Is defense an overrated argument?

[QUOTE=Aussie Dunker]In my opinion this question isn't valid because to me, it is far more important for a C to be good at defense, at far more important for a PG to be good on offense. It ias hard to scale a defensive C against an offensive PG.

If you were to ask me would I rather say prime Ben Wallace or prime Brook Lopez at C, it would be a no brainer.

Same as if you would ask me would I rather a prime Steve Nash running PG or a prime Mo Cheeks / Dennis Johnson... No brainer...

Ofcourse, you would prefer to have the option of great two way players - which is why players like Duncan, KG and even players like Brand, Sheed don't get enough props in my opinion...

At the end of the day, I think the importance of defense relies marginally on two things,

a) The scheme your team is running,

b) Somewhat the position you are playing, even though defense is very important over all positions, I think it is a necessity to have a defensive front court, more so than a defensive back court...[/QUOTE]

^ Very true

[QUOTE=Aussie Dunker]In my opinion this question isn't valid because to me, it is far more important for a C to be good at defense, at far more important for a PG to be good on offense. It ias hard to scale a defensive C against an offensive PG.[/QUOTE]
I actually agree with this, so lets use PG's only instead:

Tony Parker is a very good offensive player, not a good defender

Avery Bradley is a great defender, not a good offensive player

Who's better?

[QUOTE=Young X]I actually agree with this, so lets use PG's only instead:

Tony Parker is a very good offensive player, not a good defender

Avery Bradley is a great defender, not a good offensive player

Who's better?[/QUOTE]

Again not the most valid question as one player is arguably top 10 and the other might be top 100.. But I get the idea of what you are asking:

From my post before, to me, it is more beneficial in today's league to have a more offensive skewed PG rather than a defensive skewed PG - so you go with Parker.

Another example of two players who are fairly similar in status in the NBA.

Lopez or Noah?

Noah may not be the better player, but I take Noah purely because defense is very important to me at the C position -

[QUOTE=Carbine]People prefer Garnett over Barkley because Garnett can give you great offense as well as being one of the best defenders EVER, not just his era.

Barkley gives you more explosive and better offense, but he's not anywhere near Garnett on the other side of the ball.

With Garnett, you have a #1 option (or 1B option) and one of the best anchors on defense ever. I think lots of people would prefer that over what Barkley brings to the table (more offensive firepower)[/QUOTE]

Good Post.

KG is among one of the best team defensive players ever - definitely among the most sophisticated and smartest. As for the offense/defense comparison Barkley had strong support of very good offensive player to compliment his offensive game quite a few times in his career. If KG had very good defensive players, like Barkley had good offensive players in his career, it wouldn't be much of an argument. KG would be so far ahead it wouldn't be be up for discussion.

And KG offensive style blended in perfectly when he had offensive players. Barkley more often than not offensively clashed when he had good offensive players. And if KG had very good offensive support its very possible he could have averaged what Barkley did for a 8 year prime. Barkley was explosive but he wasn't consistent. KG was the most intense player and consistent player for years.

[QUOTE]How bout Scottie Pippens defensive Job on John Stockton and the Utah Jazz. The Bulls won 96-54. Which is the largest margin of victory in an NBA finals. Thanks to Pippens defense. I remember reading that Pippen in some way accounted for 20 of the Jazz 26 TOs. His +/- was +42. He drew charges, steals, blocked a shot, played help, played great man D, rebounded, he was everywhere. It was so bad that Jerry Sloan sent tapes to the league accusing Pippen of illegal defense.*

[/QUOTE]
Id like to get youre opinion on this response to you young X

Just to throw it out there, what about Mutombo vs. Barkely.

Both pretty similarly dominant on one side, Charles on offense and Mutombo on defense. Mutomber is probably a better offensive player than Barkley a defensive player.

This is where the weighting system comes into play, the 65/35 ratio I was talking about earlier which would put Charles clearly ahead.

[QUOTE=Young X]I actually agree with this, so lets use PG's only instead:

Tony Parker is a very good offensive player, not a good defender

Avery Bradley is a great defender, not a good offensive player

Who's better?[/QUOTE]
The PG position's defensive impact isn't much and can be covered by team defense.

