BTW LAZ - I remember we talked about major rule changes, here's the list I'm using presently:
[code]Season
1955 Shot Clock Introduced Penalty FTA after 6
1956
1957
1958
1959
1960
1961
1962
1963
1964
1965 Lane widened 12
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BTW LAZ - I remember we talked about major rule changes, here's the list I'm using presently:
[code]Season
1955 Shot Clock Introduced Penalty FTA after 6
1956
1957
1958
1959
1960
1961
1962
1963
1964
1965 Lane widened 12
[QUOTE=dankok8]It puzzles me how LAZERUSS cites Wilt's FG% and his teammates' and then pretends there is absolutely no link between them. Wilt's style of play AFFECTED his teammates.
Is it a coincidence that when Wilt shot less his teams did much better? In 65-66 the Sixers had an ORtg of 95.3 (6th of 9 teams) and in 66-67 the team had an ORtg of 101.5 (1st of 10 teams). Wilt went from 25 shots to 14 shots a game. Despite being the best and most efficient scorer on his team when he took fewer shots (and his awful awful teammates took more), the Sixers became an offensive juggernaut. Explain to me why that was the case kind sir...
A similar though smaller jump in ORtg was also seen between the 70-71 and 71-72 seasons. Wilt again decided to shoot less and focus on rebounding, defense, and outlet passing.
Of course we know that in 67-68 and 72-73 Wilt got carried away and started shooting too little even when his teams needed him. Both Alex Hannum and Bill Sharman were puzzled at Wilt's lack of aggression at times.[/QUOTE]
Because, as usual, ORtg is an advanced, and flawed stat. I can give you a ton of examples, but let's use Wilt's 61-62 season (his highest FGA season BTW), as an example.
His Warriors LED the league in scoring (and by a solid margin) at 125.4 ppg. They also finished 2nd in eFG% at .439. And think about this... the league ppg average was 118.8 ppg, and the league eFG% was at .426. Now you tell me how his team which was MILES ahead of the league average in scoring, and well ahead of the league average in efficiency, came in FOURTH in ORtg????
But let's chronicle Wilt's contributions...
First, a year before Wilt arrived, the Warriors were 7th in scoring (in an eight team league) at 103.3 ppg, in an NBA that averaged 108.2 ppg. They were 8th (dead last) in eFG% at .381, in a league that shot .395. And their ORtg was last.
In Wilt's rookie season, his team jumped to third in scoring, at 118.6 ppg, in a league that averaged 115.3 ppg. They shot an eFG% of .409, which was good enough for 6th, and in a league that shot .410 overall. Their ORtg was 7th. Again, makes absolutely zero sense. But, that is still not the point. From what the actual scoring and efficiency numbers show me, his presence DRAMATICALLY improved their offense from the year before. BTW, their team record improved from a last-place 32-40 mark in 58-59, to 49-26 in his rookie season.
In Chamberlain's second season, his FGAs declined slightly, but so did their team record (down to 46-33 from 49-26 in his rookie season.) His effciency, however, was considerably better. In any case, his Warriors continued their upward trend in SCORING, averaging 121.0 (which was barely behind the leading team at 121.3), and in a league that averaged 118.1 ppg. And the Warriors now jumped to second in eFG% at .424, in a league that shot .415. So, second (and barely) in scoring, and second in eFG%...and guess what? SIXTH in ORtg. ?????????
I already mentioned Wilt's staggering third season above. His team's scoring was the best in the league, and their eFG% was 2nd...and only FOURTH in ORtg. Oh, and their record improved to 49-31 from the year before. In any case, in Wilt's highest FGA season, his team's scoring and efficiency jumped considerably from the season before.
