Probably the best display of Wilt's scoring ability:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak[/url]
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Probably the best display of Wilt's scoring ability:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak[/url]
[QUOTE=PHILA]:facepalm
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[URL="http://books.google.com/books?id=aLkDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA43&dq=wilt+chamberlain+schayes&hl=en&ei=GUNQTdrHBIT68AaJtryCDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false"]Jet Magazine - Apr 7, 1966[/URL]
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Considering how few touches he received in the games due to the sagging defense, we must assume a number of his missed FG's were tip-in attempts in the congested paint. He averaged 30 boards for the series and a good chunk of them must have come on the offensive end.
Here is an example below (Chamberlain off. rebound + dunk) showing just how poor the Sixers shooting was. Wali barely hits the backboard on a 15 foot jumper.
18:33 mark
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEdiptkyYsY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEdiptkyYsY[/URL]
Also note another Chamberlain rebound & dunk at the 18:51 mark in the same video above from the '66 series. We can also note how the Celtics pressed full court to keep the ball out of his hands as much as possible and at the 17:20 mark off the opening jump ball how the defense was shifted to Wilt's (left) side of the floor, leaving Wali unguarded for a shot. We can also see a Bill Russell [I]"intangible"[/I] quality off the inbounds.
[I][B]"When I feel he is relaxed, I burst down on the break, and we murder him. But this works just once and two points do not win a ball game."[/B][/I]
Some have stated that Wilt was the main reason for the loss in '66, that the Sixers would have won had he statistically performed up to par. In the 1st half of G5, Coach Schayes noted that Chamberlain was the only player to shoot [B]25%[/B] or better from the field on his way to a 46 point night.
[URL="http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=uYxDAAAAIBAJ&sjid=k64MAAAAIBAJ&pg=1086,830822&dq"]Apr 13, 1966[/URL]
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[B]Game 1:[/B]
Sixers hit with the flu + 2 week layoff = 19 turnovers in a 19 point loss.
[I]Wilt Chamberlain did his work under the boards, taking 32 rebounds for the 76ers. But his mates couldn't get the ball into him often and he made only nine field goals in scoring 25 points.[/I]
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[B]Game 2:[/B]
[IMG]http://i53.tinypic.com/b6f3a9.png[/IMG]
[B]Game 3:[/B]
[I]Their defense was the barbed wire. Every time they needed a key basket, Wilt Chamberlain poured through the lane and got it for them. That was how the Philadelphia 76ers got back into contention in the Eastern Division playoffs with a 111-105 victory over the Boston Celtics Thursday night at Convention Hall.[/I]
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[B]Game 4:[/B] Chamberlain with the block at the end of regulation to force OT.
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[B]Game 5:[/B]
[I]Christian Science Monitor - Apr 14, 1966
Wilt took 34 shots, hitting on 19. But he was only eight for 25 with his free throws. Chamberlain scored 46 points, no small since Russell played him tight and with a maximum amount of contact. But Wilt could have gone to 63 with Bill Sharman's touch at the foul line. Boston's cornermen excelled, not only, but also on offense. John Havlicek played the full 48 minutes and scored 32 points. Tom Sanders probably had his best game of the series with 11 points and 16 rebounds.[/I][/QUOTE]
PHILA with a thread ending post.
I feel like people ignore context when talking about Wilt. Don't compare Wilt's numbers to Kareems in a season where Kareem wins a ring with the Bucks, and Wilt wins nothing.
I mean, a bad team can force feed a player all they want and produce inflated stats... but you won't win a ring with that strategy. A recent example would be Kobe post Shaq or even LeBron in Cleveland. Crazy stats because of high usage... but little team success to show for it.
Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't respect Wilt's numbers, but I just feel like people use statistics completely out of context sometimes, and it can be misleading.
[QUOTE=bdreason]I feel like people ignore context when talking about Wilt. Don't compare Wilt's numbers to Kareems in a season where Kareem wins a ring with the Bucks, and Wilt wins nothing.
