Bird stans ignoring LeBron's astronomical defensive advantage. :oldlol:
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Bird stans ignoring LeBron's astronomical defensive advantage. :oldlol:
[B]Bird...
-Had a better peak as an overall player
-Took home one more MVP award
-Played in a much tougher conference, and faced the mighty showtime Lakers twice in the Finals
-Had more competition as far as superstars at the top and even SF's overall
(also, if Larry wasn't injured in 1985, the Celtics probably would've won again, but it is what it is)
Pretty close though, on all accounts, don't get me wrong.
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The pace argument doesn't really work with these two - the game has changed in more ways than just pace.
Bird may have benefited from more possessions, but did he really possess the ball more? Ball dominance wasn't so prevalent in the 1980s.
The three point shot is another example. LeBron shot roughly 200 more threes than Bird did over the same three-year span in the playoffs.
For the regular season, the disparity is even greater.
There's an argument that Bird would've had a higher PPG avg. with way the three is utilized today.
That's why you have to watch the game, study it as it was played then vs. now.
Gameplay >> Pace.
[QUOTE=Harison]So much disrespect for Bird in this thread, Bird >>> Lebron, and its not as close as simple box stats would suggest.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://www.bodylovewellness.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/well-thats-just-like-your-opinion-man-gif-the-dude-lebowski.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]Bird...
-Played in a much tougher conference, and faced the mighty showtime Lakers twice in the Finals
-Had more competition as far as superstars at the top and even SF's overall
[/QUOTE]
Implying his teams werent stacked as well?
Cant go wrong with either to be honest.
[QUOTE=Jacks3]Bird stans ignoring LeBron's astronomical defensive advantage. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Astronomical?
LeBron's the better overall defender, but when you break things down, the gap is anything but "astronomical."
Perimeter, on ball defense: LeBron, no question
Help defense: Slight advantage to LeBron, but Bird was also excellent.
Post defense: Even
Shot blocking: Even
Steals: Even
Defensive rebounding: Bird
[QUOTE=Quickening]If you take account the different pace 30 years ago, Lebrons stats are comfortably better, you're looking at adding 10 percent to everyone one of them.[/QUOTE]
The game is too different now. If you account for changes in pace, you need to consider other differences, as well, to get an accurate picture.
[QUOTE=Sakkreth]Ver very close. I am going with Bron because the pace of 80s.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Quickening]If you take account the different pace 30 years ago, Lebrons stats are comfortably better, you're looking at adding 10 percent to everyone one of them.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=raprap]Birds stats are inflated because of pace. Nonetheless, both are great 3 year runs by an individual. :bowdown:[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=raprap]We need to use pace to compare both of their stats because the game was different back then. So we need to adjust there stats to properly compare both. And no, I am not disrespecting larry legend.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]
You didn't even know what the pace argument was for... stop acting like some historian.[/QUOTE]
[B]People still spilling out that pace "bullshit"? :rolleyes: :oldlol: :facepalm
Think a difference of 10% in pace is considerable or something? Especially for a superstar?? :facepalm
Bird was averaging like 20 shots per game in his prime, he wouldn't be able to do that today? Shit, he'd even be getting much more superstar treatment and them FT's, lmfao.
He averaged 10.0 RPG for his career, in 38.4 MPG, you're telling me he wouldn't do that today or be extremely close? Shawn Marion, for example, has a career TRB% of 14.4 and averages 9.0 RPG in 35.3 MPG for his career... Bird has a career TRB% of 14.5, was taller than Marion, a better rebounder and played with Parish and McHale for plenty of years, plus he'd be playing even more PF nowadays with all the small ball and the league getting shorter and less physical, no McHale to push him more to SF, either.
Bird almost outrebound prime Moses in a playoff series, Bron wouldn't be even remotely close to that, underrating Bird's rebounding like crazy here :oldlol: Some dudes don't even know what they're saying, Bird's arguably the greatest rebounding SF ever, he was physical and agressive af, incredibly smart, knew where to be, actually fought for rebounds and he's one of the GOAT weak-side rebounders.
Larry was averaging around 7 APG, at his best, with a USG% of 26 or so, which is low for a superstar, never quite being the primary ball-handler/PG, never over-handling the ball and playing in a dynamic, "free-flowing" offense where the ball is just moving around (in the Celtics' best years)... It's actually "easier" to rack up them assists playing for a slow paced offense and dominating the ball, a player gets to control everything more, gets to make the pass before the shot, run up the clock, so on... Look at Jordan, for example, 8 APG playing for the slow paced Bulls, he wouldn't get the same numbers playing for (the faster paced) Celtics or even more the Lakers, with the ball moving between everyone.