And this is where it gets interesting. In Chamberlain's 4th season, (62-63), his team's offense declined somewhat, even though Wilt averaged 44.8 ppg on a .528 eFG%. Overall, they came in 4th in scoring, at 118.5 ppg, in a league that averaged 115.3 ppg, and their eFG% of .450 was good enough for 3rd. Their ORtg was still a puzzling 5th overall. Still, with that offensive production, how in the hell did they finish with a 31-49 record?
And this is where your theory really gets blown to bits. Chamberlain's new coach in the 63-64 season, Alex Hannum, brought in a new philosophy. And here is an excerpt...
[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1075691/2/index.htm[/url]
[QUOTE]
San Francisco had a coach, but what Hannum got was no bargain. The team had the morale of a bunch of recruits immediately after their first G.I. haircuts. Says Hannum, "I realized how completely inadequate the team had become. They had learned to depend on Wilt so completely they were even incapable of beating a squad of rookies. I had to convince them that they, too, had responsibilities."
Hannum demanded that the Warriors play all-out the entire time they were in a practice game, running constantly and finally cutting toward the basket or to an uncluttered spot for a jump shot. When a player began to bleed from the eyes, Hannum would send in a substitute. But the trouble was, these players had no stomach for continuous motion because they knew that if Chamberlain got the ball they would never see it again.
Hannum's next task, then, was to convince Wilt Chamberlain
continuing...
As for his 65-66 Sixers... Again, this ORtg ranking was/is pure s**t. Their ORtg was only good enough for 6th, but they finsihed 4th in scoring at 117.3 ppg, in a league that averaged 115.5 ppg, and second in eFG% at .446, in a league that shot .433. And Wilt led the league in scoring, at 33.5 ppg; led the league in rebounding, at 24.6 rpg; led the league in FG% at .540 (and again, was light years above the league average.) AND, he even had time to hand out 5.2 apg. Oh, and his Sixers went from a 40-40 record the year before, to the best record in the league, at 55-25. Incidently, while Wilt was shooting that .540 from the floor, his teammates collectively shot .416.
But then your theory really gets blown to bits. During the regular season series with Boston, Wilt's Sixers went 6-3. And in those nine games, Wilt averaged 28.3 ppg, and 30.7 rpg. We don't have all of his games for his FG/FGA and apg, but in what we do have, he shot .521 from the field, and handed out 3.7 apg.
In the EDF's, his Sixers were wiped out 4-1 by a Celtics team that they had so easily beaten 6-3 during the regular season. Obviously Chamberlain must have had a huge decline, right? In the EDF's, Chamberlain averaged 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and handed out 3.2 apg. (BTW, the recaps had Wilt completely outplaying Russell...even in his lowest scoring game of the series.) So, here was Wilt putting up almost IDENTICAL numbers against Russell and Boston that he had during the regular season...and yet his team was waxed 4-1. Well, the answer was pretty emphatic. Chamberlain's TEAMMATES collectively shot .352 from the field in that series.
I could continue to the end of his career, but it was all too painfully obvious. Chamberlain almost always played nearly the same way in his post-seasons, that he had in his regular seasons, but his TEAMMATES almost always had DRAMATIC declines in those post-seasons.
[QUOTE=fpliii]BTW LAZ - I remember we talked about major rule changes, here's the list I'm using presently:
[code]Season
1955 Shot Clock Introduced Penalty FTA after 6
1956
1957
1958
1959
1960
1961
1962
1963
1964
1965 Lane widened 12’->16’
1966
1967 Penalty FTA after 6->5 Zone defense curtailed Hack-a-Shaq added
1968
1969
1970
1971
1972
1973
1974
1975
1976
1977
1978
1979 Hand-checking curtailed Hack-a-Shaq 2 minutes regulation
1980 Three-point FG introduced
1981
1982 Penalty FTA eliminated
1983
1984
1985
1986
1987
1988
1989
1990
1991
1992
1993
1994
1995 Three-point line shortened Hand-checking curtailed
1996
1997
1998 Three-point line restored Hand-checking curtailed
1999
2000 Hand-checking curtailed 5 seconds back to the basket
2001
2002 Zone defense allowed Hand-checking relaxed
2003
2004
2005 Hand-checking curtailed
2006
2007
2008
2009
2010
2011
2012
2013 [/code][/QUOTE]
I would add this:
[url]http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html[/url]
[QUOTE]1981-82
• Zone defense rules clarified with new rules for Illegal Defensive Alignments.
