Was Scottie Pippen at least once robbed for Defensive Player of the Year?

[QUOTE=AngelEyes]Payton should be on the bottom of that list and no way, as good as he was, should Sidney Moncrief be higher than Jordan. Jordan could take over a game on defense in a way Sidney Moncrief just couldn't. Moncrief was a nuisance on defense but Jordan could eliminate your best scorer and create havoc throughout the game.[/QUOTE]

I always thought Jordan/Moncrief were interchangable.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]You're not getting my point. Media has never picked another PG in NBA history. We've seen time and time again how they favor bigmen. The fact that Payton won DPOY in the ultimate prime of NBA centers (90's) speaks VOLUMES of just how dominant his D was. You also seem to be valuing defensive versatility over defensive impact. Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler, Serge Ibaka can't guard any position outside of 4-5 but that doesn't mean Iguodala is a better defender than them right?

Same idea. Payton may have been limited to guarding 1's and 2's but he was better at what he did guard than Jordan/Pippen.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure if you were watching the NBA back then but it helped that Payton and George Karl had big mouths and shamelessly campaigned for Payton to win the DPOY award. I found it ridiculous to pander to the media the way they did but it worked. That same year they also made a big deal to the media about Jason Kidd being a starter over Payton at the all-star game. It was ridiculous. Karl was such a whiner back then.

Then Karl Malone and the Jazz stepped it up a year later and campaigned for the MVP award which worked as well.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]Agree to disagree :confusedshrug: .

My top 5 perimeter defenders of all time IN MY OPINION

1. Gary Payton
2. Scottie Pippen
3. Sidney Moncrief
4. Michael Jordan
5. Dennis Johnson[/QUOTE]

Dennis Rodman was every bit the perimeter defender that Gary Payton was, this from a guy who could efficiently guard power fowards. His teammate, Joe Dumars, would also belong on a list like this. Pippen and Jordan remain the best and most impactful, as pure perimeter defenders I don't think anyone is in their class.

Yes, Pippen should've won DPoY in 1995. That's his best case and the only year I'd give him the award.

As for the Payton debate, tell me if this makes sense or not.

[b]Payton said he had a better defensive season in 1995 than he did in 1996 which is the year he won the award.[/b] He said he gambled more than usual in 1996 which resulted in him leading the league in steals, got a few GW defensive plays like a steal on Jordan and he got more national coverage as well as campaigned for the award.

Payton in 1995 got 2 votes for DPoY. Payton in 1996 got 56 votes for DPoY.

Is this logical or not? How does he get only 2 votes in a year where he played better defense according to himself? Does it not show how much media values stuff like steals and how much national coverage can influence an award?

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]I always thought Jordan/Moncrief were interchangable.[/QUOTE]

They're not. Moncrief could stick to a guy like Payton, but he couldn't disrupt and entire offense and takeover a game like Jordan could on the defensive end.

[QUOTE=hitmanyr2k]I'm not sure if you were watching the NBA back then but it helped that Payton and George Karl had big mouths and shamelessly campaigned for Payton to win the DPOY award. I found it ridiculous to pander to the media the way they did but it worked. That same year they also made a big deal to the media about Jason Kidd being a starter over Payton at the all-star game. It was ridiculous. Karl was such a whiner back then.

Then Karl Malone and the Jazz stepped it up a year later and campaigned for the MVP award which worked as well.[/QUOTE]

The first team I watched and was a pseudo fan of before becoming a Clippers diehard in 98-99 was the Sonics. I was a huge Gary Payton fan. I was obviously young at the time though so I won't pretend to have experienced the Sonics on a mature, analytic level I do now when I watch footage/classic games etc.

So the answer is yes I was watching but may not have perceived things clearly or well. I didn't remember the campaigning you're talking about and that indeed is shameful. When I rank Payton at the top it has to do with footage I watch in comparison to what I saw of Pippen. I have often said they are pretty much equals and neck and neck. What people will NOT be able to convince me of though is that Payton has no case for the top spot. Maybe you don't agree he is the best perimeter defender ever but don't tell me he has no case (Angeleyes).

[QUOTE=NugzHeat3]Yes, Pippen should've won DPoY in 1995. That's his best case and the only year I'd give him the award.

As for the Payton debate, tell me if this makes sense or not.

[b]Payton said he had a better defensive season in 1995 than he did in 1996 which is the year he won the award.[/b] He said he gambled more than usual in 1996 which resulted in him leading the league in steals, got a few GW defensive plays like a steal on Jordan and he got more national coverage as well as campaigned for the award.

Payton in 1995 got 2 votes for DPoY. Payton in 1996 got 56 votes for DPoY.

