Could Pippen have played PG and averaged 11 apg?

[QUOTE=3ball]It's a travesty that people think Pippen was the better passer.

Pippen's handle was BASIC... Consequently, his assists were of the basic variety that didn't require PG-level handles like many of MJ's assists did.. Otoh, MJ's handle and passes had a point-guard level of nuance and sophistication to them.. That's why he was able to average 30/9/11 as a point guard for 24 games and also 33/7/11 in the 1991 Finals.

Is Pippen capable of starting at point guard or averaging 11 apg?... Obviously not.. Pippen's body was more rigid - he couldn't slide through defenders and create like MJ.. MJ's superior handles and scoring ability put his passing game in a different dimension of sophistication from what Pippen did.. MJ got equal or greater assists while scoring 50% to 120% more.

Anyone that says Pippen is a better passer either doesn't understand basketball or is taking a devil's advocate position because they hate how much MJ is revered.

[COLOR="Navy"]MJ had a point guard-level handle and passing ability - Pippen did not.[/COLOR]
.[/QUOTE]

Pippen could not played PG (of course he is not at MJ skill level) with great success - he could fulfill the position for some periods if needed but this is not his natural position. MJ could of course and still be among the best players on floor.
The Bulls got another forward who could play PG and his name is Tony Kukoc. He played PG in Europe for real and was chosen 3 time European player of the year prior to his NBA debut. When at Bulls he was used as PF and was told to gain 30 pounds. But PF position was not for Tony and he never played PF in Europe or with Yugoslavian/Croatia team.

Jordan wouldn't have averaged 11+ apg for a season playing a winning brand of basketball, but people are kidding themselves if they don't think that '89-'93 Jordan, in a more Jordan-centric offense (not the triangle), would have been at 8+ apg annually. If he dominated the ball like modern wings do (Wade, Lebron, to a lesser extend Kobe), he would easily average 9+ apg in his prime years. He was just too dangerous and made too many things happen on the court not to.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Jordan wouldn't have averaged 11+ apg for a season playing a winning brand of basketball, but people are kidding themselves if they don't think that '89-'93 Jordan, in a more Jordan-centric offense (not the triangle), would have been at 8+ apg annually. If he dominated the ball like modern wings do (Wade, Lebron, to a lesser extend Kobe), he would easily average 9+ apg in his prime years. He was just too dangerous and made too many things happen on the court not to.[/QUOTE]

He isn't a better passer than either Bron or Wade. Those two do it naturally in their game. The only time Jordan averaged 8apg was when he forced it playing PG for a bit of the season. He didn't come close to 8apg again after that one season.

Dominating the ball to incredibly high usage rates while constantly forcing the ball into spots where teammates aren't comfortable shooting is good for 3 - 4 extra assists but it isn't conducive to even winning regular season games. The bulls had their worst ORTG rank of the prime Jordan ('88 - '93) era in '89.

[QUOTE=plowking]He isn't a better passer than either Bron or Wade. Those two do it naturally in their game. The only time Jordan averaged 8apg was when he forced it playing PG for a bit of the season. He didn't come close to 8apg again after that one season.[/QUOTE]

Jordan is indeed a better passer than Wade. And Jordan "only" averaged 8 apg that season because he was only playing a ball dominant PG role for the final 24 games of the season (not the entire season), during which time he averaged 11 apg.

You're deluding yourself if you think that '89-'93 Jordan, handling the ball as much as '06-'13 Wade/Bron, does not average 8+ apg annually.

3ball constantly hating on bron for his stat padding through ball domination leading to losing and acting like MJ wasn't doing the exact same thing in 89

:yaohappy:

[QUOTE=Rocketswin2013]Dominating the ball to incredibly high usage rates while constantly forcing the ball into spots where teammates aren't comfortable shooting is good for 3 - 4 extra assists but it isn't conducive to even winning regular season games. The bulls had their worst ORTG rank of the prime Jordan ('88 - '93) era in '89.[/QUOTE]
The offense was already bad thats why they switched Mj there and they made they made it to the ecf with Mj averaging 8 asts the whole playoffs. Mj led the bulls in the playoffs in asts in 88,89,90,91,93

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Jordan is indeed a better passer than Wade. And Jordan "only" averaged 8 apg that season because he was only playing a ball dominant PG role for the final 24 games of the season (not the entire season), during which time he averaged 11 apg.