a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) for more than three seconds.
b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint area).
c. [B]Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side[/B].
d. Offensive player above foul line and inside circle must be played by defender inside dotted line.
e. If offensive player is above the top of the circle, defender must come to a position above foul line.
f. Defender on cutter must follow the cutter, switch, or double-team the ball[/QUOTE]
The double-teaming rule obviously means that the great post players of the 60's and 70's were routinely being doubled, even without the ball (which, of course, we KNOW that Chamberlain was.)
As a side-note, the widening of the lane before the start of the 64-65 season (incidently college never adopted this BTW), was aimed strictly at WILT. And it had ZERO affect on him. In his 63-64 season, he had averaged 36.9 ppg. During the first half of the 64-65 season, and before he was traded at mid-season, an ailing Wilt was averaging 38.9 ppg. After the trade to the Sixers, and with a better supporting cast, he cut back his shooting, and finished the season at 34.7 ppg. (Oh, and against Russell in the EDF's, he hung a 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, .555 eFG% , .580 TS% series.) Then, in his 65-66 season, he led the NBA in scoring at 33.5 ppg on a then record .540 eFG% (in a league that shot an eFG% of .433.)
The widening of the lane had NO affect on Chamberlain, BUT, it did have a considerable affect on the rest of the NBA. The league eFG%'s went down from .433 in '63-64, to .426 in 64-65, and scoring declined slightly from 111.0 ppg in 63-64, to 110.6 ppg in 64-65.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]I would add this:
[url]http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html[/url]
The double-teaming rule obviously means that the great post players of the 60's and 70's were routinely being doubled, even without the ball (which, of course, we KNOW that Chamberlain was.)[/QUOTE]
Ah okay, thanks. Updated my files.
LAZERUSS...
ORtg is points produced per 100 possessions and thus it's normalized for pace. The reason for example Wilt's 61-62 Warriors led the league in PPG but weren't that efficient offensively is that they were the league's faster paced team at 131.1 possessions per game. The high pace incidentally also aided Wilt in accumulating stats.
ORtg is a damn fine stat for comparing the teams in the same league. It basically gives points per possession. It combines the effect of field goals, free throws, offensive rebounds etc. It's really the closest there is to a perfect stat when comparing team offenses.
And please don't say Wilt played just as well in the playoffs.
[QUOTE]
Season: 30.1 ppg, 22.9 rpg, 4.4 apg on 54.0 %FG/51.1 %FT/54.7 %TS in 45.8 mpg
Playoffs: 22.5 ppg, 24.5 rpg, 4.2 apg on 52.2 %FG/46.5 %FT/52.4 %TS in 47.2 mpg
Finals: 18.6 ppg, 24.6 rpg, 3.8 apg on 55.9 %FG/37.5 %FT/52.8 %TS in 47.3 mpg
Year-by-year playoff scoring compared to regular season?
