Accomplishments Thru 29 Years Old: MJ vs. Lebron

[QUOTE=hahaitme]

3ball, what do you take from this video?

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM_eCnTNt1Q[/url]

[/QUOTE]
the video says that some players don't like zone defense - that's not meaningful.

[I]all[/I] players think it's harder to score against no-spacing.. [I]all[/I] players think it's harder to score against higher physicality, hand-checking and paint-camping.

and there are far more videos saying these things, because all players think these things, not just a few.

also, today's NBA allows zone defense, EXCEPT inside the paint - in the paint, players must remain within [url=http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html][u]armslength[/u][/url] of their man [I]at all times[/I].. this is the very definition of man-to-man defense - a very [I]strict[/I] version of man-to-man.

otoh, in previous eras, the NBA [I]allowed[/I] a zone inside the paint - defenders DIDN'T have to be within armslength of their man to remain in the paint and could legally paint-camp.. all coaches in previous eras foolishly ran offenses that didn't shoot threes and positioned players close to the rim instead, which [i]activated[/i] legal-paint camping, as stipulated in [url=http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html][COLOR="Blue"]Rule 2b[/COLOR][/url] of the Illegal Defense Guidelines - this rule allowed defenders to paint-camp with no time restriction if their man was in the paint already, or within 3 feet of either side.

paint-camping IS playing a zone inside the paint.

Tell me this niqqa didn't 5-star his own thread.:facepalm

[QUOTE]You said "Accomplishments" but then you just listed stats.

Yes, Jordan has better stats, but what about the accomplishments?[/QUOTE]

Exactly. :oldlol:

[B][U]Accomplishments, not stats, through 29 years old[/U][/B]

Rings: MJ 2, LJ 2
MVP's: LJ 4, MJ 3
FMVP: LJ 2, MJ 2
Finals: LJ 5, MJ 2
ECF's: LJ 6, MJ 4
ECSF's: LJ 9, MJ 5
DPOY: MJ 1, LJ 0
All-NBA 1st team: LJ 8, MJ 7
ROY: both were ROY
All-Defense 1st team: MJ 5, LJ 5
Best record: LJ 3, MJ 1
Losing seasons: MJ 3, LJ 1
Missed playoffs: LJ 1, MJ 0
First round losses: MJ 3, LJ 0

Some key points to remember when looking at the above:

*LeBron entered the league at 19 while MJ did so at 21, although LeBron did nothing in terms of all-time rankings in his first two years and had his by far two worst team seasons in his first two years. Since LeBron turned 21, his teams have, with him on the court, been no worse than a 50 win pace and a second round appearance.
*Jordan missed almost all of the 86' season.
*Jordan accomplished exactly nothing in terms of all-time rankings at ages 31 and 32. LeBron presumably will add to his legacy during those years.
*Jordan was excellent in his mid-30's. Jordan from ages 33-35 won 3 rings, 2 MVP's, 3 FMVP's and his team had the best record each year.
*Jordan did nothing in terms of all-time rankings from ages 35-40.

So LeBron actually is ahead of MJ's pace at this point. However, he will have to achieve a lot to match what MJ did from 1996-1998 alone. He presumably will, though, have the advantage of not retiring prematurely multiple times. LeBron will add to his legacy in 2016 and 2017 and he, depending on how he ages, could also move the needle from ages 35-40 (look at Kareem or Duncan as examples). In other words, while LeBron would have to keep up a strong pace to match MJ from 1996-1998 the likelihood that LeBron will not flake out and retire on a whim twice will give him extra years to add to his legacy that MJ deprived himself of.

LeBron definitely has an opportunity to put together a resume equal to or superior to Jordan's--and this is what has MJ stans like 3ball shook. :D

[QUOTE]“All you have to do is look at the stats,” Bird says. “There’s better defense now."
“In the ’80s, defense was important but you didn’t do as much double-teaming, you didn’t do as much trapping. You played guys straight up. Defense is more focused upon in today's game. "[/QUOTE]

Scoring is down substantially from the 80's. Comparing raw scoring stats from the 80's to the 21st century is as disingenuous as doing so from the 60's to the 80's. MJ stans never do that because then Wilt mops the floor with MJ.

You know someone's good if you have Jordan stans writing essays trying to disparage him.

