Coach Thibbs: "When Jordan was playing..."

[QUOTE=3ball]One coach giving his opinion on one specific type of play is not thread-worthy.

[/QUOTE]
The best defensive mind in basketball at the moment is thread worthy. Cant say the same for all the shit you spam.

[QUOTE=navy]The best defensive mind in basketball at the moment is thread worthy. Cant say the same for all the shit you spam.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol: :applause:

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Prime example of why that's bullshit:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KupF3Ml.gif[/IMG]

Jordan had to beat 2 traps/doubles (including one where the Knicks sent their PF or one of their 'bigs' to cut off his baseline drive)... only for him to be met at the basket by a 7 ft shot blocker because there was no 3-sec rule.

And if you watch the whole possession, the Bulls had to beat a full court trap zone to even get the ball past half court:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=330HeLlv52U[/url]

So again... what the f*ck is Thibs talking about? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

You explained it yourself.

The big would not have rotated to stop Jordan's drive because he would have already been there and Jordan would have been more likely to attempt a long jumper.

The traps would also be different since players can freely float without the initial appearance of even guarding another man. Unlike then where they would have to either hard trap or stay at home before it was too late.

[QUOTE=Akhenaten]He's stating what seems to be obvious but truth is most touters of the superior physical 80's/90's don't understand.

The opportunities to get to the rim and finish off isolation plays are much more limited. A physical defender like say a GP being able to dig his hand/elbow into your hip vs a wall of of defenders strongside which is more effective in stopping an individual player from getting to the rim on drives?

The answer SHOULD be obvious, but some people are just stubborn and/or dense. This doesn't necessarily mean Jordan had it easier or his impact on the game from a scoring standpoint would be less today, just his numbers and efficiency.

[B]37 ppg on 54% from a wing player is highly unlikely in this era[/B], especially if that wing player is on a bad team that the defense does not have to respect like the 80's BUlls. The defensive rules are such that it is easier for the defense to force the player that initiates the play to pass as opposed to taking it all the way and finishing.

Jordan would still devastate defenses though by using the MIDDLE PICK AND ROLL. This is really the only way a player can create enough scoring opportunities at the rim to score on HIGH volume and HIGH efficiency (27-30+ ppg, 50+ FG. BY having two shooters in each corner and forcing the big to have to come out higher on the floor (or if he doesn't have a full head of steam towards him sitting in the paint) you can counter the defense being able to load up strong side.

Perfect example is 05-11 Wade, cat quick, super explosive, agile, great handle, great leaper of 1 or two feet, superb body control, great touch around the basket.

Jordan would post 05-11 Wade like seasons regularly in his prime in this era, except he would score 1-3 ppg more because of his superior, vertical jumpshooting and FT shooting.

Wade from 05-11 was 27/7/5 48%

Prime Jordan would be 29-30/6/6 51%

Peak 32/7/7 52%[/QUOTE]

[B][I]Immediately[/I][/B] after the rule changes Kobe (drafted in '96) had his career best scoring season, 35 PPG on his usual mid 40s shooting. Same exact thing happened to Iverson (drafted in '96)- had his career best year with 33 PPG on 45%, which was higher than usual. Durant [I]just [/I]had 32 PPG on 50% shooting while playing for a championship contender.

And you think it's not possible for the GOAT in his prime to do better than that in an era where no one can touch him and he has unimpeded drives to the basket? :wtf:

[QUOTE=DonDadda59][B][I]Immediately[/I][/B] after the rule changes Kobe (drafted in '96) had his career best scoring season, 35 PPG on his usual mid 40s shooting. Same exact thing happened to Iverson (drafted in '96)- had his career best year with 33 PPG on 45%, which was higher than usual. Durant [I]just [/I]had 32 PPG on 50% shooting while playing for a championship contender.

And you think it's not possible for the GOAT in his prime to do better than that in an era where no one can touch him and he has unimpeded drives to the basket? :wtf:[/QUOTE]

Kobe and Iverson were chuckers with bad squads, as was Durant (in a sense) because he had Westbrook out. Sure if Jordan played on teams like that he could put up big numbers, but the assumption Im assuming was that he wasnt.

Which is why he went to 30ppg , not higher. Which is still high scoring for any year.

[QUOTE=navy]You explained it yourself.

The big would not have rotated to stop Jordan's drive because he would have already been there and Jordan would have been more likely to attempt a long jumper.

The traps would also be different since players can freely float without the initial appearance of even guarding another man. Unlike then where they would have to either hard trap or stay at home before it was too late.[/QUOTE]

No offense, but this is just nonsensical jibberish. Thibs says defenses could send their bigs across the lane to help... I show a clip where after Jordan beats one trap, the Knicks send one of their bigs to stunt his drive and force him to pass or shoot, Jordan maneuvers around that only to be met at the rim by a 7ft shot blocker who was unhindered by the 3-sec clear out rule.

So someone is going to have to show me some evidence of any defense that was superior to that. Show me this super secret perimeter player stopping defense that MJ never saw. One example will do.

[QUOTE]Kobe and Iverson were chuckers with bad squads, as was Durant (in a sense) because he had Westbrook out. Sure if Jordan played on teams like that he could put up big numbers, but the assumption Im assuming was that he wasnt.