1960: [COLOR="Red"]-4.6 ppg[/COLOR], [COLOR="SeaGreen"]+3.5 %FG[/COLOR], [COLOR="SeaGreen"]+0.5 %TS[/COLOR]
1961: [COLOR="Red"]-1.4 ppg[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-4.0 %FG[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-2.7 %TS[/COLOR]
1962: [COLOR="Red"]-15.4 ppg[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-3.9 %FG[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-2.8 %TS[/COLOR]
1963: did not make playoffs
1964: [COLOR="Red"]-2.2 ppg[/COLOR], [COLOR="SeaGreen"]+1.9 %FG[/COLOR], [COLOR="SeaGreen"]+0.6 %TS[/COLOR]
1965: [COLOR="Red"]-5.4 ppg[/COLOR], [COLOR="SeaGreen"]+2.0 %FG[/COLOR], [COLOR="SeaGreen"]+3.9 %TS[/COLOR]
1966: [COLOR="Red"]-5.5 ppg[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-3.1 %FG[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-4.7 %TS[/COLOR]
1967: [COLOR="Red"]-2.4 ppg[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-10.4 %FG[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-9.1 %TS[/COLOR]
1968: [COLOR="Red"]-0.6 ppg[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-6.1 %FG[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-4.6 %TS[/COLOR]
1969: [COLOR="Red"]-6.6 ppg[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-3.8 %FG[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-4.6 %TS[/COLOR]
1970: [COLOR="Red"]-5.2 ppg[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-1.9 %FG[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-2.6 %TS[/COLOR]
1971: [COLOR="Red"]-2.4 ppg[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-9.0 %FG[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-7.9 %TS[/COLOR]
1972: [COLOR="Red"]-0.1 ppg[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-8.6 %FG[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-4.8 %TS[/COLOR]
1973: [COLOR="Red"]-2.8 ppg[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-17.5 %FG[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-13.3 %TS[/COLOR]
Year-by-year finals scoring compared to the regular season?
1964: [COLOR="Red"]-7.7 ppg[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-0.9 %FG[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-2.8 %TS[/COLOR]
1967: [COLOR="Red"]-6.4 ppg[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-12.3 %FG[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-14.0 %TS[/COLOR]
1969: [COLOR="Red"]-8.8 ppg[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-8.3 %FG[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-9.3 %TS[/COLOR]
1970: [COLOR="Red"]-4.0 ppg[/COLOR], [COLOR="SeaGreen"]+5.7 %FG[/COLOR], [COLOR="SeaGreen"]+2.2 %TS[/COLOR]
1972: [COLOR="SeaGreen"]+4.6 ppg[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-4.9 %FG[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-0.7 %TS[/COLOR]
1973: [COLOR="Red"]-1.6 ppg[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-20.3 %FG[/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"]-19.5 %TS[/COLOR]
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=dankok8]LAZERUSS...
ORtg is points produced per 100 possessions and thus it's normalized for pace. The reason for example Wilt's 61-62 Warriors led the league in PPG but weren't that efficient offensively is that they were the league's faster paced team at 131.1 possessions per game. The high pace incidentally also aided Wilt in accumulating stats.
ORtg is a damn fine stat for comparing the teams in the same league. It basically gives points per possession. It combines the effect of field goals, free throws, offensive rebounds etc. It's really the closest there is to a perfect stat when comparing team offenses.[/QUOTE]
It is yet another pure S**T advanced stat, and I just proved it to you. And pace is pace. The league wide pace in '62 was (an ESTIMATED) 126 (which, of course blows away Pauk/Montana's theory of 140-150...and this was by far, the highest in the decade.) You simply can't punish Wilt for ELEVATING his team's pace.
And again, it is purely an estimate. Why? If we were to just normalize for "pace" alone, then the average NBA team in '62, transported to 2014, would be scoring 87 ppg...or 13 ppg less than the average team in 2014. Again, it is pure POS stat.
But, I wouldn't expect anything different from a KNOWN Wilt-basher. (and a closet Magic-basher.)
[QUOTE=julizaver]You proclaimed him dead last year and even created a thread about it. Should rethink who's the biggest clown here. :hammerhead:
You are gonna deny the fact that Wilt was the best player in '67 finals ? Seriously ... :facepalm
And thrust millwad. He is as credible poster as one could be ...:rockon:[/QUOTE]
You're an idiot, and it's "trust" and not "thrust" and learn the difference between claiming and proclaiming.
I got a PM about Jlauber (Lazeruss) and everything besides him being dead was right, the guy even gave me his address and the name of his wife, something I didn't spread though.
