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Anti-MJ trolls often say that Jordan faced weak competition and weak athletes.
They don't realize that Jordan played against Kobe, Duncan and Shaq who were still dominating well into the 2000s. LMAO
Well most of these trolls were teens anyway so I'll give them a pass.
[QUOTE=Sarcastic]People who say Jordan is not the GOAT, is the same thing as people who still say the earth is flat.[/QUOTE]
Game. Set. Match.
I don't know how you can discredit...
10 Scoring titles
5 MVPs
1xDPOY
6/6 Rings and 6 FMVPs
14x All Star
10x All NBA 1st team
9x All D 1st team
2x Olympic Gold Medal
NCAA National Champion
[QUOTE=jrong][B]Exactly. There's nobody who has combined on-court dominance with championship results the way he has.
Yes, Bill Russell won 11, but an offensively dominant player beats a defensively dominant one every time.
Wilt didn't win enough.
Kareem is a center and didn't impact the game in as many ways.[/B]
Magic and Bird were surpassed by MJ over time.
Shaq was too lazy.
Timmy has gotten the most of what he is, and that's taken him to a top 10 career, but he still is what he is and isn't what he isn't.
Kobe was too selfish.
LeBron has too many holes in his resume.
Shall I continue?
MJ is, as his statue says, 'the best there ever was and the best there ever will be.'[/QUOTE]
Maybe, but there's also nobody whose combination of dominance and winning matches Russell's either or Kareem's or even Wilt's, despite the relatively few titles. The point is, there is no reason to believe that, beyond a doubt, Jordan's combination has to be the best there ever was. It is up there, but how exactly can someone prove that this is the best?
If an offensively dominant player beats a defensively dominant one every time, shouldn't this be the case with Wilt vs Russell, as well?
And I disagree that Kareem didn't impact the game as much, except if you add media promotion and fame. They changed the rules to hinder his dominance in the NCAA - and still failed miserably, since only a fool would believe that banning the dunk would have a wide effect on a player that talented. He was as all-around a center as there ever was, led the league in 4 different categories (and was very good at his position in 2 more), you could trust him to take the last shot or even the last FT's.
Jordan did a lot of stuff no one else did... just look below at the [I]Top 15 Hanging Jumpshots by MJ[/I]... who else does that?
[URL="http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40750321#p40750321"]Top 15 Hanging Jumpshots by MJ[/URL]
[URL="http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40414797#p40414797"]Top 15 MJ Dunks Over Multiple Contesting Defenders[/URL]
[URL="http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40382395#p40382395"]Partial Collection of MJ Dunks Over All-Time Great Centers[/URL]
People just forget the things he used to do that made him go 6 for 6, etc, etc - they think it was luck or something.
[QUOTE=Psileas]Maybe, but there's also nobody whose combination of dominance and winning matches Russell's either or Kareem's or even Wilt's, despite the relatively few titles. [B]The point is, there is no reason to believe that, beyond a doubt, Jordan's combination has to be the best there ever was. It is up there, but how exactly can someone prove that this is the best?[/B]
[/QUOTE]
People's GOAT lists are partly subjective based on whichever aspect of the game they value more
It's part of the stupid hipster culture that kids think makes them unique, when in actuality it just makes them stupid. It's goes basically like this.
Make any kind of generic statement that most people agree upon, ie: The Beatles Were A Great Band (just a random example). They will them take that and run it like this:
Stage 1: Denial - The Beatles? I never heard of them, why's this guy so enthusiastic abouth. Doesn't he know enthusiasm is totally uncool now?
Stage 2: Retarded Rationalization - LOL, the Beatles couldn't even hear themselves play live, so basically they were just lip syncing all the time. Overrated.
Stage 3: Full Retard Mode - The Beatles weren't even that great. I can name 100 bands better today. They just sucked.
[IMG]http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/24/9b/ae/249baef1852eedf252887ff855895b57.jpg[/IMG]
That and Jordan takes the brunt of frustration from angry LeBron/Kobe stans. They can't blame their own guy and they can't deal with failure. So they need someone to blame, and Jordan's career is so lilly perfect that it drives them crazy, it's unfair to them, so they take shots at it and try to rationalize it in their mind (ie: he couldn't have been that good, no one could be that good, it has to be ESPN that created him ... yes ... yes that makes sense in my brain).
Granted Kobe-Stans have chilled out over the last two years and become a lot more humble. At least compared to before. In 5 years Bran Stans will be in the same place getting hounded by Wiggins Stans or whoever the new hot sh*t is.
[QUOTE=deja vu]Anti-MJ trolls often say that Jordan faced weak competition and weak athletes.
They don't realize that Jordan played against Kobe, Duncan and Shaq who were still dominating well into the 2000s. LMAO
Well most of these trolls were teens anyway so I'll give them a pass.[/QUOTE]
While its not true that he faced weak competition and weak athletes (the talent base is more or less the same nowadays), its definitely not true he was dominating Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq in the 2000s. In his wizard days Jordan was pretty much just chucking it up
[QUOTE=Kvnzhangyay]While its not true that he faced weak competition and weak athletes (the talent base is more or less the same nowadays), its definitely not true he was dominating Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq in the 2000s. In his wizard days Jordan was pretty much just chucking it up[/QUOTE]
Jordan played in the greatest big man era ever ... Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, DRob, Zo, Mutombo, etc. etc. If Jordan didn't play in that era it would be known as the era of the bigs, but his success just overshadowed everything else.
