus growth?

I've heard it all now....

[QUOTE=Carbine;14881744]Duncan stunted Manus growth?

I've heard it all now....[/QUOTE]

Yea, first I'm hearing of this myself. Anyone who watched the 2005 playoffs would vehemently disagree. And that was just Manu's third year in the league.

[QUOTE=John8204;14881697]
Reggie and Ewing are close in my eyes but I would give Reggie the edge. I agree with you that Ewing had more tools to win, and in the regular season Patrick was significantly better. However head to head in the playoffs Reggie has the better record and [B]he's the better shooter.[/B][/QUOTE]

Ewing and Reggie play two completely different positions and have different skillsets. Ewing was a better shotblocker and rebounder. Pointless observation yes? So would be using shooting as an arguing point for Reggie.