And no one said that Wilt wasn't the best player in the '67 finals, what I said was that had massive help. He had 4 teammates who scored more than him that year in the finals and 4 teammates who averaged more than 19 points per game during the finals. And if your english wouldn't be equal with a pile of crap you'd understand that my point was that Wilt in fact didn't have little help like Jlauber always try to claim.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]
But, I wouldn't expect anything different from a KNOWN Wilt-basher. (and a closet Magic-basher.)[/QUOTE]
Oh, go **** yourself, you bastard.
You have no right to call out anyone for bashing players, you're the same pathetic fool who just signed up with a new alt account called "Houston" just to bash on Hakeem Olajuwon. Pathetic fool.
[QUOTE=dankok8]And please don't say Wilt played just as well in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]
I have covered this a million times.
Bellamy in 10 playoff H2H's
Reed in 11 (actually 17) playoff starts
An absolute PEAK Kareem in 11 H2H's.(whose scoring and efficiency he DRAMATICALLY reduced as well.)
Thurmond in 17 H2H's (and of course, just ask KAJ about his playoff H2H's with Nate.)
Russell in 49 (yes, 49 H2H games.)
And again, aside from '62, when he only played a total of 12 playoff games, seven of which were against Russell (and his RS numbers against Russell in '62 were 39.7 ppg on a .471 eFG%)...his numbers were nearly the same every post-season (with '69 being mostly affected by an incompetent coach, as well as Nate and Russell.)
Had he played the MANY panzies that Kareem, Hakeem, and Shaq faced throughout their playoff runs, and his numbers would have been much more elevated.
Of course, just look at KAJ's post-season career eFG%. It was .533, which is slightly ahead of Chamberlain's .522. BUT, he played 158 of his 237 playoff games (2/3's of his entire post-season career) in the 80's, and in post-seasons that shot eFG%'s of between .473 to .497 and averaged about .485 overall. In Wilt's 60's, the NBA shot eFG%'s of .402, .403, .411, .420, .429. .440, .424, .446, and .431 in his nine playoff seasons, and averaged .425 in that span. A STAGGERING difference of .060.
Incidently, in his four seasons IN the Wilt-era, KAJ's post-season eFG% was at .491. AND, how about this:[B] In his FIVE playoff series H2H's with Nate and Wilt from '71 thru '73, he averaged 25.8 ppg (697 points in 27 games) on a ...get this... [COLOR="DarkRed"].450 eFG%[/COLOR] (304-675 FG/FGA).[/B] Against the NBA in those three seasons, he averaged 32.2 ppg on a .568 eFG%. Just an unfathomable COLLAPSE in his scoring and efficiency.
And yet, that was basically what Chamberlain was battling for much of his post-season career, and certainly in his scoring prime and peak ('60 thru '68.)
[QUOTE=millwad]Oh, go **** yourself, you bastard.
You have no right to call out anyone for bashing players, you're the same pathetic fool who just signed up with a new alt account called "Houston" just to bash on Hakeem Olajuwon. Pathetic fool.[/QUOTE]
You are a complete tool. I have no idea who this "Houston" is, nor do I care. Gotta love it, whenever ANYONE here generally agrees with me here, they are my alt's. Julizaver, PHILA, Psileas, CavsFan, Helix, and the endless list that goes on...well, they must be my "alts."
GTFO...
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]You are a complete tool. I have no idea who this "Houston" is, nor do I care. Gotta love it, whenever ANYONE here generally agrees with me here, they are my alt's. Julizaver, PHILA, Psileas, CavsFan, Helix, and the endless list that goes on...well, they must be my "alts."
