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[QUOTE=millwad]Wilt's FT-shooting in game 7 also cost both Wilt and West one ring, he went 4-13 from the FT-line in that game 7 and they only lost with 2 points.
It's a shame that West's 43-13-12 game didn't give him his first ring, GOAT performance.[/QUOTE]
Anyone else see where this is going? Goodbye on-topic postings.
[QUOTE]playoff MVP[/QUOTE]
This should have been the award introduced by the league instead of FMVP. Interesting project, not so much for the winners as much as for the potential discussion. I imagine after '67 Wilt, Russell may sweep the awards from '57-'66, with a Pettit cameo in '58.
[QUOTE=fpliii]regarding Magic, as I noted we completed as much as we could based on the ProQuest database...here's what we have:
[url]http://gorba77.w.interia.pl/01NBA/07bonus/GameLogsJohnson.xls[/url]
as for Bird, e-mail me what you have at [email]fpliii@stanford.edu[/email] (note the 3 i's) and I'll see what I can do; put "ISH:" in the subject so it doesn't get filtered to spam[/QUOTE]
Yeah, just got through filling in the gaps for Magic. His is completed. :cheers:
They're all in one Excel file, just different pages. I'll e-mail it to you shortly.
[QUOTE=Owl][QUOTE=millwad]Wilt's FT-shooting in game 7 also cost both Wilt and West one ring, he went 4-13 from the FT-line in that game 7 and they only lost with 2 points.
It's a shame that West's 43-13-12 game didn't give him his first ring, GOAT performance.[/QUOTE]
Anyone else see where this is going? Goodbye on-topic postings.[/QUOTE]
If it does end up going there, then I'm done with this topic and will not be participating in this any further.
[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]If it does end up going there, then I'm done with this topic and will not be participating in this any further.[/QUOTE]
I agree entirely.
REQUEST TO EVERYBODY: Please do not discuss Wilt-Russell comparisons at all in this thread. That debate will not be appropriate until we get to 1964 (which isn't going to happen if we can't stay on-topic). Wilt should not be mentioned at all in this thread, just as Russell should not be mentioned at all in the next thread (again, if we get there).
I'm not trying to be an asshole, but if you don't want to discuss this topic, start another thread (if you need information PM me, but try to keep off-topic discussion out of this thread).
Thanks.
[QUOTE=fpliii]regarding Magic, as I noted we completed as much as we could based on the ProQuest database...here's what we have:
[url]http://gorba77.w.interia.pl/01NBA/07bonus/GameLogsJohnson.xls[/url]
as for Bird, e-mail me what you have at [email]fpliii@stanford.edu[/email] (note the 3 i's) and I'll see what I can do; put "ISH:" in the subject so it doesn't get filtered to spam[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=KG215]Yeah, just got through filling in the gaps for Magic. His is completed. :cheers:
They're all in one Excel file, just different pages. I'll e-mail it to you shortly.[/QUOTE]
Should add, in case you haven't seen it yet, I've done Magic through 1987.
[QUOTE=Owl]Anyone else see where this is going? Goodbye on-topic postings.[/QUOTE]
I ignored him before anyone here asked me to on this topic...but once again, the insecure idiot just HAD to throw his "anti-Chamberlain" trash into the topic.
[QUOTE=fpliii][IMG]http://cdn.wbur.org/media/special/2010/wbur_0602_celtics-lakers/images/celtics-lakers-1968.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
foul
I did the cumulative stats for West, Baylor, Russell and Hondo....
West - 33/6/6 on 49%
Baylor - 26/13/4 on 46%
Russell - 17/22/6 on 43%
Hondo - 27/9/7 on 42%
[B][SIZE="4"]Game 1[/SIZE][/B]
West - 25/3/3 (7/24, 11/13)....43 minutes
Baylor - 24/12/0 (11/31, 2/2)....42
Russell - 19/25/3 (5/16, 9/14)....48
Hondo - 19/9/8 (7/17, 5/5)....47
Boston wins 107-101
-- The fast pace in the 1st half suited the Lakers (They were 61-48 up at the interval). Both teams were shooting the ball well but, because of the speed in which the shots were being chucked up, Russell in particular wasn't always in the ideal rebounding position. Russell commented after the game "I had to tell my players (Presumingly Bailey Howell) that he was taking bad shots even though he had hit 3 in a row". A great example of Russell's basketball IQ and leadership.
