If today's defenders have more "freedom", then league-wide ORtg should be lower

[QUOTE=GrapeApe]

I'm not saying that peak Shaq > peak MJ, but we all know Shaq's impact went beyond his numbers. Peak Shaq was the most disruptive force the game has ever seen. Peak Shaq + scrubs = title contender.

[/quote]
Shaq never played with scrubs - he played with stacked teams all the way up until he began declining in 2006.. :confusedshrug:

After a 41-41 rookie campaign and missed playoffs in 1993, Shaq landed Penny Hardaway in 1994.. From that point forward, he always played with stacked teams... Always.

Otoh, MJ played with scrubs in 1989 - those Bulls won 47 games - they would've missed the 42-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8 on 54%.. So MJ took a would-be lottery team to the ECF and 6 games with the champion Bad Boys.. That's the same thing Lebron did this year (take a lottery team to 6 games with the champs), except Lebron only had to carry his lottery team starting midway through the playoffs (Kyrie and Love were healthy all RS).. Whereas MJ had to carry his lottery team all season.

Plus, MJ's stats were better.. Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51.0% in the 1989 playoffs are better than Lebron's 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs - MJ has a 5 point scoring edge and a 10 point efficiency edge, while Lebron has a 4 rebound edge and 1.6 assist edge.. MJ's edges are more valuable for a team's #1 scoring option.


[quote=GrapeApe]

Peak Jordan + scrubs = likely first round exit.

[/QUOTE]
Just for comparison sake - we have proof that MJ's 1989 Bulls were more of a 1-man team than Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs:

We've already established that Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7/49 to win 66 games in 2009, while MJ's supporting cast only added enough help to his 33/8/8/54 to win 47 games in 1989.

[COLOR="Navy"]If you think that all 19 of the Cavs' higher win total was due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast)[/COLOR], then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of higher-producing veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.

MJ's 1989 Bulls and the [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s]Jordan Rules[/url] were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast - the superior competition Jordan faced and his 1-man show is underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed, and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.
.

[QUOTE=GrapeApe]Peak Shaq + scrubs = title contender. Peak Jordan + scrubs = likely first round exit.).[/QUOTE]

when has shaq ever carried scrubs ?


Before he got phil and kobe shaq had a stable of all star caliber guards on his teams at all times.. never won anything. He didn't win a ring until he had a top 10 GOAT and a top 15-20 GOAT (who had top 10 GOAT talent but no longevity to attain top 10 career) on his teams.


shaqs impact has to be the most overrated ever.. he could dominate individually but lacked interest/leadership/clutch ability and had glaring, exploitable weaknesses.. people are just in awe of his size and power like hes a king kong exhibit or something.. as far as effectiveness leading to winning, MJ >>>

get them

[QUOTE=tpols]when has shaq ever carried scrubs ?


Before he got phil and kobe shaq had a stable of all star caliber guards on his teams at all times.. never won anything. He didn't win a ring until he had a top 10 GOAT and a top 15-20 GOAT (who had top 10 GOAT talent but no longevity to attain top 10 career) on his teams.


shaqs impact has to be the most overrated ever.. he could dominate individually but lacked interest/leadership/clutch ability and had glaring, exploitable weaknesses.. people are just in awe of his size and power like hes a king kong exhibit or something.. as far as effectiveness leading to winning, MJ >>>[/QUOTE]


truthfully, there's not much that separates kobe from other perimeter superstars during the first threepeat. especially when healthy, if we talk about sheer, unabated impact.

take the lakers first three peat for example.

in 2000, shaq carried one of heaviest burdens in history, right there with hakeem in 1994. his supposed "second best player", kobe, was outscored by multiple players in the finals, including a role player - and yet the lakers still won that series in 6.

how you ask? shaq average 38 & 17 and played elite defense.


you don't think carter, iverson or even tmac could have replicated role player status in 2000, and not win a ring with MDE shaq?


in 2001, the lakers went 15-1 in the postseason, and att, iverson & carter had arguably their greatest postseasons of their careers. people can act like kobe wasn't replaceable, but these guys would've done the same thing kobe did in his role (run the laker offense aka play off shaq).