I mean, a bad team can force feed a player all they want and produce inflated stats... but you won't win a ring with that strategy. A recent example would be Kobe post Shaq or even LeBron in Cleveland. Crazy stats because of high usage... but little team success to show for it.
Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't respect Wilt's numbers, but I just feel like people use statistics completely out of context sometimes, and it can be misleading.[/QUOTE]
I covered this earlier, but in any case...
First of all, I personally believe Kareem's 70-71 season, including the playoffs, as his greatest season. He led the NBA in scoring at 31.7 ppg, which was his second best season ever; he averaged 16.0 rpg, which was his third best season ever; and he shot .577 from the field. Now, he had several seasons in which he shot better than .577 (all but ONE in the defenseless 80's though), BUT, in relation to league average, his 70-71 season was his most efficient. That .577 came in a league that shot .449...or + .128 better than the rest of the league. His playoff numbers were not his best post-season numbers, but they were still exceptional. He averaged 26.6 ppg, 17.0 rpg, and shot .515...and all accomplsihed against Thurmond, Wilt, and Unseld. So, once again, he had a couple of better regular seasons, and he had a couple of better post-seasons, but when you combine the two, his 70-71 season was probably his best. And, of course, he not only won his only ring in the 60's that season, but he was MVP and FMVP, too.
Still, you would be hard-pressed to find another player who had an easier road to a ring than what Kareem's Bucks faced that season. They beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round. Then, they beat a 48-34 Laker team that was without BOTH West and Baylor (and a 34 year old Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery, battled Kareem to a statistical draw in that series.) And finally they swept a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.
That was it for Kareem in the 70's. He went to only one other Finals, and while he dominated for much of that series, he was outplayed by Cowens in the game seven on his home floor, and his Bucks were wiped out.
The rest of the decade, his team's under-achieved...plain-and-simple. And, while he generally played well, he had his share of flop jobs.
But, for anyone that wants to argue that Kareem was a actually a better scorer than Chamberlain, if ever he had an opportunity to display it, it would have come in his 75-76 season. That Laker team, even with Goodrich and Cazzie Russell, was the worst roster he had in his career. Now, keep in mind that in Kareem's 71-72 season, he averaged 44 mpg, with a career high 34.8 ppg, and on .574 shooting. All with a 63-19 team that had a scoring differential of +11.1 ppg. So now, playing with a more inferior team, you would have thought that Kareem would really have taken over. The exact OPPOSITE occurred. Kareem had one of his worst seasons of his career. He played 41 mpg, and averaged 27.7 ppg on .529 shooting. And this was from a 28 year old Kareem, and supposedly near his physical peak. Why? Why couldn't Kareem elevate his play, especially his scoring, when it was obvious that his 40-42 team needed him to? BTW, McAdoo averaged 31.1 ppg in that 75-76 season, and just the year before, in 74-75, he averaged 34.5 ppg. His team's were no more talented than Kareem's. How come he could do it, and Kareem couldn't?
Wilt proved that he could single-handedly carry inept rosters to within an eyelash of beating the greatest dynasty in major professional sports history, TWICE. And he carried as bad a roster as anyone was ever saddled with in his 63-64 season, to a Finals, as well.
But, Kareem, as great as he was, couldn't do it by himself. In fact, in the 70's, in the weakest decade in NBA history, Kareem couldn't even take exceptional rosters to titles, while even a Rick Barry could take a cast of "no names" to one.
As far as scoring is concerned there are definite qualities inherent in being an elite scorer. And there are definite areas where Kareem isn
[QUOTE=Pointguard]As far as scoring is concerned there are definite qualities inherent in being an elite scorer. And there are definite areas where Kareem isn
Wilt
[QUOTE=jlauber]Great post. In terms of pure and productive scoring, it was MJ and Wilt...and then a considerable drop-off.[/QUOTE]
Yes Wilt with his 22ppg and 46.5% FT% in the playoffs (you know, what actually matters) is the 2nd greatest scorer of alltime :rolleyes:
KAJ, Hakeem and Shaq > Wilt as a scorer. deal with it
[QUOTE=Miller for 3]Yes Wilt with his 22ppg and 46.5% FT% in the playoffs (you know, what actually matters) is the 2nd greatest scorer of alltime :rolleyes:
KAJ, Hakeem and Shaq > Wilt as a scorer. deal with it[/QUOTE]
Wilt was a 33 ppg, 26 rpg, .510 (in leagues that shot about .430) SCORER in his first SEVEN seasons...covering his first SIX playoffs. Those were his "scoring seasons" you idiot.