GTFO...[/QUOTE]
That is complete nonsense and you're to ashamed to admit it. You didn't even want to admit that Lazeruss was your new account after your "Jlauber"-account. Are we supposed to believe that someone would create a new account under the name "Houston" for the sole purpose to bash on Olajuwon with all your stupid bashing and lying. No one would do so, I have never seen people writing or using your arguments while bashing Olajuwon and considering that you have several accounts already and that the poster "Houston" used all your arguments it's more than obvious that the account belongs to you.
Julizaver - His english is garbage, he is not you.
CavaliersFTW - He has several times PM'd me about how retarded you are.
Phila and Psileas - Much better posters than you.
[B]Why this no-life, ignorant asshole lazeruss hasn't been banned yet? What a disgraceful poster, managed to ruin for everyone a thread with a great video of his favorite player :facepalm [/B]
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]It is yet another pure S**T advanced stat, and I just proved it to you. And pace is pace. The league wide pace in '62 was (an ESTIMATED) 126 (which, of course blows away Pauk/Montana's theory of 140-150...and this was by far, the highest in the decade.) You simply can't punish Wilt for ELEVATING his team's pace.
And again, it is purely an estimate. Why? If we were to just normalize for "pace" alone, then the average NBA team in '62, transported to 2014, would be scoring 87 ppg...or 13 ppg less than the average team in 2014. Again, it is pure POS stat.
But, I wouldn't expect anything different from a KNOWN Wilt-basher. (and a closet Magic-basher.)[/QUOTE]
Who's punishing Wilt? I'm just saying despite his huge stats his teams were middle of the pack offensively. Clearly his impact wasn't so great.
If you would have read my post above I said ORtg and DRtg are great for comparing teams [U]in the same league[/U]. Of course if you compare a 60's team to a modern team things get out of whack. The style of play, pace, skill level, coaching, level of physicality... all different then and today. You're making trivial statements in an attempt to expose me... it's not working. :lol
[QUOTE]I have covered this a million times.
Bellamy in 10 playoff H2H's
Reed in 11 (actually 17) playoff starts
An absolute PEAK Kareem in 11 H2H's.(whose scoring and efficiency he DRAMATICALLY reduced as well.)
Thurmond in 17 H2H's (and of course, just ask KAJ about his playoff H2H's with Nate.)
Russell in 49 (yes, 49 H2H games.)
And again, aside from '62, when he only played a total of 12 playoff games, seven of which were against Russell (and his RS numbers against Russell in '62 were 39.7 ppg on a .471 eFG%)...his numbers were nearly the same every post-season (with '69 being mostly affected by an incompetent coach, as well as Nate and Russell.)
Had he played the MANY panzies that Kareem, Hakeem, and Shaq faced throughout their playoff runs, and his numbers would have been much more elevated.
Of course, just look at KAJ's post-season career eFG%. It was .533, which is slightly ahead of Chamberlain's .522. BUT, he played 158 of his 237 playoff games (2/3's of his entire post-season career) in the 80's, and in post-seasons that shot eFG%'s of between .473 to .497 and averaged about .485 overall. In Wilt's 60's, the NBA shot eFG%'s of .402, .403, .411, .420, .429. .440, .424, .446, and .431 in his nine playoff seasons, and averaged .425 in that span. A STAGGERING difference of .060.
Incidently, in his four seasons IN the Wilt-era, KAJ's post-season eFG% was at .491. AND, how about this: In his FIVE playoff series H2H's with Nate and Wilt from '71 thru '73, he averaged 25.8 ppg (697 points in 27 games) on a ...get this... .450 eFG% (304-675 FG/FGA). Against the NBA in those three seasons, he averaged 32.2 ppg on a .568 eFG%. Just an unfathomable COLLAPSE in his scoring and efficiency.
And yet, that was basically what Chamberlain was battling for much of his post-season career, and certainly in his scoring prime and peak ('60 thru '68[/QUOTE]
If you did the same breakdown for Kareem and Russell you'd find they faced as many HOFers and as often as Wilt did... yet their numbers WENT UP in the playoffs! Please explain to me why.