-- West and Baylor then combined to choke away a 15 point lead with 18 minutes to go. West went 4/18 in the 2nd half, including a 1/9 4th quarter. Baylor went 5/17 in the 2nd half. This was the overwhelming reason the Lakers lost. Their 2 stars went cold. Both West and Baylor blamed tiredness, which is a little odd considering that L.A had an 8 day layoff before the start of game 1 to rest up.
-- Russell scored "some" of his 19 points in the "vital minutes" of the 4th quarter.
[B]-- Bailey Howell scored 20 points, including 8 in the 4th, with effectively 2 bad ankles - He had been playing most of the season with an injured right ankle, and he tunred over on his left ankle in game 7 of the ECFs.[/B]
Player of the game - Russell
[B][SIZE="4"]Game 2[/SIZE][/B]
West - 35/6/6 (14/28, 7/9)....40
Baylor - 23/7/6 (9/17, 5/8)....30
Russell - 15/24/5 (5/13, 5/6)....48
Hondo - 24/6/4 (9/25, 6/8)....48
Lakers win 123-113
-- The Lakers pushed the tempo and Boston couldn't keep up.
-- Baylor sat with 5 fouls mid-way through the 3rd period but came back in with 7:10 left in the 4th. He then effectively sealed the game for the Lakers with 4 steals in quick succession, as the lakers went on a 13-6 run. He also made key contributions in the early 3rd quarter spurt that would ultimately be the game winning lead.
[B]-- The productivity of the Lakers bench was a big boost when both Baylor and West were sitting at the end of the 3rd/start of the 4th.[/B]
Player of the game - West
[B][SIZE="4"]Game 3[/SIZE][/B]
West - 33/7/9 (12/24, 9/12)....44
Baylor - 28/18/3 (12/25, 4/5)....42
Russell - 25/16/9 (9/16, 7/10)....48
Hondo - 27/10/5 (11/23, 5/6)....48
Boston wins 127-119
-- The Lakers were playing catch-up the entire game.
-- Russell was at his defensive/shot blocking best [B](Had 9 blocks)[/B]. Was switching out onto the perimiter to guard Baylor (And others) in the 1st half. He also made 3 key plays in the final 5 minutes (A leaping "save", a reverse dunk and blocked 2 shots).
-- Baylor was "ineffective" in the first half (Took only 5 shots [B]and scored only 4 points[/B]). Bailey Howell was making him drive to his left side, which often funnelled him towards Russell.
-- Larry Siegfried had a big game. 26 points & 7 assists, including 6 clutch free throws late in the 4th quarter.
Player of the game - Russell
[B][SIZE="4"]Game 4[/SIZE][/B]
West - 38/10/5 (13/21, 12/15)....44
Baylor - 30/10/5 (12/21, 6/8)....45
Russell - 11/22/6 (2/7, 7/19)....48
Hondo - 23/7/8 (8/21, 7/7)....48
Lakers win 118-105
-- Van Breda Kolff got tossed from the game after picking up a 2nd technical mid-way through the 3rd quarter. That was his 28th technical of the season.
-- Big contributions from Archie Clark (17 second half points) and Imhoff (20 boards & 2 key blocks in the last couple of minutes).
-- Russell missed 6 straight free throws during the final 7 minutes of the 4th Q.
-- Playing in garbage time with the game already wrapped up, West sprained his left ankle after a collision with Havlicek.
Player of the game - West
[B][SIZE="4"]Game 5[/SIZE][/B]
West - 35/4/6 (14/24, 7/8)....41
Baylor - 24/15/6 (9/26, 6/12)....48
Russell - 22/25/5 (8/20, 6/9)....53
Hondo - 31/10/8 (10/26, 11/14)....53
Boston wins 120-117 in OT
-- West received pain killing injections before the game and at half time for his sprained ankle.
[B]-- Mel Counts scored 8 of his 20 points in the 4th.[/B]
-- Baylor missed a game winning 25 foot buzzer beater at the end of regulation. Incidentally, a double dribble called on Russell with 3 seconds left in regulation set up that game winning chance.
