66-67 When Wilt Finally Had a Roster that Equaled Russell's

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]He was silent, man. Nobody knows who he is. Very seldom gave interviews, avoided the limelight, hated glitz.

Never as great as Oscar Robertson or Jerry West..... but he was right behind them and always surrounded by great, great teams... STACKED teams.... and he was more than glad to make a bench guy shine when he got the hot hand.[/QUOTE]

Hondo was a better player than Jones. Jones was a great shooter that could fit well into almost any system, but Hondo could do it all, on top of being one of the best perimeter defenders ever.

So he won once against Russell, big fvcking deal. :whatever:

Russell owned his ass so many times I'd believe Russ if he said he took pity on the poor fella. :yaohappy:

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]dude was Top 50 with a ROCKET

[img]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31xEvXGVcML.jpg[/img]

All players and coaches knew what he was.

Fearless, great defense, very very smart on the court, blazing fast until '68, amazing bank shot..... 10 rings.
[SIZE="5"]I severely doubt Russell wins [B][I]any[/I][/B] rings in the '60s without Sam Jones[/SIZE].[/QUOTE]

Russell himself is Sam Jones' biggest fan, and as indicated by the statement presented by Laz above, was critical to the Celtics success, but I cannot agree with this statement. Sam Jones was not a dominant playoff contributor until 1962. That's when his legend began. The '60 and '61 titles were won with him basically playing a Mario Chalmers' type role.

Wilt sucks. Wish he was never a laker

[QUOTE=JohnMax]Does Bill Russell have stans?[/QUOTE]
yes. a guy named G.O.A.T in this forum.

oh and Wilt >> Russell

[QUOTE=Uncle Drew]11 vs 2.[/QUOTE]

:applause:

/thread

[QUOTE=AnaheimLakers24]Wilt sucks. Wish he was never a laker[/QUOTE]

So no 33 game win streak, no beating Kareem's Bucks, no winning the title that year. West retires without a ring. Nice.

[QUOTE=24-Inch_Chrome][quote=Uncle Drew]
11 vs 2.[/quote]

:applause:

/thread[/QUOTE]

10 vs 6

[QUOTE=jlip]Russell himself is Sam Jones' biggest fan, and as indicated by the statement presented by Laz above, was critical to the Celtics success, but I cannot agree with this statement. Sam Jones was not a dominant playoff contributor until 1962. That's when his legend began. The '60 and '61 titles were won with him basically playing a Mario Chalmers' type role.[/QUOTE]

yeah maybe so.

OP is one of the few posters who deserve smacking to death.

It's been years you idiot. Call it quits. Stop. No-one ever will care Wilt in a way you want from us. Stop!!!

[QUOTE=jlip]Russell himself is Sam Jones' biggest fan, and as indicated by the statement presented by Laz above, was critical to the Celtics success, but I cannot agree with this statement. Sam Jones was not a dominant playoff contributor until 1962. That's when his legend began. The '60 and '61 titles were won with him basically playing a Mario Chalmers' type role.[/QUOTE]
Like I said before when I was in a hurry.... maybe so.

But the flip side is even worse for anybody who argues the Celtics weren't stacked beyond anything ever seen. Those early '60s teams had these guys.
[B][I]So it's not like Sam was even needed at that point.[/I][/B]

17 Gene Conley PF
[B]14 Bob Cousy PG HoF [COLOR="Red"]Top 50[/COLOR]
[/B]20 Gene Guarilia SF
15 Tom Heinsohn PF HoF
[B]25 K.C. Jones PG HoF
[/B]24 Sam Jones SG HoF Top 50
18 Jim Loscutoff SF
[B]23 Frank Ramsey SG HoF[/B]
6 Bill Russell C
16 Tom Sanders SF HoF
[B]21 Bill Sharman G HoF [COLOR="Red"]Top 50[/COLOR]
[/B]
They had so many guards - all 4 Hall of Famers and 2 of them TOP FIFTY GUARDS - that Sam just sat on wood.

Bringing up Russell's HOF teammates is silly when several of those guys are only in there because of Russell.

7.4ppg, 3.5rpg, 4.3apg on 39%, never made an all star game, yet still made the HOF.

Basically if you played with Russell and didn't suck, you made it in to the HOF. Citing HOF counts is disingenuous imo.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]Bringing up Russell's HOF teammates is silly when several of those guys are only in there because of Russell.