[QUOTE=Soundwave]It's part of the stupid hipster culture that kids think makes them unique, when in actuality it just makes them stupid. It's goes basically like this.
Make any kind of generic statement that most people agree upon, ie: The Beatles Were A Great Band (just a random example). They will them take that and run it like this:
Stage 1: Denial - The Beatles? I never heard of them, why's this guy so enthusiastic abouth. Doesn't he know enthusiasm is totally uncool now?
Stage 2: Retarded Rationalization - LOL, the Beatles couldn't even hear themselves play live, so basically they were just lip syncing all the time. Overrated.
Stage 3: Full Retard Mode - The Beatles weren't even that great. I can name 100 bands better today. They just sucked.
[IMG]http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/24/9b/ae/249baef1852eedf252887ff855895b57.jpg[/IMG]
That and Jordan takes the brunt of frustration from angry LeBron/Kobe stans. They can't blame their own guy and they can't deal with failure. So they need someone to blame, and Jordan's career is so lilly perfect that it drives them crazy, it's unfair to them, so they take shots at it and try to rationalize it in their mind (ie: he couldn't have been that good, no one could be that good, it has to be ESPN that created him ... yes ... yes that makes sense in my brain).
Granted Kobe-Stans have chilled out over the last two years and become a lot more humble. At least compared to before. In 5 years Bran Stans will be in the same place getting hounded by Wiggins Stans or whoever the new hot sh*t is.[/QUOTE]
:applause:
Repped for the effort in this post.
It sums it up totally. We are just old fools that know nothing :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Kvnzhangyay]While its not true that he faced weak competition and weak athletes (the talent base is more or less the same nowadays), its definitely not true he was dominating Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq in the 2000s. In his wizard days Jordan was pretty much just chucking it up[/QUOTE]
[U]He's talking about in 1996-1998[/U]...
that's when a mid-30's Jordan was considered the best player in the world by everybody, AHEAD of Shaq (who had been to the Finals in 1995 and was in his 6th season in 1998)... In contrast, when Shaq went to the Lakers from 2000-2004, Kobe was widely considered INFERIOR to Shaq.
In 1997 and 1998, Jordan caught Duncan's first and second seasons - He never got to play Duncan in the playoffs, but Jordan did defeat Utah in 1998 and that Utah team had beaten a 56-win, Popovich/Duncan/Robinson Spurs team in 5 games in the Western Semis, and then they SWEPT Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers super-team (Shaq, Eddie Jones, Van Exel, and Kobe, to go along with Elden Campbell, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher and Rick Fox)... Jordan beat that Utah team twice.
Here's a decent video quality highlights of MJ vs Popovich and Duncan's Spurs in 1998 regular season.. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQePkBnD0vo[/url]
From that game, here's 35-year old Jordan still with hangtime, making it look easy over contesting Robinson and Duncan.
[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Finishing_Over_Duncan_a_10e37bb5b61b627dcd2e1170b8ae854f.gif[/IMG]
Here's a much younger Jordan dunking on Robinson and getting hit in the face... More dunks of Jordan over Robinson and other all-time great centers [URL="http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40382395#p40382395"]here[/URL].
[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Hard_on_Robinson_f5b81b99e4f7c61e02dbac531ed53f11.gif[/IMG]
as a 40-year old, Jordan dunked on Duncan in the all-star game..
[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Dunks_On_Tim_Du_c637e9b63274127bb966a04f34e07da9.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Psileas]Maybe, but there's also nobody whose combination of dominance and winning matches Russell's either or Kareem's or even Wilt's, despite the relatively few titles. [B]The point is, there is no reason to believe that, beyond a doubt, Jordan's combination has to be the best there ever was. It is up there, but how exactly can someone prove that this is the best?
If an offensively dominant player beats a defensively dominant one every time, shouldn't this be the case with Wilt vs Russell, as well?
And I disagree that Kareem didn't impact the game as much, except if you add media promotion and fame. [/B]They changed the rules to hinder his dominance in the NCAA - and still failed miserably, since only a fool would believe that banning the dunk would have a wide effect on a player that talented. He was as all-around a center as there ever was, led the league in 4 different categories (and was very good at his position in 2 more), you could trust him to take the last shot or even the last FT's.[/QUOTE]
:applause:
MJ stans trigger a backlash with the mythology around MJ. He is one of several GOAT candidates. People act as if he is basketball's version of Gretzky, though. That is a "clear GOAT" and even in that case some people argue Lemieux as the BOAT, even if his GOAT case is weak due to health issues.
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]You mean his statistics born out of the context of high pace offenses in an era of leaguewide defensive inefficiency.
:confusedshrug:
The fact that stating this simple truth will ruffle the feathers of Jordan mythologists just goes to show you the power of his media driven narrative that thrived unchecked for so long.[/QUOTE]
You Ethered so much it's a wonder why you keep coming back
I've been watching the NBA since 1977 and IMO, MJ exceeds the gaudy stats. There's just something about the competitive spirit, the cockiness, the confidence - that no one else I've seen has. Combine the game with the mental and he's GOAT to me.
I've also been privileged to live through the heyday of tennis too - Connors, Borg, McEnroe, Sampras and hands-down, Roger Federer is the best I've seen play - just the best combination of talent, technical (strokes) and movement. If he was mentally strong, he'd be unbeatable.
[QUOTE=juju151111]You Ethered so much it's a wonder why you keep coming back[/QUOTE]
Link?