....
In 1992, the Celtics played at the average pace of 95.8, and a 35 years old Larry Bird, playing through conditions most wouldn't go through, as a complete shell of his former self, averaged 20.2/9.6/6.8/0.9/0.7, in less than 37 minutes, taking less than 17 shots, getting to the line less than 4 times per game, and ofc not on his usual efficiency from the field, with a USG% of 24.7. How about that?
And as the exclamation point, Bird was averaging about the same when playing at today's pace: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po1M--HaINA[/url]
Keep saying "inflated numbers" or other bullshit cliches like that though, thinking it is as simple as that just to prop-up your argument.
Dead all that noise, please, slowly take the ether.
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I'd take LeBron for the defensive advantage, but it's pretty f[SIZE="2"]uck[/SIZE]ing close. Cant' hate people for picking bird
[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]Basically.. League wide pace was at 102 from 1984-1986, while at 92 from 2012-2014.. And Heat were always pretty low, while the Celtics averaged even more than 102...
And then the defense gives Bron the edge.
To add perspective to Bird's rebounding: Celtic players used to get out of the way and let him take the rebound so he could start the fast break or throw a pass... Great qualities, but has nothing to do with his rebounding if we're honest.[/QUOTE]
Serious question: Do you really think that guys like Parish, McHale, Robey, Walton, Maxwell, Cowens, etc. were making a conscious attempt to get out of Bird's way to let him get rebounds and start breaks?
I watched this team for years and never saw any evidence of this. Sounds like a terrible rebounding strategy, if you ask me, and one that would never work in a game situation.
Bird was always looking to outlet pass and start breaks on his own if he happened to grab the rebound, independent of what his teammates were doing.
[QUOTE=DFish24]Who had the better 3-year run overall?
[b]Accolades[/b]
Larry Bird: 2x Champion, 3x MVP, 2x FMVP, All-NBA-First x3, All-Defensive 2nd
Lebron James: 2x Champion, 2x MVP, 2x FMVP, All-NBA-First x3, All-Defensive 1st x2, All-Defensive 2nd
[b]
Overall Regular Season[/b]
84-86 Bird: 26/10/7/2/1 on 57%TS
12-14 Lebron: 27/8/7/2/1 on 63%TS
[b]
Overall Playoffs[/b]
84-86 Bird: 26/10/7/2/1 on 59%TS
12-14 Lebron: 28/7/6/2/1 on 61%TS[/QUOTE]
Way too easy... Larry Bird.
[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall] I love how these clueless morons cite "pace" without realizing that most stats DO NOT scale linearly with pace, and also that Bird was FAR less ball dominant than Lebron, and that Celtics team in general was a very equal opportunity offense. These idiots - weaned on Lebron basketball for the last 7 years - just picture plugging him into those Celtics and dominating the ball like he does and has in the modern NBA, and hence his stats rising accordingly. Doesn't work like that. First off, Lebron would never be ALLOWED to play the way he has back then, and secondly the team's performance would suffer dramatically if he did.
Bird > Lebron. I wouldn't even think twice about taking prime Bird on my team over prime Lebron, both in the RS and especially the postseason.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Hands of Iron] How inflated are Bird's numbers, really? There's a bit more of a difference in terms of assists, but it's virtually nonexistent in terms of available rebounds per game, which is why Bird has higher percentages there even in light of the faster pace. There were fewer rebounds than you might expect because players were largely better shooters on average in Bird's era. You'd also need to adjust for everybody on his team which means he's probably losing mere decimal points on his averages at the most.
TRB League Averages
1984: 43.0, 2012: 42.2
1985: 43.5, 2013: 42.1
1986: 43.6, 2014: 42.7
AST League Averages
1984: 26.2, 2012: 21.0
1985: 26.0, 2013: 22.1
1986: 26.0, 2014: 22.0
I'm also not sure why people automatically assume the No. 1 option of an offense would be the one to lose opportunities? It isn't as if Bird was hoisting up 30+ shots per game in order to put up his numbers. It's far more likely he's eating the same whether the pace is 102 or 92. In the most simplistic of arguments - and in counter to "higher pace, inflated stats" - one could just as easily turn around and say Lebron's ball dominance and usage rate makes his numbers inflated, particularly dimes.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Champ] The pace argument doesn't really work with these two - the game has changed in more ways than just pace.
Bird may have benefited from more possessions, but did he really possess the ball more? Ball dominance wasn't so prevalent in the 1980s.
The three point shot is another example. LeBron shot roughly 200 more threes than Bird did over the same three-year span in the playoffs.
For the regular season, the disparity is even greater.
There's an argument that Bird would've had a higher PPG avg. with way the three is utilized today.