He had FOUR post-seasons of 33.2, 34.7, 35.0, and 37.0
He had a post-season series of 38.6 ppg on .559 shooting.
He had FOUR 30+ ppg post-season series against RUSSELL, including a 30 ppg, 31 rpg seven game series in '65.
Even in his first NINE seasons, he was averaging 29.3 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 4.8 apg, and shooting .518 (in leagues that shot about .435.)
He also had FOUR 50+ point games in the playoffs, including a 56-35 game five, in a best-of-five series; and a 50-35 in a must-win game five against Russell in the '60 ECF's.
He also had a 46-34 game five in a must-win game in the '66 ECF's, and again, against Russell.
He had FOUR 40-30 games just against Russell alone. Find me ONE other player who scored 40 points, and with 30 rebounds in a post-season game...much less against the quality defender of Russell's caliber (and with the Celtics SWARMING Wilt.)
He had a 45 point, 20-27 shooting, 27 rebound game six in a "must-win" game in the '70 Finals...in a series in which he averaged 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and shot .625...and all while playing just FOUR MONTHS after major knee surgery.
Find me any other player who ever had ONE 29-27 post-season...and yet Wilt averaged that for EIGHT straight post-seasons.
How CLUTCH was Chamberlain?
In his NINE game seven's... 24.4 ppg, 26.3 rpg, and a mind-numbing .626 from the field (which is the highest FG% in game seven's by an all-time great.)
Here are some other examples...
[QUOTE]1960 Game 3 vs. Nationals (best of 3 series at the time): 53 points in a 20 point win.
1962 Game 5 vs. Nationals: 56 points, 35 rebounds in a 17 point win.
1962 Game 6 vs Celtics: 32 points in a 10 point win
1962 Game 7 vs Celtics: 22 points, 21 rebounds in a 2 point loss
1964 Game 5 vs. Hawks: 50 points in a 24 point win.
1964 Game 7 vs. Hawks: 39 points, 26 rebounds, 12 blocks in a 10 point win.
1965 Game 6 vs. Celtics: 30 points, 26 rebounds in a 6 point win
1965 Game 7 vs. Celtics: 30 points, 32 rebounds in a 1 point loss
1966 Game 5 vs. Celtics: 46 points, 34 rebounds in an 8 point loss
1967 Game 2 vs. Royals: 37 points, 27 rebounds, 11 assists in a 21 point win.
1967 Game 3 vs. Royals: 16 points, 30 rebounds, 19 assists in a 15 point win.
1967 Game 1 vs. Celtics: 24 points, 32 rebounds, 13 assists, 12 blocks in a 15 point win.
1967 Game 3 vs. Celtics: 20 points, 41 rebounds, 9 assists in an 11 point win.
1967 Game 5 vs. Celtics: 29 points, 36 rebounds, 13 assists in a 24 point win.
1968 Game 6 vs. Knicks: 25 points, 27 rebounds in an 18 point win. Little known fact is that Chamberlain led BOTH TEAMS in points, rebounds, and assists for the entire series, whilst nursing an assortment of injuries, including his annual shin splints. This against two Hall Of Fame centers Walt Bellamy & Willis Reed. Apparently Willis used to tremble at the mere sight of Luke Jackson in the MSG tunnel pre-game.
1968 Game 7 vs Celtics: 14 points, 34 rebounds in a 4 point loss (This despite two touches in the entire 4th quarter, the smartest move Russell has ever made in his career switching himself over to guard Chet).
1969 Game 7 vs. Celtics: 18 points, 27 rebounds in a 2 point loss (Head coach leaves him on the bench due to a personal grudge.)
