Where would Kobe rank in the 60s

[QUOTE=ImKobe]And who did Magic have for those rings? Oh yeah, only the NBA's all-time leading scorer, who won an FMVP over prime Magic at 38 years of age. Even James Worthy won a Finals MVP over prime Magic. Jamaal Wilkes also deserved one of those FMVPs that Magic got & Kareem was robbed in Magic's rookie season.

People use Kobe's help to take credit away from him all the time, why does no one do that for Magic, who arguably had some of the most stacked rosters ever?

1985 Lakers: Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, McAdoo, Wilkes, Byron Scott. That Lakers team had eleven 10+ ppg scorers & 3 scored over 20 a game for crying out loud. Magic obviously had an inconic career with his regular season & Playoff success & even though I love the guy I feel like the way his career got short added a lot to his legend.

Magic won 5 out of 9 Finals while Kobe won 5 out of 7 & Kobe had a period, where he had zero help for 3 straight seasons. Magic was drafted into a team that went to the semis the year prior & had so many HOFers play alongside him during their primes. What's worse, Magic nearly got swept in the first round with HCA as the defending champs against the 6th seeded Rockets, who went 40-42 in the regular season.

Kobe won 2 rings & led his team to b2b titles without Shaq or another top 50 all-time great, Magic didn't do that. :coleman:
Kobe also never lost in the first round with HCA & he had considerably less help after Shaq left.


Kobe, Magic & Kareem each have 5 titles with the Lakers, Kobe did it with the least amount of help. Kobe's the greatest Laker. Shaq said it, & he hated Kobe for a while. The 3 most iconic Laker players ever, who all could be debated for the greatest Laker, said Kobe was the greatest. I'm taking their word.[/QUOTE]

Magic's CAREER W-L % = .740
Magic's CAREER W-L % withOUT Kareem= .743

Magic took a broken down, injury-plagued, over-the-hill roster to a 58-24 record his LAST full-time season, and then guided them to the Finals.

He retired, and guess what...they went 43-39, or about where they were when he joined them in 1979. Oh, and the next season... 39-43.

Kobe's career Finals FG%= .416.
Magic's career Finals FG% = .516.

Magic >>>>>> Kobe.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Magic's CAREER W-L % = .740
Magic's CAREER W-L % withOUT Kareem= .743

Magic took a broken down, injury-plagued, over-the-hill roster to a 58-24 record his LAST full-time season, and then guided them to the Finals.

He retired, and guess what...they went 43-39, or about where they were when he joined them in 1979. Oh, and the nest season... 39-43.

Kobe's career Finals FG%= .416.
Magic's career Finals FG% = .516.

Magic >>>>>> Kobe.[/QUOTE]

so, FG% is the epitome of ranking players? Kobe's a better scorer & a defender than Magic ever was. Magic's efficiency and numbers are inflated due to the high pace they play at + you make it look like all Magic had was Kareem.

You can't compare stats(especially efficiency) across eras like that, you should know that more than anyone else. Kobe won 5 out of 7 Finals, Magic won 5 out of 9. Magic himself said Kobe was the greatest Laker. Jerry West said Kobe was the greatest Laker. Shaq said Kobe was the greatest Laker.

Them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Magic's CAREER W-L % = .740
Magic's CAREER W-L % withOUT Kareem= .743

Magic took a broken down, injury-plagued, over-the-hill roster to a 58-24 record his LAST full-time season, and then guided them to the Finals.

He retired, and guess what...they went 43-39, or about where they were when he joined them in 1979. Oh, and the next season... 39-43.

Kobe's career Finals FG%= .416.
Magic's career Finals FG% = .516.

Magic >>>>>> Kobe.[/QUOTE]
So when an all-time great player retires his team, which is a tad old at the time has a worse record than with that player? Your arguments are so incredibly stupid, it's just cringe-worthy to even read this shit.

