Better at basketball, Jokić or Kobe?

Think that's pretty close to a tie and the poll reflects that.

Kobe's issues are not his skillset, his skillset and abilities are impeccable, probably one of the most skilled players ever. It was his mentality and lack of maturity with his game at times that could get him into trouble.

Jokic obviously has a great skill set though his athleticism is some what lacking and he simply can't be the 1 on 1 type of iso scoring threat that Kobe is due to a lack of speed/agility, but for his size he is still quite good in those areas. Passing ability is obviously off the charts.

[QUOTE=Soundwave;15032069]Think that's pretty close to a tie and the poll reflects that.

Kobe's issues are not his skillset, his skillset and abilities are impeccable, probably one of the most skilled players ever. It was his mentality and lack of maturity with his game at times that could get him into trouble.

Jokic obviously has a great skill set though his athleticism is some what lacking and he simply can't be the 1 on 1 type of iso scoring threat that Kobe is due to a lack of speed/agility, but for his size he is still quite good in those areas. Passing ability is obviously off the charts.[/QUOTE]

This is why Kobe's better though.

You said it, Kobe's only flaw was his ego. Yolk's flaws are physical and tangible. His flaw is mobility. He's a great scorer in the post but he can't break you down one on one from just anywhere on the court. When it's the final few minutes and the game slows down, his weaknesses really get exposed.

Yolk brings a lot to the table sure, but if you're building a team you could find someone else to run point. You could find someone else to score inside. You could find someone else to rebound. What Kobe brings to the table is just a lot harder to replace, and that's the ability to [B]close[/B].

[url]https://youtu.be/8wJUA9m82D8?si=mMtB0xI4e-nWk6h7[/url]




Poor bawler :lol

[QUOTE=Baller234;15032110]This is why Kobe's better though.

You said it, Kobe's only flaw was his ego. Yolk's flaws are physical and tangible. His flaw is mobility. He's a great scorer in the post but he can't break you down one on one from just anywhere on the court. When it's the final few minutes and the game slows down, his weaknesses really get exposed.

Yolk brings a lot to the table sure, but if you're building a team you could find someone else to [B]run point[/B]. You could find someone else to [B]score inside[/B]. You could find someone else to [B]rebound[/B]. What Kobe brings to the table is just a lot harder to replace, and that's the ability to [B]close[/B].[/QUOTE]

IMO, you place too much emphasis on the ability to close. You said it yourself above but Jokic can run point, score (inside AND out) and rebound - [B]all in one player[/B]. And ego, selfishness, lack of passing to teammates are very big pluses for Jokic and very big minuses for Kobe. Ok, so Jokic is slow - so were a lot of big men like Moses Malone (3 MVPs) and Shaq (not at the beginning).

[QUOTE=rmt;15032419]IMO, you place too much emphasis on the ability to close. You said it yourself above but Jokic can run point, score (inside AND out) and rebound - [B]all in one player[/B]. And ego, selfishness, lack of passing to teammates are very big pluses for Jokic and very big minuses for Kobe. Ok, so Jokic is slow - so were a lot of big men like Moses Malone (3 MVPs) and Shaq (not at the beginning).[/QUOTE]

Yolk is a versatile player yes, but what he brings to the table can be replaced. You might need a combination of players to do it, but it can be replaced. A team with a good point guard and a good big doesn't need Yolk. Not like you're missing anything on defense.

But very few players can truly close like Kobe. Very few players even wanna be that guy in the first place.

And yes Yolk and those guys were slow, which means you cannot just give them the ball anywhere on the court and let them go to work. They need the ball in their spot first. It's why Caruso was able to give Yolk fits. He kept him out of his spot.

Kobe doesn't have "spots". You could inbound the ball to Kobe and let him do the rest. Sure you could get that from other great scorers that can go for 25-40 in the playoffs... but with Kobe you're getting 35-50. Plus you're getting a suicidal competitor on top of that. A guy that hustles on defense and leads by example.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15032429]Yolk is a versatile player yes, but what he brings to the table can be replaced. You might need a combination of players to do it, but it can be replaced. A team with a good point guard and a good big doesn't need Yolk. Not like you're missing anything on defense.

But very few players can truly close like Kobe. Very few players even wanna be that guy in the first place.

And yes Yolk and those guys were slow, which means you cannot just give them the ball anywhere on the court and let them go to work. They need the ball in their spot first. It's why Caruso was able to give Yolk fits. He kept him out of his spot.

Kobe doesn't have "spots". You could inbound the ball to Kobe and let him do the rest. Sure you could get that from other great scorers that can go for 25-40 in the playoffs... but with Kobe you're getting 35-50. Plus you're getting a suicidal competitor on top of that. A guy that hustles on defense and leads by example.[/QUOTE]
Nice fanfiction. In reality Jokic scores better than Kobe in the playoffs.

Kobe's definitely made some incredible shots in crunchtime. The degree of difficulty, over double teams etc. Just a really good TOUGH shot maker. I'll say this though... I think his reputation in crunchtime does get overblown, especially in the playoffs. There were players during his prime that were equally and statistically better in the clutch. Wade, Dirk and some years contrary to narratives, LeBron.

If the criteria for clutch shot making is 5 minutes left and down/up 5 or tied...yes, there are players who were equally as clutch. If the criteria is less than 24 seconds to tie or take the lead, same thing.