-- Russell blocked a Baylor turnaround jumper that would have tied the game with less than 30 seconds remaining in OT. He managed to divert the block to Don Nelson who was then fouled by Baylor. Nelson missed the 1st free throw but made the all important 2nd one to give Boston a 3 point cushion with seconds remaining. Nelson was big throughout the game, too (26 points, 12 boards and 4 points in the OT). [B]"His best game ever" Russell said.[/B]
-- Hondo chipped in with 4 points in the OT, including the go-ahead jumper from the right corner with 38 seconds left.
-- Van Breda Kolff partly blamed the Lakers not boxing out on the boards for the loss. Siegfried scored a go ahead bucket from an offensive rebound with a minute to go in the OT.
Player of the game - Havlicek
[B][SIZE="4"]Game 6[/SIZE][/B]
West - 29/5/5 (8/19, 6/7)....42
Baylor - 28/13/6 (13/22, 2/4)....43
Russell - 12/19/6 (5/7, 2/2)....47
Hondo - 40/10/7 (14/28, 12/12)....47
Boston wins 124-109
-- The Lakers were comprehensively outplayed in every facet of the game. The Celtics seemingly couldn't miss. L.A appeared lethargic (West, still playing with a sore ankle, was "sub-par"). The Los Angeles crowd were booing their team as they went off at half time with a 20 point deficit.
-- Hondo went 8/14 with 22 points in the 1st half.
-- Bailey Howell saved his best for last. 36 points & 11 rebounds.
-- The L.A Times had Hondo with 34 points instead of his actual 40 :oldlol:
[B]-- Russell quotes - "This team is not one of the most talented I've been on, but we had a great bunch of hustlers" and "They were not the most challenging team we had to face, but they had the most heart"[/B]
Player of the game - Havlicek
It's interesting, Havlicek's name was hardly ever mentioned at all regarding the first 4 games. He seemed like an after thought. He clearly wasn't heavily involved in the key moments & periods. He was indeed instrumental in last 2 games, when the series was balanced on a knife-edge, but is that enough to gift him the FMVP?
Russell was the clear, unquestioned leader of the Celtics (He was their friggin coach, don't forget!!). It was his drive and competitiveness that pushed and motivated those around him. Hondo was a very talented player (The best player Russell played with during his 13 year career), but he was merely "one of the guys", one of Bill Russell's teammates. A very good argument can be made that he became the Cs best player in 68/69, but that was primarily because Russ was running on fumes by the post season.
Basically, the question is, does Havlicek's extra 10 points per game, and his great close-out game 6, make up for Russell's vastly superior defense/shot blocking impact, his 13 extra rebounds per game and obviously superior "intangibles"? Nope, not to me. I think Russell is deserving of the FMVP.
[QUOTE=fpliii]np
for late games played in LA we're missing minutes played: The Globe only carried basic scores for those nights (since the paper was likely close to going to press when the games ended), and unfortunately the Times didn't keep track of that stat for another few years...my apologies, but the rest of the info should be complete (and the articles are very interesting)
you'd mentioned 66 (which we'll get to after this year and the 67 Finals voting is complete), are there any other years you're interested in?[/QUOTE]
To be honest, I'm very interested in any & all series from the 60s. It's an intruiging era to me. You'll hopefully get through all the Finals in due course, which is more than I could ask for :cheers:
[QUOTE=oolalaa][B][SIZE="4"]Game 1[/SIZE][/B]
West - 25/3/3 (7/24, 11/13)....43 minutes
Baylor - 24/12/0 (11/31, 2/2)....42
Russell - 19/25/3 (5/16, 9/14)....48
Hondo - 19/9/8 (7/17, 5/5)....47
Boston wins 107-101
-- The fast pace in the 1st half suited the Lakers (They were 61-48 up at the interval). Both teams were shooting the ball well but, because of the speed in which the shots were being chucked up, Russell in particular wasn't always in the ideal rebounding position. Russell commented after the game "I had to tell my players (Presumingly Bailey Howell) that he was taking bad shots even though he had hit 3 in a row". A great example of Russell's basketball IQ and leadership.
-- West and Baylor then combined to choke away a 15 point lead with 18 minutes to go. West went 4/18 in the 2nd half, including a 1/9 4th quarter. Baylor went 5/17 in the 2nd half. This was the overwhelming reason the Lakers lost. Their 2 stars went cold. Both West and Baylor blamed tiredness, which is a little odd considering that L.A had an 8 day layoff before the start of game 1 to rest up.