That's why you have to watch the game, study it as it was played then vs. now.
Gameplay >> Pace[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]People still spilling out that pace "bullshit"? :rolleyes: :oldlol: :facepalm
Think a difference of 10% in pace is considerable or something? Especially for a superstar?? :facepalm
Bird was averaging like 20 shots per game in his prime, he wouldn't be able to do that today? Shit, he'd even be getting much more superstar treatment and them FT's, lmfao.
He averaged 10.0 RPG for his career, in 38.4 MPG, you're telling me he wouldn't do that today or be extremely close? Shawn Marion, for example, has a career TRB% of 14.4 and averages 9.0 RPG in 35.3 MPG for his career... Bird has a career TRB% of 14.5, was taller than Marion, a better rebounder and played with Parish and McHale for plenty of years, plus he'd be playing even more PF nowadays with all the small ball and the league getting shorter and less physical, no McHale to push him more to SF, either.
Larry was averaging around 7 APG, at his best, with a USG% of 26 or so, which is low for a superstar, never quite being the primary ball-handler/PG, never over-handling the ball and playing in a dynamic, "free-flowing" offense where the ball is just moving around (in the Celtics' best years)... It's actually "easier" to rack up them assists playing for a slow paced offense and dominating the ball, a player gets to control everything more, gets to make the pass before the shot, run up the clock, so on... Look at Jordan, for example, 8 APG playing for the slow paced Bulls, he wouldn't get the same numbers playing for (the faster paced) Celtics or even more the Lakers, with the ball moving between everyone.
....
In 1992, the Celtics played at the average pace of 95.8, and a 35 years old Larry Bird, playing through conditions most wouldn't go through, as a complete shell of his former self, averaged 20.2/9.6/6.8/0.9/0.7, in less than 37 minutes, taking less than 17 shots, getting to the line less than 4 times per game, and ofc not on his usual efficiency from the field, with a USG% of 24.7. How about that?
And as the exclamation point, Bird was averaging about the same when playing at today's pace: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po1M--HaINA[/url]
Keep saying "inflated numbers" or other bullshit cliches like that though, thinking it is as simple as that just to prop-up your argument.
Dead all that noise, please, slowly take the ether.
[/B][/QUOTE]
This is fuvking brutal. :lol Shame it will fall on deaf ears. Or blind eyes. Empty brains. Whatever
[QUOTE=Hands of Iron]This is fuvking brutal. :lol Shame it will fall on deaf ears. Or blind eyes. Empty brains. Whatever[/QUOTE]
Can you give me the cliff notes bro?
[QUOTE=navy]Implying his teams werent stacked as well?[/QUOTE]
[B]Who said that? Anyways, you think it's as simple as that, or it boils down to it??? You wanna go into that though? Ok...
-In 1979 the Celtics went 29-53, that's the 2nd worst record... In 1980, Bird joins the team and with pretty much the same core roster, they go 61-21,
the best record, and made the ECF.
-In 1981, Cowens is gone, and they get Parish who was already 27 and never viewed as all that (no MVP votes, no all-nba team, not an all-star, so on)... Bird leads them to a championship, outplaying MVP Julius Erving in the "real" Finals and then in the actual Finals should've been named FMVP but whatever.
McHale was a rookie and only started his prime around 1984, people love to name names though.
-In the 1984 Playoffs, most of Bird's teammates were playing well below their standards and Larry carrying them all the way, just for you to see the two sides of the coin: Bird led the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT% (!!! :bowdown:)... Then they beat the mighty showtime Lakers, a better team on paper and expected to be champions.
-In 1986, when everything was clicking, healthy players playing great, McHale at his best, Parish still the same, DJ still good, Ainge coming into his own, Walton off the bench, Wedman and Sichting too... Bird leads what many call the GOAT team, and they completely destroy the whole league, with Larry playing some of the best basketball ever seen, unreal, out of his mind, even got them better somehow when McHale went down.
-It then took lots of serious injuries to teammates and to himself, a bench to laugh at, and some great teams on the rising, to keep Bird from winning more.
Keep mentioning names though, plenty of names that Bird "made"...
Oh, and Larry didn't go around and join two already established superstars in the league, one of them a top5 player (Bird never played with one) and another top10/15. Plus Bron didn't even win in that 1st year and was embarrassing to tell the least.
And again, Bird played in most likely the GOAT conference, and the GOAT era... In 9 healthy seasons he faced/beat more 50+W teams than LeBron in 11, not to mention he went against dynasties, some of the GOAT teams, some other great teams and superstars (76ers, Pistons, Bucks...) while facing the crazy stacked, showtime Lakers on the other conference.
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