2002? this was kobe's worst season as a "superstar". tmac and iverson were probably better anyway, so its not out of the question the lakers STILL three peat.


carter & iverson (even tmac to some degree) all had wear & tear because they had to carry their franchises from day one. playing with shaq would have remedied that, tons.


all in all, kobe is a great player who gets overrated by idiots. there have been tons of "great" players.


[quote]Before he got phil and kobe shaq had a stable of all star caliber guards on his teams at all times.. never won anything. He didn't win a ring until he had a top 10 GOAT and a top 15-20 GOAT (who had top 10 GOAT talent but no longevity to attain top 10 career) on his teams.[/quote]


and just for reference, mj was 1-9 in the playoffs before pippen came to chicago.


so lets set aside the myths and hyperbole for a second.

if shaq wasn't a winner before phil, then jordan was a cancer before pippen and phil.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]in 2006, perimeter players saw a rise in ppg because the elimination of hand checking.
2000-2005 emphasized zone AND handchecking, hence the GOAT era of defense


think about it. look at the percentages, the slow pace albeit efficient defensive rating.


there are very few players who would have dominated that era that ARENT big men.


and by dominating, i mean shooting with incredible efficiency while being elite in every facet of the game (permitting your role).[/QUOTE]

I don't buy into the hype THAT much...clearly the defensive rule changes made it easier for perimeter players to get to the line/basket, but Kobe was putting up huge numbers on top defensive teams in the Playoffs during the 3-peat and he averaged 30/7/6 in 03 with 32 a game in the Playoffs, I believe 06 Kobe would have easily put up similar numbers if he played in the same situation under the old rules. You could point to his 2005 season, but he was playing injured and under different coaches with no real system in place.

And the handchecking was eliminated after the 03-04 season, when Mark Cuban used the Pistons' defense in the finals on Kobe as an argument to get the league to change the rules.

Of course Carter, Iverson, Tmac etc would have a good shot at winning rings with shaq.. they were all nba talents. Probably not a 3 peat seeing how close LA was to not attaining that in the first place.. like coming back from a 15+ point lead in a game 7 Q4 led by Kobe.. all the spurs where kobe just went off.. kings series that was super tight. There's no telling though.


I mean you could replaced Lebron in 2011 with a prime iguodala and Miami still would've had one of the most dominant defenses ever and won a ring.. does that mean Iggy > Lebron? No .. it just means when you're talking replacing a star on his stacked team with another star.. that means theyre still a stacked team, and thus have a good shot at winning.



the 1-9 stuff is funny because MJ had to go against GOAT level teams where he wasn't favored at all.. shaq has gotten straight swept in series that were thought to be toss ups lol.. its apples and oranges.

[QUOTE=GrapeApe]

[B]You do realize the 3 point line was closer in 1997 right?[/B] I mean, don't let facts get in the way or anything.

[/QUOTE]
That doesn't matter or alter the point being made:

In 1997, teams took the same amount of 3-pointers at the same percentage as teams from today's era (2005-2011), yet ORtg was still the same, even though defenders supposedly had less freedom back then.

So the 3-pointer argument holds no water and the point remains - league-wide ORtg has remained stable for the last 30 years, which proves that it remains equally-hard to score across the eras.

This thread proves all the theories about defense that you new fans have created to downgrade previous era players is complete BS.

[QUOTE=ImKobe]

And the handchecking was eliminated after the 03-04 season, when Mark Cuban used the Pistons' defense in the finals on Kobe as an argument to get the league to change the rules.[/QUOTE]


they emphasized them during the 2005-2006 season.


look it up


[quote]I mean you could replaced Lebron in 2011 with a prime iguodala and Miami still would've had one of the most dominant defenses ever and won a ring.. does that mean Iggy > Lebron? No .. it just means when you're talking replacing a star on his stacked team with another star.. that means theyre still a stacked team, and thus have a good shot at winning.[/quote]


lol at this idiot

the idea miami still gets past chicago with iguadala is downright hilarious.

thanks for the good laugh. :oldlol:


your comparison doesn't even make sense.


all those players i mentioned e.g. replacing kobe during the threepeat, have similar impact. iggy doesn't come close to lebron, who is elite on both sides.


if you had said kevin durant, you may have had some credibility left.