[QUOTE=3ball].
[SIZE="3"][B]Whatever the Accomplishments Are, Far Less Was Required From Lebron for His:[/B][/SIZE]


[SIZE="3"][U]Regular Season Thru Age 29:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]LB[/B]: 27.4 PPG, 7.1 RPG, 6.9 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.8 BPG, 49.6 FG%, 58.1 TS%, 116 ORtg, 27.7 PER, 0.243 WS/48
[B]MJ[/B]: 32.3 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 5.9 APG, 2.7 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 51.6 FG%, 58.9 TS%, 121 ORtg, 29.8 PER, 0.274 WS/48


[SIZE="3"][U]Playoffs Thru Age 29:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]LB[/B]: 28.0 PPG, 8.4 RPG, 6.4 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 48.2 FG%, 57.8 TS%, 116 ORtg, 27.7 PER, 0.242 WS/48
[B]MJ[/B]: 34.7 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 6.6 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 50.1 FG%, 58.1 TS%, 119 ORtg, 29.6 PER, 0.258 WS/48


[SIZE="3"][U]Finals Thru Age 29:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]LB[/B]: 24.1 PPG, 8.7 RPG, 6.4 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.55 BPG, 46.3 FG%, 31.2% 3 PT
[B]MJ[/B]: 36.3 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 7.9 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.76 BPG, 52.6% FG, 40.7% 3 PT


The above can ONLY mean that Lebron had a TON more help than Jordan.. :confusedshrug:
.[/QUOTE]

Another solid post by 3ball.

Jordan = 6/6 GOAT that molded Pippen into a winner

Bron = 2/5 Colluder beta that will never be GOAT

Deal with it.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24][B][COLOR="Red"][U][I]what coaches say[/I][/U][/COLOR][/B]:
Three key participants in the storied Lakers-Celtics rivalry who still hold lofty positions in the game

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^3ball rn

[QUOTE=3ball].
[SIZE="3"][B]Whatever the Accomplishments Are, Far Less Was Required From Lebron for His:[/B][/SIZE]


[SIZE="3"][U]Regular Season Thru Age 29:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]LB[/B]: 27.4 PPG, 7.1 RPG, 6.9 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.8 BPG, 49.6 FG%, 58.1 TS%, 116 ORtg, 27.7 PER, 0.243 WS/48
[B]MJ[/B]: 32.3 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 5.9 APG, 2.7 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 51.6 FG%, 58.9 TS%, 121 ORtg, 29.8 PER, 0.274 WS/48


[SIZE="3"][U]Playoffs Thru Age 29:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]LB[/B]: 28.0 PPG, 8.4 RPG, 6.4 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 48.2 FG%, 57.8 TS%, 116 ORtg, 27.7 PER, 0.242 WS/48
[B]MJ[/B]: 34.7 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 6.6 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 50.1 FG%, 58.1 TS%, 119 ORtg, 29.6 PER, 0.258 WS/48


[SIZE="3"][U]Finals Thru Age 29:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]LB[/B]: 24.1 PPG, 8.7 RPG, 6.4 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.55 BPG, 46.3 FG%, 31.2% 3 PT
[B]MJ[/B]: 36.3 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 7.9 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.76 BPG, 52.6% FG, 40.7% 3 PT


The above can ONLY mean that Lebron had a TON more help than Jordan.. :confusedshrug:
.[/QUOTE]
If this is to say the college player Jordan that retired , and could of had 9 chips , but only had 6 compared to Lebrons two.... and comparing his career stats to Lebron still proves his GOAT status over players like Kobe stands, I will see 5 more years of these threads. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Straight_Ballin]Another solid post by 3ball.

Jordan = 6/6 GOAT that molded Pippen into a winner

Bron = 2/5 Colluder beta that will never be GOAT

Deal with it.[/QUOTE]

Molded [I]Pippen[/I] into a winner? When was Pippen ever a loser? He did not even have a losing season in his career until his final season when he was 38 barely played due to injuries. Pippen did not lose in the first round until his 12th season. Pippen was in the conference finals 9 times in 17 years. Yet Jordan made Pippen a winner? I think you have it backwards. It was MJ who was a perennial loser prior to Pippen.

Speaking of "molding" a winner, is that not what LeBron did with Bosh and what he is now doing with Love and Irving? Like Pippen's teammate, these are guys who had no team success prior to pairing with LeBron.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Molded [I]Pippen[/I] into a winner? When was Pippen ever a loser? He did not even have a losing season in his career until his final season when he was 38 barely played due to injuries. Pippen did not lose in the first round until his 12th season. Pippen was in the conference finals 9 times in 17 years. Yet Jordan made Pippen a winner? I think you have it backwards. It was MJ who was a perennial loser prior to Pippen.

Speaking of "molding" a winner, is that not what LeBron did with Bosh and what he is now doing with Love and Irving? Like Pippen's teammate, these are guys who had no team success prior to pairing with LeBron.[/QUOTE]

It's been confirmed in several books and interviews with former Bulls players that Jordan relentlessly worked with Pippen and make Pippen cover him every practice and that he had Pippen come to his house on a daily basis to work out and to teach. Had Jordan not gotten Pippen, he would have gotten someone else of equal moldable mindset and willingness to shape. Nothing would have changed to effect his 6/6 perfection.