You're deluding yourself if you think that '89-'93 Jordan, handling the ball as much as '06-'13 Wade/Bron, does not average 8+ apg annually.[/QUOTE]

Jordan has the highest usage rate ever. At the end of the day, the ball was going through his hands more than anyone either way.
He isn't a better passer than Wade. He didn't make the type of passes Wade did in his career. He didn't consistently have the high apg seasons that Wade did. Wade was throwing inch perfect football passes to Bron, and absolutely insane behind the backs constantly to Zo and Shaq all throughout his career.

[QUOTE=plowking]He isn't a better passer than either Bron or Wade. Those two do it naturally in their game. The only time Jordan averaged 8apg was when he forced it playing PG for a bit of the season. He didn't come close to 8apg again after that one season.[/QUOTE]
What's so had about what Wade and James do? They basically iso then drive and kick.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]What's so had about what Wade and James do? They basically iso then drive and kick.[/QUOTE]

Sure, if you want to sum it up like that, than Jordan did even less.

[QUOTE=plowking]Jordan has the highest usage rate ever. At the end of the day, the ball was going through his hands more than anyone either way.
He isn't a better passer than Wade. He didn't make the type of passes Wade did in his career. He didn't consistently have the high apg seasons that Wade did. Wade was throwing inch perfect football passes to Bron, and absolutely insane behind the backs constantly to Zo and Shaq all throughout his career.[/QUOTE]
Please Mj led his team in asts in 88,89,90,91,93 in 5he playoffs

[QUOTE=plowking]Jordan has the highest usage rate ever. At the end of the day, the ball was going through his hands more than anyone either way.
He isn't a better passer than Wade. He didn't make the type of passes Wade did in his career. He didn't consistently have the high apg seasons that Wade did. Wade was throwing inch perfect football passes to Bron, and absolutely insane behind the backs constantly to Zo and Shaq all throughout his career.[/QUOTE]

Usage rate does NOT show how much time a player has the ball in their hands. Lebron and Wade have had the ball in their hands in terms of clock time WAY more than Jordan did. When you have the ball in your hands that much as a supserstar, and are involved in multiple P&R situations per possession, you are going to rack up assists regardless, because these guys are just that good and will make things happen.

And yes, he is a better passer than Wade. Jordan has thrown fullcourt baseball passes right on the money, halfcourt look-away alley-oops, and other passes Wade hasn't. At the very least, there is ZERO evidence for suggesting Wade is a better passer aside from his apg numbers, which, again, are skewed by how much he dominated the ball from '06-'10.

EDIT: And both Wade and James' assist numbers are helped relative to Jordan's due to not having another 6+ apg guy on the same team doing a lot of handling. That's why Wade's apg dropped from 6.5 to 4.6 Lebron's first season in Miami, and why Lebron's dropped from 8.6 to 7.0 that same year.

Not sure why people think averaging a lot of assists is that great of a thing anyway, especially coming from someone who's already scoring 25+ ppg. Its usually an indication that someone is too ball-dominant. Sure, it works sometime buts its not ideal for a championship team. Individual APG is maybe the most overrated stat there is.

[QUOTE=guy]Not sure why people think averaging a lot of assists is that great of a thing anyway, especially coming from someone who's already scoring 25+ ppg. Its usually an indication that someone is too ball-dominant. Sure, it works sometime buts its not ideal for a championship team. Individual APG is maybe the most overrated stat there is.[/QUOTE]
What's so overrated about it if you don't mind?

Overrated because it's entirely dependent upon someone else finishing a play.

Dunno how to track it, but would be better to see how many "assist opportunities" a player generated, rather than how many of those shots his teammates made.

Edit: Would also be nice to see "points generated", that includes FTs, 2p and 3p shots that were the result of a pass, plus the actual points said player scored.