1970 Game 5 vs. Suns: 36 points, 14 rebounds in a 17 point win
1970 Game 7 vs. Suns: 30 points, 27 rebounds, 11 blocks in a 35 point win (helped lead Lakers back from 1-3 deficit)
1970 Game 6 vs. Knicks: 45 points, 27 rebounds in a 22 point win
1970 Game 7 vs. Knicks: 21 points, 24 rebounds in a 14 point loss
(Understand that he should have not even been playing in the 1969-70 season after his injury, but was able to rehab his knee in time with his workouts in volleyball, a sport he would later become a Hall Of Famer in as well.)
1971 Game 7 vs. Bulls: 25 points, 18 rebounds in an 11 point win
1971 Game 5 vs. Bucks: 23 points, 12 rebounds, 6 blocks in an 18 point loss without Elgin Baylor or Jerry West. (Alcindor in this game had 20 points, 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks).
1973 Game 7 vs. Bulls: 21 points, 28 rebounds in a 3 point win (Bulls had the ball and a one point lead with 30 or so seconds left in the 4th. Norm Van Lier goes up for the shot only to have it rejected by the "big choker" Wilt Chamberlain. Chamberlain blocked Van Lier's shot right to Gail Goodrich down court for the go ahead basket. Is there any mention of this clutch defensive play from Chamberlain in Bill Simmons "Book Of Basketball"?
1973 Game 5 vs. Knicks: 23 points, 21 rebounds in a 9 point loss (a hobbled Jerry West finished with 12 points)
Yep...Wilt was a "choker" and a "failure."
Incidently, you can add game five of the '60 ECF's (Philadelphia was down 3-1, so it was a must-win game), and he responded with a 50-35 game against Russell in a 128-107 win. Keep in mind that game was in his rookie season, and he faced a Celtic team with SEVEN HOFers.
And, IMHO, his greatest effort came against Kareem in game six of the WCF's. He held Kareem to 16-37 shooting, while going 8-12 himself, and scoring 22 points with 24 rebounds. And, he absolutely took over the game in the 4th quarter, and led LA back from a 10 point deficit to a clinching four point win. He also blocked 11 shots in that game, and five of them were Kareem's sky-hooks.
Or Wilt, with two badly injured wrists dominating the clinching game five win the Finals, with a 24 point, 10-14 shooting, 29 rebound (the ENTIRE Knick team had 39 BTW), and 10 block game.
[/QUOTE]
I'll generally agree with kblaze's post the most. I believe Wilt would shoot better than 60% for his whole career had he decided to leave aside his finesse moves and get better team results, although Kareem would have the obvious advantage in FT shooting. Having said that:
[QUOTE]And based on offensive skillset this shouldn't be a debate.[/QUOTE]
If you define skillset as the main "go to" move and maybe dribbling in traffic, then maybe. But going beyond this, sorry, but I just don't see why there's not a debate on offensive skillset. You are among the ones who state they are "unimpressed" by Wilt's skillset after viewing him making fade-aways, jump shots, generally tough shots that not many big men can make (speaking of this, here's a new clip of college footage, apart from the one I posted some time ago [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB43A-ODuLc)[/url]. Well, I ask you, what makes you (I suppose) impressed by Kareem's moves apart from his main one? It seems like every time some people (including most Wilt naysayers) see Kareem make some good finesse move, they act as if they saw some super rare acrobatic Jordan move or a super quick Dream Shake. Hell, it sometimes even makes news that Kareem took and made jump shots, since most people are too used on seeing him only taking sky-hooks. I've seen the same people claim that Wilt was bothered when double-teammed, but I don't remember Kareem not being at least equally bothered when he didn't have the space to launch a sky-hook, either. I remember having seen a couple of plays when he had to take a few tougher than average jump-shots and missed badly (airballing). Some times he'd make a few good moves that people view as incredible, and other times he'd just fail.