[quote]the 1-9 stuff is funny because MJ had to go against GOAT level teams where he wasn't favored at all.. shaq has gotten straight swept in series that were thought to be toss ups lol.. its apples and oranges.[/QUOTE]

the 1987 celtics weren't legendary or goat. neither were the 1985 bucks.

don't let the facts get in the way though.

[QUOTE=3ball]The extra ground today's defenders must cover makes it EASIER for the offensive player, obviously[/QUOTE]
While just minutes previous....

[QUOTE=3ball][I]Otoh, stable league-wide ORtg proves that it remains equally hard to score across eras.[/I][/QUOTE]

Anybody else see a glaring problem?

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]


and no, shaq won his first ring with kobe playing at role players status. [B][SIZE="3"]the role player kobe averaged just 16ppg in the finals on piss poor efficiency. [/SIZE][/B]


[/quote]
So what was Pippen's 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals?

Or his 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 Finals?

The bias against MJ by current fans is hilarioius... :oldlol:
.

[QUOTE=tpols]when has shaq ever carried scrubs ?


Before he got phil and kobe shaq had a stable of all star caliber guards on his teams at all times.. never won anything. He didn't win a ring until he had a top 10 GOAT and a top 15-20 GOAT (who had top 10 GOAT talent but no longevity to attain top 10 career) on his teams.


shaqs impact has to be the most overrated ever.. he could dominate individually but lacked interest/leadership/clutch ability and had glaring, exploitable weaknesses.. people are just in awe of his size and power like hes a king kong exhibit or something.. as far as effectiveness leading to winning, MJ >>>[/QUOTE]

I understand Shaq won his titles with all time great guards and it was a bit of hyperbole saying he'd contend for a title with scrubs, but my point is that peak Shaq is theoretically the best player in history to build around. He was the ultimate mismatch and completely disruptive on both ends. Yes he had some shortcomings as you mentioned, but it's foolish to dismiss his ability as simply being an enormous man. He was incredibly skilled, quick, agile, and explosive. He ran the floor well and had a terrific basketball IQ. He wasn't the lumbering oaf that your king kong analogy makes him out to be. The game has never seen a player with his combination of abilities.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]While just minutes previous....



Anybody else see a glaring problem?[/QUOTE]
wow bro, ur dumber than i ever realized.
.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]

pippen take over the team i.e. defending.

[/QUOTE]
In the 1991 Finals, MJ guarded Magic Johnson for 14 out of 20 quarters (70%), to Pippen's 6 of 20 quarters (30%).

Specifically, Pippen guarded Magic for 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters of Game 2... the 2nd and 3rd quarters of Game 3... the last 4 minutes of Game 4, and none in Games 1 or 5... Here are all 5 games in their entirety:

Game 1: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddik5aZ02uA[/url]
Game 2: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMTY0xJSwRY[/url]
Game 3: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzLssE0Vcm4[/url]
Game 4: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFcMrcXfCcU[/url]
Game 5: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9B9654H0Cc[/url]


It was MJ's job to guard the opponent's starting PG or SG, depending on who was better.. He locked down PG's like [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9ouMPqEk-s&list=PLl0ny9_3DLnFmdGrXIYboWxY85qDJEjUY&index=14]Tim Hardaway[/url], [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q53GLDrhMkY]Isiah Thomas[/url], John Stockton, [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K2rBgOqGCw&list=PLl0ny9_3DLnFmdGrXIYboWxY85qDJEjUY&index=13]Kevin Johnson[/url], [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg]Gary Payton[/url], Rod Strickland - basically every PG in the league.

Otoh, Pippen only guarded SF's.. He never guarded any other position other than rare one-off's (like when he guarded the slowest PG of all time, Mark Jackson, lol).
.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]While just minutes previous....



Anybody else see a glaring problem?[/QUOTE]
Do you know the meaning of offsetting, or do you just post to prove how dumb you are

Today's spacing offsets current defensive tactics... You've read my posts for a while now, so you should know that.. but ur dumb, so i expect nothing less
.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]

pippen take over the team e.g. in playmaking,

[/QUOTE]
[B]Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):
[/B]
Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[B]Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):
[/B]
Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Red"][I] As you can see, MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of teammates FG's... This is a statistical fact
[/I][/COLOR][/SIZE]