7.4ppg, 3.5rpg, 4.3apg on 39%, never made an all star game, yet still made the HOF.

Basically if you played with Russell and didn't suck, you made it in to the HOF. Citing HOF counts is disingenuous imo.[/QUOTE]
I severely doubt Russell had anything to do with Sharman or Cousy's status in the Hall. They were making it there on their own.

Nor do stat lines tell us anything. Does anyone doubt Timmy, Manu or Tony could have had more stats in their career?

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]I severely doubt Russell had anything to do with Sharman or Cousy's status in the Hall. They were making it there on their own.
[/QUOTE]

Oh for sure, and Sharman and Cousy aren't the only ones you could say that about.

[QUOTE]Nor do stat lines tell us anything. Does anyone doubt Timmy, Manu or Tony could have had more stats in their career?[/QUOTE]

100% agree. That's why I think it's silly when people use stat lines to say Wilt outplayed Russell(happens all the time). The Celtics played as a true team, like the Spurs. Also, K.C. Jones is a good example of a player who puts up terrible stats, yet is still a great player.

It's not just with Russell either; I've seen people use stat lines to compare Greer and Sam Jones, as if that's fair to Jones.

Cousy though,

*incoming rant*

Cousy has to be one of the most overrated players ever. I see people rating him in the top 20 players ever; in terms of what he did for the game? - maybe; in terms of how good he actually was - I don't see it.

The 50's Celtic offenses had more to do with Ed Macauley than they did Cousy, but Cousy - being the more visible player - soaked up most of the credit. The offense tanked when Macauley left, but for some reason people tend to ignore that.

How many other top 20 player's(guard) offenses consistently suck like this?

*Percentile Rank(higher is better)

Cousy
[CODE]
[COLOR="Green"]80.00
88.89
100.00
100.00
100.00
71.43[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]42.86 [/COLOR](no more Macauley)
[COLOR="Red"]14.29
42.86
42.86
0.00
25.00
0.00[/COLOR][/CODE]

Magic?
[CODE]
[COLOR="Green"]100.00
72.73
95.45
100.00
81.82
100.00
100.00
100.00
95.45
100.00
100.00
84.62[/COLOR]
[/CODE]

Oscar?
[CODE]
[COLOR="Green"]100.00
100.00
100.00
100.00
100.00
75.00
88.89
90.91
100.00[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]30.77[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Green"]100.00[/COLOR] (Kareem)
[COLOR="Green"]93.75
75.00
100.00[/COLOR]
[/CODE]

West?
[CODE]
[COLOR="Red"]14.29[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Green"]75.00
62.50
87.50
62.50
100.00
55.56
100.00
92.31[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]46.15[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Green"]81.25
100.00
93.75[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]37.50 [/COLOR](only played 31 games)
[/CODE]

Thomas?
[CODE]
[COLOR="Red"]27.27[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Green"]77.27
54.54
100.00
63.64
72.73
63.64
77.27
75.00
61.54
57.69[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]46.15
34.62
15.38[/COLOR]
[/CODE]

Nash?
[CODE]
[COLOR="Red"]50.00[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Green"]78.57
89.29
100.00
100.00
100.00
100.00
96.55
100.00
96.55
96.55
100.00
72.41[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Green"]72.41[/COLOR] (offense fell to 29/30 when he left)
[COLOR="Green"]72.41[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]31.03[/COLOR] (only played 10 games)
[/CODE]

Same can be said for Sam Jones(recently), Heinsohn, Ramsey, Howell, Nelson. All of those guys are overrated imo. The Celtics won in spite of their offense, not because of it. Sam is an exception as he was actually a pretty good defender.

The truly underrated Celtics players are guys like Satch Sanders, Hondo, K.C. Jones, and Bill Sharman. Those were the guys that were actually winning games for the Celtics, not that first group of guys.

History won't see it that way, as history looks at stat lines to find the best players, but that's the way it was.

KC Jones, Frank Ramsey, and Tom Sanders aren't anywhere near HOF level players. Zero all-star appearances between them. These guys were just role players. Honestly even Bill Sharman and Tom Heinsohn are barely HOF on another team. You have to remember back then a conference of 4-5 teams had 10-11 all-stars so any above average starter was an all-star. Guys who didn't make all-star games really weren't very good at all.

Cousy and Havlicek are 1st ballot and Sam Jones would make HOF on every team as well but that's it. The rest of the guys had their careers DEFINED by Bill Russell.

That ladies and gentlemen is the truth.