[QUOTE=iamgine]The PG position's defensive impact isn't much and can be covered by team defense.[/QUOTE]

Exactly right mate

The PG position probably deserves its own formula, more in the 75/25 favoring offense....maybe as high as 80/20

PG - 75/25 or 80/20

Wing - 65/35 or 70/30

PF's - 60/40 or 65/35

Centers - 50/50

[QUOTE=Carbine]The PG position probably deserves its own formula, more in the 75/25 favoring offense....maybe as high as 80/20

PG - 75/25 or 80/20

Wing - 65/35 or 70/30

PF's - 60/40 or 65/35

Centers - 50/50[/QUOTE]

Your system is good in theory, even though there are some exceptions,

The weighting looks about right, except in my opinion, I would have the C at about 35/65 in favor of D,

But I think we can all agree that having a two way player is far more beneficial right :cheers:

[QUOTE=Young X]I actually agree with this, so lets use PG's only instead:

Tony Parker is a very good offensive player, not a good defender

Avery Bradley is a great defender, not a good offensive player

Who's better?[/QUOTE]
Bad comparison. Avery Bradley isba great MAN defender. Parker has evolved into a scorer capable of attacking the basket as well as hitting a midrange jumper. And he can pass.

A better comoarison for Parker would be Rajon Rondo

[quote]Mutombo vs. Barkely. [/quote]

I think Barkley is comparable to Shaq as an offensive player, minus the FT%. Even though Shaq draws fouls at a higher rate, he is not as efficient as Barkley as a [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=296225"]finisher[/URL] around the basket. In looking at their skill level, I would say he is on par with or better than Shaq at almost everything offensively, but Shaq is 7 feet and plays center which makes him a much higher impact player on defense. I'm not going to badmouth Garnett or anyone else, as others have done to Barkley. I never thought I would see anyone say he [I]"lacked intensity"[/I] or that he was the [I]"Iverson of Power forwards"[/I]. A guy who was too intense for his own good at times lacked intensity? That's unbelievable. For all the celebration a guy like Rodman got with his histrionics as a rebounding specialist, he had nothing on Barkley as a rebounder.



[I]Chicago Tribune - Feb 8, 1997

Also offering his opinion of Rodman was Wilt Chamberlain, the greatest rebounder and No. 2 scorer in NBA history. Chamberlain and Magic Johnson are among several Hall of Famers who believe the presence of too many "specialists"--players who only shoot or rebound or defend is one reason why scoring is down and the game is slower. Rodman, Chamberlain said, "is a big rebounder. He does it better than anyone else out there. But I am amazed (at) guys who tend not to want to understand that playing the complete game is what the game should be about. "I remember Elgin Baylor scoring 45 and 71 points against us beating us and getting 18 rebounds. I'm not impressed with Dennis' 17 rebound average. He's not an all-around player. Why I like a guy like Charles Barkley so much is he gives his team whatever it needs at that time."[/I]

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Id like to get youre opinion on this response to you young X[/QUOTE]
That's great, Pippen is the best perimeter defender I've ever seen, and those Bulls teams were the GOAT teams, but this just proves my point, Defense is 100% team effort - everybody has to do their part. Pippen didn't hold the Jazz to 54 points by himself, the Bulls as a team held the Jazz to 54 points. Pippen definitely played the biggest role, but if Jordan, Harper, Kukoc and Longley were playing terrible defensively would that be possible?

Also, how many times does 54 pts by a team in a single game happen? Almost never. But how many times do we see 40-50 pt games?

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Bad comparison. Avery Bradley isba great MAN defender. Parker has evolved into a scorer capable of attacking the basket as well as hitting a midrange jumper. And he can pass.

A better comoarison for Parker would be Rajon Rondo[/QUOTE]
Can one player have the defensive equivalent of a 35 pt season? Can one player stop teams from scoring 35 points per game for a whole season by himself?

[QUOTE=Carbine]Just to throw it out there, what about Mutombo vs. Barkely.

Both pretty similarly dominant on one side, Charles on offense and Mutombo on defense. Mutomber is probably a better offensive player than Barkley a defensive player.

This is where the weighting system comes into play, the 65/35 ratio I was talking about earlier which would put Charles clearly ahead.[/QUOTE]
Hmm wouldn't this depend on what kind of scorer Mutombo can get in his team vs what kind of defensive presence Barkley can get?

It's too bad Mutombo played during the era of so many great centers, really overlooking his value. If we just look at Mutombo vs Barkley, we automatically pick Barkley but in reality it's not as simple as that.