Printable View
Malone by a bit, but people dont realize how good McHale was. He was a #1 masquerading as #2, because he played with Bird (Wade playing with LeBron is an excellent comparison) and deferred to him.
If McHale had his own team he averages 25/12/2.5 bpg on 55-60% fg in his prime. And no one would automatically assume that Dirk (or Pau Gasol :roll: ) were better than him.
The only 4's better than McHale were Malone, Barkley, Duncan, and KG, with Dirk an arguable case.
[QUOTE=kshutts1]All due to respect to one of the better posters on this site, but...
Are you trying to tell me that Malone was not an offensive foundation? The man that averaged no less than 23ppg for FOURTEEN straight seasons, as his team's unquestioned best player, was not an offensive foundation? Not to mention that those teams, where he was the best player and CLEAR #1 option, were in the playoffs for everyone single one of those 14 seasons.
And honestly, who cares if the points were easy or difficult. He had continued success. If the opposing team can't consistently stop him from getting his easy points... well, those baskets still count towards the final score.
I can't speak on McHale's level of play, as I never saw him... but are some people seriously considering McHale's 3-4 years of really awesome play as testament that he was better than Malone? WTF?[/QUOTE]
I am saying Malone isn't an offensive foundation. And I know that seems weird considering the ridiculous number of points he scored.
But it's your second point that is the reason. I do care how easy the points were, because it's exactly that reason that I have concerns running an offense through him. And I think it defines some of his post season failures because teams knew they could change looks at him and effect his play. I think that's the reason so many of the big situations those Jazz teams were in, the ball wound up in Stockton or even Jeff Hornacek's hands. They may make a decision to go to Karl, but it was more often or not their decision.
And like I said, if we're doing a historical list, some kind of a ranking, then Malone is clearly ahead. But if I'm running the team and I get to choose between these two skill sets, I'd take McHale.
[QUOTE=JohnnySic]Malone by a bit, but people dont realize how good McHale was. He was a #1 masquerading as #2, because he played with Bird (Wade playing with LeBron is an excellent comparison) and deferred to him.
If McHale had his own team he averages 25/12/2.5 bpg on 55-60% fg in his prime. And no one would automatically assume that Dirk (or Pau Gasol :roll: ) were better than him.
The only 4's better than McHale were Malone, Barkley, Duncan, and KG, with Dirk an arguable case.[/QUOTE]
Prime-wise it's close statistically. Longevity-wise, Gasol tops him after this great all-NBA caliber year at age 34. Both won rings as second option. Pau's '10 playoff run is as good as McHale's '86 run. I don't know if Pau is underrated, or McHale is overrated, but something is wrong with the perceptions here.
Also, DIRK ARGUABLE over McHale? What the ****? :oldlol:
[QUOTE=Thorpesaurous]I am saying Malone isn't an offensive foundation. And I know that seems weird considering the ridiculous number of points he scored.
But it's your second point that is the reason. [B]I do care how easy the points were, because it's exactly that reason that I have concerns running an offense through him. And I think it defines some of his post season failures because teams knew they could change looks at him and effect his play.[/B] I think that's the reason so many of the big situations those Jazz teams were in, the ball wound up in Stockton or even Jeff Hornacek's hands. They may make a decision to go to Karl, but it was more often or not their decision.
And like I said, if we're doing a historical list, some kind of a ranking, then Malone is clearly ahead. But if I'm running the team and I get to choose between these two skill sets, I'd take McHale.[/QUOTE]
But an offense was run through him... for probably 16+ years, and it was effective. And in the post season, his numbers dipped slightly, but that's to be expected for most players on good teams, as they're not able to "feast" on weak teams.
Obviously your opinion. I just disagree.
[QUOTE=JohnnySic]Malone by a bit, [B]but people dont realize how good McHale was. He was a #1 masquerading as #2[/B], because he played with Bird (Wade playing with LeBron is an excellent comparison) and deferred to him.
If McHale had his own team he averages 25/12/2.5 bpg on 55-60% fg in his prime. And no one would automatically assume that Dirk (or Pau Gasol :roll: ) were better than him.
The only 4's better than McHale were Malone, Barkley, Duncan, and KG, with Dirk an arguable case.[/QUOTE]
How good to do you consider Scottie Pippen?
[QUOTE=PsychoBe]kevin mchale was one of the greatest post players in nba history, period. he said that even he didn't know what he was going to do in the post before he did it. it was all pure reaction time and instinct.
that said, malone was a two time mvp, the second highest scorer in nba history, and lead his team alongside stockton to two finals appearances. only knock on malone i could think of was the fact that he just couldn't make his free throws in the post-season and that used to always come around to bite the jazz.[/QUOTE]
Good post.
I will say that other than Hakeem, McHale has the best post moves of any big I have seen.
One very fair criticism of Malone that I haven't seen mentioned yet though is his turnovers. I don't necessarily think that makes McHale better, but it was a problem for Malone's team.
[QUOTE=Thorpesaurous]I am saying Malone isn't an offensive foundation. And I know that seems weird considering the ridiculous number of points he scored.
But it's your second point that is the reason. I do care how easy the points were, because it's exactly that reason that I have concerns running an offense through him. And I think it defines some of his post season failures because [B]teams knew they could change looks at him and effect his play. I think that's the reason so many of the big situations those Jazz teams were in, the ball wound up in Stockton or even Jeff Hornacek's hands. [/B] They may make a decision to go to Karl, but it was more often or not their decision.