Is this logical or not? How does he get only 2 votes in a year where he played better defense according to himself? Does it not show how much media values stuff like steals and how much national coverage can influence an award?[/QUOTE]

Players have said a lot of things that aren't accurate. Not saying you're wrong at all because you know quite a bit but I can't say how many times I've seen players say something like this and it's not accurate. Players all the time say crap like "I'm in the best shape of my life" when they clearly aren't etc.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]The first team I watched and was a pseudo fan of before becoming a Clippers diehard in 98-99 was the Sonics. I was a huge Gary Payton fan. I was obviously young at the time though so I won't pretend to have experienced the Sonics on a mature, analytic level I do now when I watch footage/classic games etc.

So the answer is yes I was watching but may not have perceived things clearly or well. I didn't remember the campaigning you're talking about and that indeed is shameful. When I rank Payton at the top it has to do with footage I watch in comparison to what I saw of Pippen. I have often said they are pretty much equals and neck and neck. What people will NOT be able to convince me of though is that Payton has no case for the top spot. Maybe you don't agree he is the best perimeter defender ever but don't tell me he has no case (Angeleyes).[/QUOTE]

I don't see any logical case for him when the two guys I place above him at all of his instincts and a hell of a lot more physical ability which they utilized very well on defense. With the way the game was called back then Pippen absolutely utilized it to his fullest. He was the most suffocating, versatile, impactful, etc. defender int he game. This was back when you could actually touch a player and handcheck him throughout a game and no one did this as well as Pippen, and Jordan was right there with Pippen. They were both heavier, taller, more more athletically gifted and had all the instincts of a Gary Payton or Joe Dumars.

Why would he say something that's working against his case to win and just showing the absurd criteria the writers use?

The most logical thing in that situation would be to say that was his best defensive season.

Here is the quote:
[QUOTE]
Payton said, overall, he had a better defensive season last season. This season, he conceded, the difference was leading the league in steals.

"I didn't come into the season looking to lead the league in steals," Payton said. "But I got off to a good start, and got the lead early. About two months into the year, I decided it was going to happen. I led the league in steals because I went for more steals."
[/QUOTE]
[url]http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19960507&slug=2327993[/url]

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]The first team I watched and was a pseudo fan of before becoming a Clippers diehard in 98-99 was the Sonics. I was a huge Gary Payton fan. I was obviously young at the time though so I won't pretend to have experienced the Sonics on a mature, analytic level I do now when I watch footage/classic games etc.

So the answer is yes I was watching but may not have perceived things clearly or well. I didn't remember the campaigning you're talking about and that indeed is shameful. When I rank Payton at the top it has to do with footage I watch in comparison to what I saw of Pippen. I have often said they are pretty much equals and neck and neck. What people will NOT be able to convince me of though is that Payton has no case for the top spot. Maybe you don't agree he is the best perimeter defender ever but don't tell me he has no case (Angeleyes).[/QUOTE]

Payton was better at nothing on defense than Pippen and Jordan, was much smaller than either one, had a lot less physical ability, had less versatility and I'm expected to believe Payton was greater? It doesn't make any sense and is supported by nothing. The defense of Pippen and Jordan, along with Jordan's offensive dominance were the key components to the Bulls championship run. Whenever their shots weren't falling they could always rely on their defense because it would always be there.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]The first team I watched and was a pseudo fan of before becoming a Clippers diehard in 98-99 was the Sonics. I was a huge Gary Payton fan. I was obviously young at the time though so I won't pretend to have experienced the Sonics on a mature, analytic level I do now when I watch footage/classic games etc.

So the answer is yes I was watching but may not have perceived things clearly or well. I didn't remember the campaigning you're talking about and that indeed is shameful. When I rank Payton at the top it has to do with footage I watch in comparison to what I saw of Pippen. I have often said they are pretty much equals and neck and neck. What people will NOT be able to convince me of though is that Payton has no case for the top spot. Maybe you don't agree he is the best perimeter defender ever but don't tell me he has no case (Angeleyes).[/QUOTE]

You're basing this off of old footage of Payton and Pippen when Pippen was doing they same things except on a greater variety of players with greater team results. He's probably the best defender at the point guard position I've ever seen (back when point guards were allowed to defend) but I don't see him having a logical case over Pippen/Jordan.

[B]He was Robbed when they Gave it To Mutombo...I Think It was 1995-96 When He hasd the Highest Defensive Rating as a SF and The Rest where PFs and Cs with Hight Defensive Ratings.

Yes he Was Robbed that Year[/B]

He had very valid cases in '94 and '95. I always felt got robbed of MVP in '94.

[QUOTE=D.J.]He had very valid cases in '94 and '95. [B]I always felt got robbed of MVP in '94.[/B][/QUOTE]

Over Olajuwon? :facepalm

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]Over Olajuwon? :facepalm[/QUOTE]



Why not? Stats aren't everything. He took a Jordan-less team with Pete Myers starting at the 2 to 55 wins. Also remember the Bulls went 4-6 in the 10 games Pip missed. Give them an extra 3 wins with him playing and the Bulls are the #1 seed. People expected Houston to be up there. They won 55 games the prior year and were 1 win from the WCF. No one expected the Bulls to win 55 games that year or be 1 win from the ECF.