Bron on the other hand turned poor Bosh to a spot up 3 point shooter for the most part, and now he's doing the same thing to Kevin Love. If Bron wasn't such a joke of a mentor, then players like West would not have done what they did. Did Bron have Bosh coming to his house everyday to practice BEFORE practice like Jordan did with Pippen? Nope. Don't ever compare the mentorship of the GOAT to the likes of Bron.

[QUOTE=Straight_Ballin]Had Jordan not gotten Pippen, he would have gotten someone else of equal moldable mindset and willingness to shape. Nothing would have changed to effect his 6/6 perfection.
[/QUOTE]

So why hasn't he done so in Washington or Charlotte? :lol He can't even "create" an all-star let alone an all-time great.

Pippen was the #5 pick and picked ahead of Kevin Johnson, Reggie Miller, Reggie Lewis, Horace Grant and Kenny Smith long before he ever met Mike. When someone is drafted that high, what do you think they are projected to be? Other teams wanted him, including Russell's Kings and Detroit. Pippen went from handing out towels to the #5 pick in a span of a few years. Yet that drive and determination is ignored to promote Jordan mythology.

[QUOTE]Bron on the other hand turned poor Bosh to a spot up 3 point shooter for the most part, and now he's doing the same thing to Kevin Love. Bron is such a joke of a mentor, that players like West would not have done what they did. [/QUOTE]

So why do so many players want to play with LeBron? I am not aware of any other player in history who has had so many players willing to flock to him. Jordan was so hated by his teammates early in his career they would move when he sat on the bench to be as far away as possible from him. Jordan would not even speak to some of his teammates. :roll: LeBron clearly is a superior teammate to Jordan.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]So why hasn't he done so in Washington or Charlotte? :lol He can't even "create" an all-star let alone an all-time great.

[B]Why should he at this stage? He already cemented himself and achieved greatness when he played.[/B]

Pippen was the #5 pick and picked ahead of Kevin Johnson, Reggie Miller, Reggie Lewis, Horace Grant and Kenny Smith long before he ever met Mike. When someone is drafted that high, what do you think they are projected to be?

[B]Can you name other players in history drafted that high that were not anywhere close to the player Pippen was? I can. Pippen's place in the draft is rather moot. He became the player he was once he entered the NBA due to Jordan and it's not even debatable.[/B]

Other teams wanted him, including Russell's Kings and Detroit. Pippen went from handing out towels to the #5 pick in a span of a few years. Yet that drive and determination is ignored to promote Jordan mythology.

So why do so many players want to play with LeBron? I am not aware of any other player in history who has had so many players willing to flock to him. Jordan was so hated by his teammates early in his career they would move when he sat on the bench to be as far away as possible from him. Jordan would not even speak to some of his teammates. :roll: LeBron clearly is a superior teammate to Jordan.

[B]Because Lebron has put the precedent forward that it is OK to collude and acceptable. Kevin love has now accepted the title of ring chaser for joining Lebron. When the celtics did it, people were asking some questions but it wasn't until Lebron joined Wade that people were up in arms about it. If Bron was a superior teammate, he would have helped his teammates and himself get more than 2 rings, unlike Jordan who made sure that Pippen achieved perfection in the finals, enabling Pippen to have a 6/6 on his resume as well.[/B] [/QUOTE]

:no:

[QUOTE]
Why should he at this stage? He already cemented himself and achieved greatness when he played.
[/QUOTE]

Simple, he is the ultimate competitor. MJ is a guy who hates losing--at anything. This is someone who bought a Pac Man machine to practice so he would not lose to Brad Sellars anymore. He practiced ping pong because he was losing ping pong games with the Dream Team. He competed with Pippen over Madonna and over dick sizes. Do you really think he went to Washington and then Charlotte to preside over lousy franchise? No, he aspires to win championships and become the preeminent owner just like he wanted to be the best GM and before that the best player. He simply can't, because he is human, "create" an all-time great and that is why his teams have been perennial losers in Washington and Charlotte. If he could "create" a legend he would have; he can't even create an all-star.

[QUOTE]Can you name other players in history drafted that high that were not anywhere close to the player Pippen was? I can. Pippen's place in the draft is rather moot[/QUOTE]

No, it is not moot. It is reflective of what he was projected to be. Again, he was taken over Kevin Johnson and Reggie Miller and several other good players. A player taken that high is expected to be a perennial all-star at minimum.

[QUOTE]
Because Lebron has put the precedent forward that it is OK to collude and acceptable[/QUOTE]

So LeBron now sets precedents for other players? "Alpha" as hell! :bowdown: Why just LeBron? Why don't players follow Durant, Paul, Carmelo, et al. around?

Funny how OP left out 3P% from regular season and playoffs because LeBron's is better, but included it in the Finals because Jordan's was better.