And like I said, if we're doing a historical list, some kind of a ranking, then Malone is clearly ahead. But if I'm running the team and I get to choose between these two skill sets, I'd take McHale.[/QUOTE]
Do you think this had anything to do with Malone turning the ball over so much?
[QUOTE=kshutts1]How good to do you consider Scottie Pippen?[/QUOTE]
Pippen was great. Also a 1A like McHale.
[QUOTE=JohnnySic]Pippen was great. Also a 1A like McHale.[/QUOTE]
So who is better... Doc or Pippen? Wilkins or Pippen?
Just unusual to see the "could have been" argument for a player. Mostly, we deal with what did happen.
[QUOTE=JohnnySic]Malone by a bit, but people dont realize how good McHale was. He was a #1 masquerading as #2, because he played with Bird (Wade playing with LeBron is an excellent comparison) and deferred to him.
If McHale had his own team he averages 25/12/2.5 bpg on 55-60% fg in his prime. And no one would automatically assume that Dirk (or Pau Gasol :roll: ) were better than him.
The only 4's better than McHale were Malone, Barkley, Duncan, and KG, with Dirk an arguable case.[/QUOTE]
[B]Please...
Only seasons you can even argue that whole masquerading thing is 1986 and 1987... Still, Bird scored more in both of those years...
In '86 the team was unreal considering each player's "level" at the time. Everybody totally in synch, everyone sharing the wealth, crazy ball-movement, Bird playing like Neo on the Matrix, everywhere without overdoing it, within the flow realizing what he had around him, keeping everything together, giving up his shots and putting egos aside.
Then in '87 they tried to do the same but it just wasn't the same. No bench, players getting older, Parish and Ainge not close to 100% for the Playoffs, McHale with a broken foot... Bird had to step up and carry the load once again.
You gotta realize that peak McHale was extremely close to unstoppable 1on1 in the post... As the clear-cut #1 option? You can bet your ass he's going to get doubled more often than not, and most times McHale tried to do too much while his passing from the post left much to be desired. Even though he was a smart player and not a bad passer, he turned into a blackhole plenty (his nickname) and has more TO's than assists for his career.
Plus, Kevin would hit lots of open jumpers, faders from the post, pretty good FT shooter too... But he wasn't that good at the pick-n-pop/roll game, not a killer on the break, not the player to do it from the triple-threat...
Just wouldn't be the same without a player like Bird to take most attention for himself or to set Kevin up for all those bunnies and such.
If anything, Bird was the one deferring to him.
Kevin didn't have that killer mentality either.
Peak McHale is one of the very best #2 options ever, but imho, that shouldn't be stretched any (or much) higher.
Give him the "space" to operate in the post, let him have his rebounds/putbacks, let him connect on some open jumpers, hit him quickly down-low after he gets position for the "easy" bucket... You're more than good to go, he'll play great defense on his man and good team D, block a couple of shots, could move the ball if rightly influenced, so on...
12 rebounds is clearly a stretch. McHale was a pretty good rebounder, but not at that level, not the type of banger inside either; long arms and pretty mobile but not very strong or all that physical.
Great overall defense but like I've said, not that type of bigman defensive anchor either.
He would score around 26 but efficiency would've dropped and don't be thinking his attempts would've rise much due to the whole doubling and passing aspect...
TO's would've definitely been a problem.
No one would assume Dirk's better than him? :rolleyes: Really? I mean, c'mon now...
Peak? It can definitely be argued that McHale's top5 (or #5) for PF's... But it lasted VERY little and considering everything he's not above Duncan, Malone, KG, Barkley, Dirk or Hayes, for their career.
[/B]
I'm taking Mailman. Of the two, I think he's the shorter, more direct path to building a winning team. McHale is the easier one of the two to build a champion with tho. Not taking anything away from Malone when I say that either. I have my doubts if anyone else but Sloan gets the absolute maximum out of Malone's talent.
I don't think either of them are on the Duncan level or even the Dirk/Barkley level but they are right there with KG battling in that 4-6 spot.
I personally take McHale for one season but Malone over the course of a career.
[QUOTE=Rocketswin2013]Prime-wise it's close statistically. Longevity-wise, Gasol tops him after this great all-NBA caliber year at age 34. Both won rings as second option. Pau's '10 playoff run is as good as McHale's '86 run. I don't know if Pau is underrated, or McHale is overrated, but something is wrong with the perceptions here.
Also, DIRK ARGUABLE over McHale? What the ****? :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Dirk is not arguable over McHale. Dirk is better than McHale. Dirk is 2nd GOAT PF.
But McHale in 1986 >>>>>>>>>>>> Gasol in 2010. Gasol had the luck of playing with David Stern in 2010 (they were the Lakers' #2 and #1 options respectively). McHale had to beat David Stern in 1986. Big difference.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]The amount of disrespect Malone gets on this site is ridiculous. He put up elite production for over 15 years, averaged 25/10/3 on 50% for a decade straight, and if he didn't play in the Jordan era, would have had a resume that looked like this
15 All-NBA Teams, 11 first (tied with Kobe for most all time) 2 MVP's, [B]2 Finals MVP's,[/B] and the second most points in NBA history
That's a top 10 resume right there. McHale was an excellent player and had a great peak, but this thread is just an insult to Malone. He's got to be the most disrespected top 20 player of all time on ISH. LeBron, Kobe, and Wilt get a lot of shit, but at least people defend them. Ain't nobody on here stands up for Malone, he's always mentioned in a negative light[/QUOTE]
Must've missed his two championship runs
[QUOTE=Fire Colangelo]Must've missed his two championship runs[/QUOTE]
Must not know how to read either