[QUOTE=SexSymbol]So when an all-time great player retires his team, which is a tad old at the time has a worse record than with that player? Your arguments are so incredibly stupid, it's just cringe-worthy to even read this shit.[/QUOTE]

Seriously, and how are the Lakers doing without Kobe this season as compared to with him the year before, despite having a bench & for most of the season a healthy Pau Gasol? I'm pretty sure they are currently less than 4 games behind the top 3 worst record in the league.

[QUOTE=SexSymbol]So when an all-time great player retires his team, which is a tad old at the time has a worse record than with that player? Your arguments are so incredibly stupid, it's just cringe-worthy to even read this shit.[/QUOTE]

Ok, I'll play.

In Kareem's last season, the Lakers went 57-25.
He retired, and they went 63-19.

BTW, in Magic's last season LA went 58-24..and to the Finals.
He retired and they fell to 43-39, and were beaten in the first round of the playoffs.

I would say that is a SIGNIFICANT drop, wouldn't you?

[QUOTE=ImKobe]Seriously, and how are the Lakers doing without Kobe this season as compared to with him the year before, despite having a bench & for most of the season a healthy Pau Gasol? I'm pretty sure they are currently less than 4 games behind the top 3 worst record in the league.[/QUOTE]


Oh yes...and let's forget that they don't have Dwight and his 76 games, or that Nash played 50 games last season, and he has played 14 this season.

BTW, they went 45-37 with Kobe, Gasol, Dwight, and Nash last year.
This year, with basically Gasol, who has missed 13 games, himself, 25-51.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Oh yes...and let's forget that they don't have Dwight and his 76 games, or that Nash played 50 games last season, and he has played 14 this season.

BTW, they went 45-37 with Kobe, Gasol, Dwight, and Nash last year.
This year, with basically Gasol, who has missed 13 games, himself, 25-51.[/QUOTE]

Nash, Dwight & Gasol were all dealing with injuries for most of the season with Nash & Pau having the worst years of their career while also missing over 30 games apiece.

Kobe played 40+ minutes practically every game to keep his team in the Playoff race, Lakers had a top 3 record in the West after the ASB with Kobe playing basically every minute at point guard because we had no more guards left on the roster, Kobe goes down & they get bukkaked in the Playoffs by Timmy, Manu & Parker.

Lakers, without Kobe, are a top 5 lottery team. Lakers, with Kobe, are a Playoff team.

One thing I know for sure is that he won't shoot better than 45%.

[QUOTE=ImKobe]Seriously, and how are the Lakers doing without Kobe this season as compared to with him the year before, despite having a bench & for most of the season a healthy Pau Gasol? I'm pretty sure they are currently less than 4 games behind the top 3 worst record in the league.[/QUOTE]

you are on some special kind of retarded down's syndrome to try and justify that kobe's impact is comparable to magics. :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[QUOTE=swagga]you are on some special kind of retarded down's syndrome to try and justify that kobe's impact is comparable to magics. :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm[/QUOTE]

It is. Kobe won 5 championships & had much less help than Magic did. Magic had 2 other Finals MVPs on his team + another HOF, who was in his prime & put up 20+ ppg on above 50% shooting on two of those championship runs. Are you kidding me?

300 ppg
90rbs
50 ast

Throughout the 60's the two best guards in the league were Oscar and Jerry. There was extensive debate as to who was the better of the two. I think Oscar probably got the nod more often than not, but only by the slightest of margins. Now drop prime Kobe into the 60's and I think it would be a three way debate. The first thing to understand is that by going back to the 60's Kobe immediately loses all his modern advantages due to money and technology. On top of that he is subject to 60's rules (for example, no palming/carrying and traveling), which is gonna affect his game. The game was more physical and he's not gonna be as successful driving considering Chamberlain, Russell, and Thurmond, etc. guarding the paint. Plus.......no three point line.

I DO think Kobe would do just fine back then, but the idea he'd have seasons averaging 40+ points per game, in my opinion, is ludicrous. More than likely he would average 25-30 ppg just like Oscar and Jerry.