People can say both are talented. Joker is more versatile and involves his teammates to his plays, can probably even play as a sf if needed. That's why he stands out, esp. for someone his size. Otoh, kobe leans on being traditional, was obsessed in making shots and is like a mediocre jordan who used to be so selfish more or less.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15030899]But sure, they're just retarded stans.[/QUOTE]
[Url=https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRPZqPRPHIF2xVI5uiUFQ7DcZyo3SNqMMQAlw&usqp=CAU][img]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/image.php?u=827668&dateline=1624237688[/img][/url]

Kobe is becoming underrated on this board and elsewhere. People are bringing up inefficiencies way too much and not considering the gauntlet that he typically had to run through, or the fact that he played a considerable amount of his prime in the height of the defensive era.

Furthermore, his overall offensive efficiency wasn't some anomaly given the time period.

[B]PS Kobe '00-'10: 28 PPG on 45/34/82 splits (56% TS%)[/B]

PS TMac '00-'08: 29 PPG on 43/30/77 splits (52% TS%)

PS Iverson '00-08: 30 PPG on 40/33/77 splits (52% TS%)

PS Sprewell '00-'04: 20 PPG on 42/36/78 splits (50% TS%)

PS Allen '00-'10: 19 PPG on 44/40/90 splits (58% TS%)

PS Vince '00-'10: 23 PPG on 41/31/79 splits (51% TS%)

PS LeBron '06-'10: 29 PPG on 46/32/74 splits (56% TS%)

PS Manu '03-'10: 16 PPG on 44/38/83 splits (58% TS%)

PS Wade '04-'10: 26 PPG on 48/35/79 splits (57% TS%)


What are we really arguing here? Clearly during Kobe's prime, his efficiency was relative to his peers. And I'd argue that it was usually on the tougher road, given he played the entire time in the Western Conference. T-Mac, for example, faced one top 5 defense (Detroit) in that entire spread. Kobe faced two top 5 defenses just in 2000 alone. And that doesn't even account for the mix of offense that those teams brought to the table.

I'm biased, but I believe the 2000s was the greatest era we ever saw. It brought all the elements of historical basketball all into one, with the highest level of guard play we had ever seen. Kobe likely stands on top of that hill, and that means a lot.

GOAT.

[video=youtube_share;hCH-owsrC-A]https://youtu.be/hCH-owsrC-A?si=Zl9L7yZ2fimdC8rg[/video]

A lot of yall just dont know who Kobe was.

Kobes winning the poll.

:oldlol:

You guys need to make some alts.

Kobe stans are notorious for having alts.

I felt like it didn't make sense to lump in seasons where these guys were clearly not yet in/past their prime, I was curious what their numbers would look like if you focused solely on that

Kobe 2001-2010: 29/6/5 on 55%TS

T-Mac 2001-2007: 30/7/6 on 53%TS

Iverson 1999-2006: 31/4/6 on 49%TS

Allen 2000-2007: 25/5/5 on 60%TS

Vince 2000-2007: 26/7/5 on 52%TS

Wade 2005-2011: 27/6/6 on 58%TS

I left out Spree as he just had no business being in the discussion, Manu just didn't have the volume, and most of LeBron's took place after Kobe's prime anyway. The most notable thing is how undeserved McGrady's playoff rep is when despite never getting out of the first round, he was usually ballin.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15032772]I felt like it didn't make sense to lump in seasons where these guys were clearly not yet in/past their prime, I was curious what their numbers would look like if you focused solely on that

Kobe 2001-2010: 29/6/5 on 55%TS

T-Mac 2001-2007: 30/7/6 on 53%TS

Iverson 1999-2006: 31/4/6 on 49%TS

Allen 2000-2007: 25/5/5 on 60%TS

Vince 2000-2007: 26/7/5 on 52%TS

Wade 2005-2011: 27/6/6 on 58%TS

I left out Spree as he just had no business being in the discussion, Manu just didn't have the volume, and most of LeBron's took place after Kobe's prime anyway. The most notable thing is how undeserved McGrady's playoff rep is when despite never getting out of the first round, he was usually ballin.[/QUOTE]

Tmac has become underrated. 20 something years ago Tmac vs Kobe was a real discussion, and if you actually use 3ball's criteria which is 'max defensive attention' with minimal offensive help Tmac exemplified it and still delivered solid performances. He had Dirk in cuffs during the houston mavs series and the only reason Dirk was even able to get his shooting percentage past 30 that series was feasting on Ryan Bowen and Scott Padgett. McGrady looked all defensive first team when he wanted to.

[QUOTE=j3lademaster;15032776]Tmac has become underrated. 20 something years ago Tmac vs Kobe was a real discussion, and if you actually use 3ball's criteria which is 'max defensive attention' with minimal offensive help Tmac exemplified it and still delivered solid performances. He had Dirk in cuffs during the houston mavs series and the only reason Dirk was even able to get his shooting percentage past 30 that series was feasting on Ryan Bowen and Scott Padgett. McGrady looked all defensive first team when he wanted to.[/QUOTE]
I feel like between roster construction/injury, T-Mac was arguably the unluckiest player of all time. He was trapped on legitimately the worst rosters I've ever seen in Orlando, then in Houston injuries started to affect his game while Yao constantly missed time.

If Doc doesn't tell Duncan his family can't fly on the team plane, they would've been battling Shaq & Kobe in some epic Finals.