I've never argued against Kareem being among the most skilled big men ever (hell, he's among my own favorite players ever, and I've maintained that he had the GOAT overall basketball career ever - I know that people including my fellow Wilt fan Jlauber may disagree with this), but I find it weird that people going against Wilt's skills to take shots speak that highly of Kareem's own ones, as if he's on Dirk's or prime Hakeem's level at this field. I would agree if you compared Wilt to Dirk (then again, I'll obviously take Wilt overall), but Wilt to Kareem, sorry, if I'm not supposed to be that impressed with prime Wilt, I don't see why I should be with Kareem.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I agree 100%. Wilt's scoring numbers(particularly early 60's) were largely a product of their era. I don't know why the 39.5 FGA and 17 FTA aren't brought up every time the 50.4 ppg are. Not to mention the 48.5 mpg which included him playing every minute of 40, even 50 point blowouts. And then dropping to 35 ppg on Iverson-esque TS% in the playoffs.
Along with the pace of the game rapidly slowing, the lane widening and starting centers(rotation players getting bigger), his scoring numbers started coming down to earth, and they always did in the playoffs.
Not to mention that in his his 2 high scoring seasons(post lane-widening), he averaged 34.7 ppg on 51 FG%/51.3 TS% and 33.5 ppg on 54 FG%/54.7 TS%.
Kareem averaged 34.8 ppg on 57.4 FG%/60.3 TS% in 1972 and he said himself that he was better later which showed how deceiving stats are.
Another important point is how defensive strategies changed. Kareem mentioned in a '77 interview that he was pretty much played one on one during his first few years in Milwaukee, but that he was constantly doubled and tripled by the late 70's.
In most of the Wilt footage available, he seems to face far more single coverage than double teams, and I've heard many from that era mention that double teaming was rare.
By the time Kareem got stronger and improved his repertoire with the left hand sky hook and turnaround, he had no real weakness offensively, which makes him the greatest offensive center ever, imo.
His greater team success as a high scorer and Kareem's edge as far as go to moves and counters seals it for me.
From the footage I've seen, I don't see their footwork or touch as comparable, and Wilt's strength advantage isn't that big of a factor for me because he didn't seem to use it like a true power player. Part of that may have been that his lower body strength wasn't as great as people might think(just speculation, but it makes sense) and the fact that he looked awkward dribbling the ball while backing in. As well as Wilt's own claim that he didn't want to overpower people and wanted to prove he was skilled.[/QUOTE]
I came here to post something... but-
whenever ShaqAttack posts,
he'd already summed up whatever it was I had to say, plus much much more.
My contribution therefore shall be in the form of some REP.
[QUOTE=Psileas]I'll generally agree with kblaze's post the most. I believe Wilt would shoot better than 60% for his whole career had he decided to leave aside his finesse moves and get better team results, although Kareem would have the obvious advantage in FT shooting. Having said that:
If you define skillset as the main "go to" move and maybe dribbling in traffic, then maybe. But going beyond this, sorry, but I just don't see why there's not a debate on offensive skillset. You are among the ones who state they are "unimpressed" by Wilt's skillset after viewing him making fade-aways, jump shots, generally tough shots that not many big men can make (speaking of this, here's a new clip of college footage, apart from the one I posted some time ago [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB43A-ODuLc)[/url]. Well, I ask you, what makes you (I suppose) impressed by Kareem's moves apart from his main one? It seems like every time some people (including most Wilt naysayers) see Kareem make some good finesse move, they act as if they saw some super rare acrobatic Jordan move or a super quick Dream Shake. Hell, it sometimes even makes news that Kareem took and made jump shots, since most people are too used on seeing him only taking sky-hooks. I've seen the same people claim that Wilt was bothered when double-teammed, but I don't remember Kareem not being at least equally bothered when he didn't have the space to launch a sky-hook, either. I remember having seen a couple of plays when he had to take a few tougher than average jump-shots and missed badly (airballing). Some times he'd make a few good moves that people view as incredible, and other times he'd just fail.