[QUOTE=ImKobe]It is. Kobe won 5 championships & had much less help than Magic did. Magic had 2 other Finals MVPs on his team + another HOF, who was in his prime & put up 20+ ppg on above 50% shooting on two of those championship runs. Are you kidding me?[/QUOTE]

Kobe was awful in TWO of those Finals, but since he had a dominant THREE-TIME FMVP on the SAME team, he was fortunate enough to have added two rings to his resume.

BTW, while Magic was beating the great Celtic, Sixer, and Piston teams of the 80's in his Finals, Kobe won two rings against arguably two of the worst Finals' teams in NBA history in the '02 and '09 Nets. Not coincidently, those two Finals against those Nets were the only two in which Kobe played reasonably well.

The "clutch" Kobe...

[QUOTE]99-00
Regular season 22.5 ppg .468 FG%
Finals 15.6 ppg .367 FG%
Last Game of Series .296 FG%

00-01
Regular season 28.5 ppg .464 FG%
Finals 24.6 ppg .415 FG%
Last Game of Series .389 FG%

01-02
Regular season 25.2 ppg .469
Finals 26.8 ppg .514 FG%
Last Game of Series .438 FG%

03-04
Regular season 24.0 ppg .438 FG%
Finals 22.6 ppg .381 FG%
Last Game of Series .333 FG%

07-08
Regular season 28.3 ppg .459 FG%
Finals 25.7 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .318 FG%

08-09
Regular season 26.8 ppg .467 FG%
Finals 32.4 ppg .430 FG%
Last Game of Series .435 FG%

09-10
Regular season 27.0 ppg .456 FG%
Finals 28.6 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .250 FG%


Other noteables:


97-98
Swept by Utah 4-0.
Kobe averages 10.0 ppg on a .367 FG%

98-99
Swept by San Antonio 4-0
Last game of the series : Kobe 16 points on a .438 FG%

02-03
Lose to Spurs in WCF's, 4-2.
Last game loss by a score of 110-82 (Kobe with 20 points in a season in which he averaged 30 ppg)

03-04 Finals
Heavily favored Lakers lose to Pistons, 4-1.
In the clinching game five loss Kobe shoots .333 in a 100-87 loss (and LA was down 23 going into 4th quarter)

04-05
Team goes 34-48 and misses playoffs

05-06
Regular season 35.4 ppg .450
Playoffs 27.9 ppg .497
Last game (7) 24 points in a 121-90 loss (after blowing a 3-1 series lead)

06-07
Team goes 42-40
Loses in first round to Suns, 4-1.
Last game of that series, Kobe shoots .394 from the floor

07-08
Lakers are blown out by Celts in Finals.
In game four the Lakers blow a 23 point lead, and lose, in a game in which Kobe shot .316 from the field.
In the clinching game six loss, the Lakers lose by a Finals record margin of 131-92. Kobe shoots .318 from the floor.

10-11
Lakers with HCA are swept by the Mavs, 4-0.
In the clinching game four loss, LA loses 122-86. Kobe shoots .389 from the field.
[/QUOTE]

Yep, conclusive proof that Kobe is the greatest Laker of all-time...

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]The "clutch" Kobe...



Yep, conclusive proof that Kobe is the greatest Laker of all-time...[/QUOTE]

00 through 02 LA's biggest competition was out west.. where there were a ton of stacked teams.. Kings, Portland, Mavs, Spurs, etc How did Kobe do against those teams? He had monster series.

LA's Finals opponents were weak and really no match for LA at all. They won those Finals comfortably 12-3. So using Finals dropoff in that case is misleading.. the real Finals/competition were out west


Using last game of the series is also incredibly arbitrary.. why not use the first? Does how you open a series and set the tone not matter? What about stats from a pivotal game 3 or game 5? There's little logic to your method.


Magic played what 12 seasons? You can run through the 7 years where he lost and pin blame just like you did Kobe.. and since Kobe's career is much longer because he didnt get HIV he has a lot more years to pick at. You could pick apart any great that has a 15+ year career like that.. because for the majority of everyones career besides Bill Russell they were losing in some fashion.