Which is why he went to 30ppg , not higher. Which is still high scoring for any year.[/QUOTE]

You don't find it odd that since the rule changes perimeter scoring has exploded collectively to all time records? When Jordan was winning scoring title in the 90s, he was usually the only perimeter guy in the top 5 scorers list (including when guys like Kobe and Iverson were in the league). In fact, check out who was doing the bulk of the scoring league wide when he left to play baseball.

Then flash forward to post '06... when was the last time a non perimeter player won the scoring title? When was the last time the top 5-10 scorers in the league weren't perimeter players.

But I'm supposed to believe it's harder now for those guys to get buckets?

Why?

[QUOTE=navy]ISH posters > Thibs in defensive basketball[/QUOTE]
It's a zero-sum game.

The rules have changed, so of course there are things you can do defensively in today's game that you couldn't do in previous eras.

But there are an equal number of things today's defenders [I]can't[/I] do, that they [i]could[/i] in previous eras (i.e. camp in the paint to AWAIT penetration as opposed to having to come help.... be much more physical).

This zero-sum game is evidenced in the NUMBERS - league-wide points-per-possession is the same as it was 30 years ago.

As a sidenote, I think Thibs is wrong here anyway and was probably just giving some red meat to an ignorant reporter - because it's clear as day - the defenders were already there AWAITING the penetrator, so there was no need to bring anyone over from the weak side anyway.

Like, I literally have 150 more of these showing the defender already there, waiting...

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_showing_the_of_ad54d908ed26a7b5c927e16a93d1d5fd.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=The Immortal]3ball >>>>> Thibs on basketball. Nothing to see here.


INB4 chest to chest.[/QUOTE]
Don't forget off ball passing and the most production ever produced by a producer....

read the links i posted in an earlier thread from sports illustrated. byron scott, larry bird, and ainge specifically state today's defenses are tougher and the spacing is worse, especially in the paint.

also read the bit on colangelo and the advanced defenses of today e.g. zones and traps.


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2014/C1vDMk.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2014/WmQJwT.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2014/0C1BeO.gif[/IMG]

^^^^ absolutely HORRIBLE defense. everything is weakly contested and the 3PT line isn't even defended.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoGmMx8Ejrw[/url] (here, we see that you cannot double team a perimeter player without the ball in their hands, which in turn makes it more difficult to play help defense, hence isolation defense. no consistent double teams or traps).

jordan would still be a good player today, but his shooting percentages would all be down.

[QUOTE=navy]Kobe and Iverson were chuckers with bad squads, as was Durant (in a sense) because he had Westbrook out. Sure if Jordan played on teams like that he could put up big numbers, but the assumption Im assuming was that he wasnt.

Which is why he went to 30ppg , not higher. Which is still high scoring for any year.[/QUOTE]

just read what former players and coaches have to say about yesteryears defensive schemes:
[quote]Three key participants in the storied Lakers-Celtics rivalry who still hold lofty positions in the game—Bird, Byron Scott and Danny Ainge—talked to the Sporting News about the NBA, then and now. The three agree with the widely held perception that today’s players are superior athletically but less skilled in the basics. They admit defense is emphasized more today.
[B]“All you have to do is look at the stats,” Bird says. “There’s better defense now."[/B]

[B]“Offenses are a little more complex because the defenses have forced that,” Ainge says. “In the ’80s, defense was important but you didn’t do as much double-teaming, you didn’t do as much trapping. You played guys straight up."[/B]

[url]http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/stor...finals-meeting[/url][/quote]

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]I watched a 36 year old run down Kobe Bryant basically get any look he wanted last night. He just missed most of the shots, but they were great looks for the most part.
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You are out of your mind.

Kobe made some nasty shots but if you think 22 foot fallaways are the looks he and the Lakers want they won't win a game this year. He took 12+ ill advised shots last night. Some went in. Most didn't.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]

but his (Jordan's) shooting percentages would all be down.

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See, this is IMPOSSIBLE....

Today's players take an optimal shot allocation of 3-pointers, FT's and at-rim looks - it is well-known that this shot allocation maximizes shooting efficiency.

Contrastingly, mid-range shots are considered the toughest, lowest percentage shots and are avoided like the plague in today's game.

[B]But in Jordan's era, contested mid-range shots were the biggest component of his shot allocation - So despite having a shot allocation that today would be considered horrific, Jordan shot very well.
[/B]
[B]In today's game, he would have a more optimal shot allocation like everyone else (threes, FT's and at-rim looks), so his shooting percentage would be much higher today.
[/B]
The funny thing is that most fans don't understand that today's optimal shot allocation of 3-pointers, FT's and at-rim looks is only possible, and only came about because the spacing ALLOWED and facilitated this shot allocation... it wasn't some genius invention... just like the defensive strategies, the optimal shot allocation strategy resulted from the rule changes... this is fact - if you don't want to believe it, remain ignorant about the game.

[QUOTE=The Immortal]3ball >>>>> Thibs on basketball. Nothing to see here.


INB4 chest to chest.[/QUOTE]

:roll:

MJ stans are having a complete meltdown it is glorious to watch

:roll: :roll:

Jordan is a MYTH

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2014/C1vDMk.gif[/IMG]

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Jordan dunking on an unathletic white guys, weak era confirmed... not impressed. Majerle isn't even playing defense and lol at the second guy.

[COLOR="White"]yea I'm having fun with this[/COLOR]