I've never argued against Kareem being among the most skilled big men ever (hell, he's among my own favorite players ever, and I've maintained that he had the GOAT overall basketball career ever - I know that people including my fellow Wilt fan Jlauber may disagree with this), but I find it weird that people going against Wilt's skills to take shots speak that highly of Kareem's own ones, as if he's on Dirk's or prime Hakeem's level at this field. I would agree if you compared Wilt to Dirk (then again, I'll obviously take Wilt overall), but Wilt to Kareem, sorry, if I'm not supposed to be that impressed with prime Wilt, I don't see why I should be with Kareem.[/QUOTE]
First of all, that video footage of Chamberlain in the NCAA's is pure GOLD. He was easily the most skilled, fastest, athletic player on the floor. Your 9 block total might be right, but it sure seemed like more. And he challenged almost EVERY shot. Truly a ONE-MAN team. In the Finals that season he was QUAD-TEAMED, and, as usual, his pathetic teammates couldn't hit the garage door with a beach ball. Of course, we both know that Kansas didn't win any games when Wilt was out either.
And, as usual, he was hitting a variety of shots from up to 15 ft (as well as making two FT's in row....and looking very comfortable in doing so.) If only we had some of his truly monumental NBA games. Even one of his 271 40+ point games. And what I would give to see one of his 118 50+ point games, or one of his 32 60+ point games (especially the one in which he shot 29-35.)
As for the rest of your post. I have Kareem at #5 on my all-time list. And, I was a HUGE Alcindor fan when he was at UCLA (and he was easily the greatest college player of all-time BTW.) BUT, I just can't OVER-RATE the man, as so many other's do. Clearly though, is he is way ahead of Hakeem. A 38 year old Kareem dominated a 23 year old Hakeem. Can you imagine how bad it would have been had it been the other way around?
He won TWO scoring titles...in 20 seasons. He won ONE RPG title. And he won ONE FG% title...and HALF of his career was played in the weak 70's (AFTER Wilt "retired" in '73.) Wilt had THREE seasons in which he led the NBA in scoring, rebounding, and FG%...at the SAME TIME.
And, as I have said many times, if Kareem were truly a greater scorer than Chamberlain, how come he couldn't ELEVATE his scoring with average rosters in '75 and '76? And, as we know, McAdoo, with equal rosters, was way ahead of Kareem in scoring in both of those seasons.
That also applied to Hakeem, BTW. I have continually read the idiotic posts by Dickwad on just how poor Hakeem's rosters were. Ok, where were his 30-35 ppg seasons then? He simply couldn't do it. Nor could he get his team's out of the first round in over half of his post-season career. His best post-season scoring and rebounding series came in a four game FIRST ROUND blowout loss.
Secondly, Kareem faced Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, and many of the same centers that a PRIME Wilt battled. Where were Kareem's HUGE games against those guys? Wilt had FAR greater higher scoring (and more efficient games) against those same guys. Hell, a Wilt in '69, when he was no longer interested in scoring, hung TWO 60+ point games on two centers that Kareem would face the very next year. Where were Kareem's 60+ point games?
Skillset? Those that argue that Kareem was more skilled are deluding themselves. Just looking at the more-and-more footage which is now showing up on YouTube, and Wilt had a FAR greater VARIETY of moves and shots.
And you can't argue the obvious, either. Wilt was much stronger, faster, and far more athletic (and in better shape...even at 11 years older...he was running Kareem into the ground in the 4th quarter of the clinching game six win in the '72 WCF's.)
So, no, Kareem was NOT in Wilt's class as either a scorer, or a shooter (despite his advantage at the line...and of course, Wilt MADE nearly 100 MORE FTs per season played.) Wilt was not only winning scoring titles, he was winning them by 19 ppg (and even 11 ppg.) He was not only winning FG% titles, he was winning them by margins as much as .162 (and .157), and outshooting leagues by as much as .271 (and .244.)
The real tragedy, of course, was that we never got to a PRIME Chamberlain go H2H against a PRIME Kareem. Judging by everything that is out there, Wilt would easily have outscored, and outshot Kareem (outshooting him would be a given BTW.) A PRIME Chamberlain could hang 40+ games on a PRIME Thurmond (and seasons of .562 shooting); 50+ games on Reed; 60+ games on a PRIME Bellamy. He could also pour in 66 on 29-35 shooting against Jim Fox, whom Kareem would face often, even at well past his peak. He even had a 31-32 game on 6-11 HOFer Lanier in his 71-72 season...in a league in which he hardly shot the ball. Where are ANY of those games by Kareem?