-- Russell scored "some" of his 19 points in the "vital minutes" of the 4th quarter.
Player of the game - Russell
[B][SIZE="4"]Game 2[/SIZE][/B]
West - 35/6/6 (14/28, 7/9)....40
Baylor - 23/7/6 (9/17, 5/8)....30
Russell - 15/24/5 (5/13, 5/6)....48
Hondo - 24/6/4 (9/25, 6/8)....48
Lakers win 123-113
-- The Lakers pushed the tempo and Boston couldn't keep up.
-- Baylor sat with 5 fouls mid-way through the 3rd period but came back in with 7:10 left in the 4th. He then effectively sealed the game for the Lakers with 4 steals in quick succession, as the lakers went on a 13-6 run. He also made key contributions in the early 3rd quarter spurt that would ultimately be the game winning lead.
Player of the game - West
[B][SIZE="4"]Game 3[/SIZE][/B]
West - 33/7/9 (12/24, 9/12)....44
Baylor - 28/18/3 (12/25, 4/5)....42
Russell - 25/16/9 (9/16, 7/10)....48
Hondo - 27/10/5 (11/23, 5/6)....48
Boston wins 127-119
-- The Lakers were playing catch-up the entire game.
-- Russell was at his defensive/shot blocking best. Was switching out onto the perimiter to guard Baylor (And others) in the 1st half. He also made 3 key plays in the final 5 minutes (A leaping "save", a reverse dunk and blocked 2 shots).
-- Larry Siegfried had a big game. 26 points & 7 assists, including 6 clutch free throws late in the 4th quarter.
Player of the game - Russell
[B][SIZE="4"]Game 4[/SIZE][/B]
West - 38/10/5 (13/21, 12/15)....44
Baylor - 30/10/5 (12/21, 6/8)....45
Russell - 11/22/6 (2/7, 7/19)....48
Hondo - 23/7/8 (8/21, 7/7)....48
Lakers win 118-105
-- Van Breda Kolff got tossed from the game after picking up a 2nd technical mid-way through the 3rd quarter. That was his 28th technical of the season.
-- Big contributions from Archie Clark (17 second half points) and Imhoff (20 boards & 2 key blocks in the last couple of minutes).
-- Russell missed 6 straight free throws during the final 7 minutes of the 4th Q.
-- Playing in garbage time with the game already wrapped up, West sprained his left ankle after a collision with Havlicek.
Player of the game - West
[B][SIZE="4"]Game 5[/SIZE][/B]
West - 35/4/6 (14/24, 7/8)....41
Baylor - 24/15/6 (9/26, 6/12)....48
Russell - 22/25/5 (8/20, 6/9)....53
Hondo - 31/10/8 (10/26, 11/14)....53
Boston wins 120-117 in OT
-- West received pain killing injections before the game and at half time for his sprained ankle.
-- Baylor missed a game winning 25 foot buzzer beater at the end of regulation. Incidentally, a double dribble called on Russell with 3 seconds left in regulation set up that game winning chance.
-- Russell blocked a Baylor turnaround jumper that would have tied the game with less than 30 seconds remaining in OT. He managed to divert the block to Don Nelson who was then fouled by Baylor. Nelson missed the 1st free throw but made the all important 2nd one to give Boston a 3 point cushion with seconds remaining. Nelson was big throughout the game, too (26 points, 12 boards and 4 points in the OT).
-- Hondo chipped in with 4 points in the OT, including the go-ahead jumper from the right corner with 38 seconds left.
-- Van Breda Kolff partly blamed the Lakers not boxing out on the boards for the loss. Siegfried scored a go ahead bucket from an offensive rebound with a minute to go in the OT.
Player of the game - Havlicek
[B][SIZE="4"]Game 6[/SIZE][/B]
West - 29/5/5 (8/19, 6/7)....42
Baylor - 28/13/6 (13/22, 2/4)....43
Russell - 12/19/6 (5/7, 2/2)....47
Hondo - 40/10/7 (14/28, 12/12)....47
Boston wins 124-109
-- The Lakers were comprehensively outplayed in every facet of the game. The Celtics seemingly couldn't miss. L.A appeared lethargic (West, still playing with a sore ankle, was "sub-par"). The Los Angeles crowd were booing their team as they went off at half time with a 20 point deficit.