And CLUTCH? I have already provided MANY examples of Wilt's BIG-TIME games. He was arguably the greatest all-around game-seven player of all-time (24.4 ppg, 26.3 rpg, and on .626 shooting.) Kareem? SEVERAL post-season meltdowns, including FOUR in which he failed to even shoot the league average. He had series in which he was reduced to as low as .405 shooting and .428 shooting against Thurmond. He had a series in which he shot .457, and only .414 over the last four games (and his sky-hook being smacked all over the gym by a 35 year old Wilt.) He had two series in which Moses Malone just pounded him. He had a series in the '84 Finals in which he shot .481 (in a league that shot .492) and in which Magic was criticized (and all Magic did was average 18 ppg, 8 rpg ...leading LA, 13 apg, and shooting .560 from the field.) He had a game seven where 6-9 Dave Cowens outplayed him in EVERY facet of the game. He had a critical game five of 7-25 shooting in the '84 Finals. He had a Finals of 13 ppg, 4 rpg, and .414 shooting. He had a game seven of four points, 3 rebs, and on 2-7 shooting (along with 5 PF's.) I could go on...but, clearly, Kareem was not as clutch as so many make him out to be.
Not only that, but Kareem had loaded rosters in the late 70's, and in the weakest leagues in NBA history, that were blown out in the early rounds. He had TWO 60+ win teams go down in flames in that decade (one to a 47-35 team...in a series in which he shot .428.) He had another 59 win team lose to an underdog Celtic team in the Finals (and once again, in a game seven blowout loss on his HOME court, Kareem was easily outplayed by a Cowens who was saddled with five fouls going into the 4th quarter.) He had TWO teams that he couldn't even get into the playoffs. He had a team with the best record in the league get SWEPT.
So, Kareem over Wilt? I just don't see it.
[QUOTE=Psileas]I'll generally agree with kblaze's post the most. I believe Wilt would shoot better than 60% for his whole career had he decided to leave aside his finesse moves and get better team results, although Kareem would have the obvious advantage in FT shooting. Having said that:
If you define skillset as the main "go to" move and maybe dribbling in traffic, then maybe. But going beyond this, sorry, but I just don't see why there's not a debate on offensive skillset. You are among the ones who state they are "unimpressed" by Wilt's skillset after viewing him making fade-aways, jump shots, generally tough shots that not many big men can make (speaking of this, here's a new clip of college footage, apart from the one I posted some time ago [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB43A-ODuLc)[/url]. Well, I ask you, what makes you (I suppose) impressed by Kareem's moves apart from his main one? It seems like every time some people (including most Wilt naysayers) see Kareem make some good finesse move, they act as if they saw some super rare acrobatic Jordan move or a super quick Dream Shake. Hell, it sometimes even makes news that Kareem took and made jump shots, since most people are too used on seeing him only taking sky-hooks. I've seen the same people claim that Wilt was bothered when double-teammed, but I don't remember Kareem not being at least equally bothered when he didn't have the space to launch a sky-hook, either. I remember having seen a couple of plays when he had to take a few tougher than average jump-shots and missed badly (airballing). Some times he'd make a few good moves that people view as incredible, and other times he'd just fail.
I've never argued against Kareem being among the most skilled big men ever (hell, he's among my own favorite players ever, and I've maintained that he had the GOAT overall basketball career ever - I know that people including my fellow Wilt fan Jlauber may disagree with this), but I find it weird that people going against Wilt's skills to take shots speak that highly of Kareem's own ones, as if he's on Dirk's or prime Hakeem's level at this field. I would agree if you compared Wilt to Dirk (then again, I'll obviously take Wilt overall), but Wilt to Kareem, sorry, if I'm not supposed to be that impressed with prime Wilt, I don't see why I should be with Kareem.[/QUOTE]
That footage was the closest I seen to the film I saw when Wilt scored 50+ points. There are several films now that show Wilt outrun fast-breaks - it happens twice in that film (1:10 and 2:40). His speed and timing in a center you rarely ever see. That pass at 1:40 is sick!
There is an intentional shadow on Wilt. It's funny how there are only a couple of references to Wilt's bank shot and jump shot touch as it might be one of the most unstoppable shots ever. Far above any center's at that time.
[QUOTE=jlauber] Secondly, Kareem faced Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, and many of the same centers that a PRIME Wilt battled. Where were Kareem's HUGE games against those guys? Wilt had FAR greater higher scoring (and more efficient games) against those same guys. Hell, a Wilt in '69, when he was no longer interested in scoring, hung TWO 60+ point games on two centers that Kareem would face the very next year. Where were Kareem's 60+ point games? [/quote]
Kareem made that statement about '77 being his best year scoring year (when he averaged 8 points less per game) because he knew those guys shut him down when when he was a much more prolific scorer. Kareem was very sensitive to how he was compared to Wilt. He was very sensitive about the scoring thing in general. I remember he went to league office to campaign for shorter seasons to protect his scoring record. [quote]
Skillset? Those that argue that Kareem was more skilled are deluding themselves. Just looking at the more-and-more footage which is now showing up on YouTube, and Wilt had a FAR greater VARIETY of moves and shots.
And you can't argue the obvious, either. Wilt was much stronger, faster, and far more athletic (and in better shape...even at 11 years older...he was running Kareem into the ground in the 4th quarter of the clinching game six win in the '72 WCF's.)
So, no, Kareem was NOT in Wilt's class as either a scorer, or a shooter (despite his advantage at the line...and of course, Wilt MADE nearly 100 MORE FTs per season played.) Wilt was not only winning scoring titles, he was winning them by 19 ppg (and even 11 ppg.) He was not only winning FG% titles, he was winning them by margins as much as .162 (and .157), and outshooting leagues by as much as .271 (and .244.)
And CLUTCH? I have already provided MANY examples of Wilt's BIG-TIME games. He was arguably the greatest all-around game-seven player of all-time (24.4 ppg, 26.3 rpg, and on .626 shooting.) Kareem? SEVERAL post-season meltdowns, including FOUR in which he failed to even shoot the league average. He had series in which he was reduced to as low as .405 shooting and .428 shooting against Thurmond. He had a series in which he shot .457, and only .414 over the last four games (and his sky-hook being smacked all over the gym by a 35 year old Wilt.) He had two series in which Moses Malone just pounded him. He had a series in the '84 Finals in which he shot .481 (in a league that shot .492) and in which Magic was criticized (and all Magic did was average 18 ppg, 8 rpg ...leading LA, 13 apg, and shooting .560 from the field.) He had a game seven where 6-9 Dave Cowens outplayed him in EVERY facet of the game. He had a critical game five of 7-25 shooting in the '84 Finals. He had a Finals of 13 ppg, 4 rpg, and .414 shooting. He had a game seven of four points, 3 rebs, and on 2-7 shooting (along with 5 PF's.) I could go on...but, clearly, Kareem was not as clutch as so many make him out to be.
Not only that, but Kareem had loaded rosters in the late 70's, and in the weakest leagues in NBA history, that were blown out in the early rounds. He had TWO 60+ win teams go down in flames in that decade (one to a 47-35 team...in a series in which he shot .428.) He had another 59 win team lose to an underdog Celtic team in the Finals (and once again, in a game seven blowout loss on his HOME court, Kareem was easily outplayed by a Cowens who was saddled with five fouls going into the 4th quarter.) He had TWO teams that he couldn't even get into the playoffs. He had a team with the best record in the league get SWEPT.
So, Kareem over Wilt? I just don't see it.[/QUOTE]
Whoa, JL is on a role once again. My points were supplemented here and I don't think it possible to do it better than you did JL. I will add on the most basic level Kareem never had the energy to be at Wilt's level. At another basic level was mindset. KAJ just wasn't a guy that would lead the league in scoring for four or five years. Lastly, he didn't have the natural know how either. At the basic core (Mindset, Physicality, Knowhow and energy) KAJ's go to move isn't going to trump all of that.