-- Hondo went 8/14 with 22 points in the 1st half.
-- Baliey Howell saved his best for last. 36 points & 11 rebounds.
-- The L.A Times had Hondo with 34 points, instead of his actual 40 :oldlol:
Player of the game - Havlicek
It's interesting, Havlicek's name was hardly ever mentioned at all regarding the first 4 games. He seemed like an after thought. He clearly wasn't heavily involved in the key moments & periods. He was indeed instrumental in last 2 games, when the series was balanced on a knife-edge, but is that enough to gift him the FMVP?
Russell was the clear, unquestioned leader of the Celtics (He was their friggin coach, don't forget!!). It was his drive and competitiveness that pushed and motivated those around him. Hondo was a very talented player (The best player Russell played with during his 13 year career), but he was merely "one of the guys", one of Bill Russell's teammates. A very good argument can be made that he became the Cs best player in 68/69, but that was primarily because Russ was running on fumes by the post season.
Basically, the question is, does Havlicek's extra 10 points per game, and his great close-out game 6, make up for Russell's vastly superior defense/shot blocking impact, his 13 extra rebounds per game and obviously superior "intangibles"? Nope, not to me. I think Russell is deserving of the FMVP.[/QUOTE]
Great job breaking it down. I now wish I hadn't done the same thing myself...
My only disagreement is with game five. I have Russell as the player of the game over Hondo. The numbers are pretty comparable however Russell made the key play in overtime and also had a few other blocks down the stretch to secure the series pivotal game.
It is his clutch play (even considering the second time he could have wore goat horns with that double dribble) coupled with his on point coaching analysis (and needed adjustments) throughout the series that pushed me in his favor just over Havlicek for the series MVP. Hondo's best game was game six, the closeout game, usually where Russell made his mark, however in this instance, the game was a blowout, so those 40 points aren't quite as big as some of his 40+ games the next finals.
[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Great job breaking it down. I now wish I hadn't done the same thing myself...
My only disagreement is with game five. I have Russell as the player of the game over Hondo. The numbers are pretty comparable however Russell made the key play in overtime and also had a few other blocks down the stretch to secure the series pivotal game.
It is his clutch play (even considering the second time he could have wore goat horns with that double dribble) coupled with his on point coaching analysis (and needed adjustments) throughout the series that pushed me in his favor just over Havlicek for the series MVP. Hondo's best game was game six, the closeout game, usually where Russell made his mark, however in this instance, the game was a blowout, so those 40 points aren't quite as big as some of his 40+ games the next finals.[/QUOTE]
You could be right about game 5. It was almost too close to call for me. I guess I would say this....Russell may well have been "clutch", but so was Havlicek, perhaps even more so. A double dribble during the most crucial posession of the entire season is not something I'm willing to ignore. Like you said, he did make some plays in the OT that somewhat made up for it, but he didn't score 4 points or hit the go ahead/game winning jumper that ultimately won the game for Boston, Havlieck did.
And your comment about game 6 being a blowout, therefore Hondo's 40 points weren't as impressive as other games, is not necessarily wrong, but it's double edged. It was a blowout primarily because of Havlicek's relentless scoring through the first 3 quarters.
With that being said, I don't want to defend Hondo too much because I honestly believe Russell deserved the FMVP for the reasons you mentioned.
I'm old enough to have seen this series, and I can remember watching at least some of it on ABC at the time, though I must say that most of my "memories" seem to be quite far from reality.
Before reading this thread, including the google documents and oolala's breakdown, I would have said Havlicek, but now I'm somewhat inclined to side with Russell. I'm curious as to why some of you guys, Regul8r in particular, are giving it to Havlicek. I'm siding with Russell at the moment, but my mind can change, and like I said, had I not taken the time to actually read the document and the responses in this thread before responding, I would have said Havlicek.
Well, the argument is between Russell and Havlicek. Havlicek had better stats, but Russell was probably the greater impact. That, and seeing how it was still Russell's team at the time, it'd be fair to give it to Russell. Defense was there and evident throughout, still put up solid stats, broke down the Lakers, etc.
Havlicek still played well though and could have an argument due to great defense also, solid shooting, impressive stats, etc. But [b]Russell[/b] seems to be the MVP here.