MJ is the most double-teamed player of all time, besides Wilt

[QUOTE=PHILA]

Yes I was aware of that while compiling the data. But it was not as big a discrepancy as you may think. Jordan was certainly the greatest scorer ever on the move, and [B]plays where he caught the ball and immediately went to work did not count as isolations.[/B] But the plays where he kept the ball for longer than a couple seconds (usually using a jab step) before shooting or driving against a half court defense was what I recorded as isolation play. However the shot chart and especially the playoff clutch data is accurate.

[/quote]
What category is the bolded above categorized under?

From what I can tell, you had 1 category for his drives: isolations

Nonetheless, other than the overstatement of his isolations, I appreciate your work and think it's stellar... I wish the NBA would pay guys to do that type of work for old footage so we have advanced stats for previous eras like we have for today's game.
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[QUOTE=PHILA][url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hScvvOtBOi4&t=1m25s[/url][/QUOTE]

Bob Costas at 1:34...

They get it deep to O'neal...The Pacers hold a team meeting around him. :roll:

The entire Pacer's team literally converged on Shaq as if no other Laker was playing.

Also @ PHILA,

I think some time ago either you or Round Mound (I can't remember who) did a post regarding Barkley being double teamed so much. Was it you?

[QUOTE=jlip]Bob Costas at 1:34...

They get it deep to O'neal...The Pacers hold a team meeting around him. :roll:

The entire Pacer's team literally converged on Shaq as if no other Laker was playing.

Also @ PHILA,

I think some time ago either you or Round Mound (I can't remember who) did a post regarding Barkley being double teamed so much. Was it you?[/QUOTE]
The Shaq clip is only a 4 minute stretch, where Shaq was doubled a total of 4 times and wasn't doubled at the [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hScvvOtBOi4&t=4m07s]4:07[/url] mark, the [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hScvvOtBOi4&t=4m53s]4:53[/url] mark, or the [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hScvvOtBOi4&t=8m05s]8:05[/url] mark.

This doesn't compare to the 9 minutes of incessant double-teaming MJ faced shown in the OP.. The reason Shaq wasn't doubled as much as MJ, is because [I]teams had to pick their poison against the Lakers[/I]: they could double-team Shaq, which opens it up for Kobe, along with three-pointers from Fisher, Horry and Fox - or play Shaq straight up and stay at home on Kobe/Horry/Fisher.. Otoh, opponents didn't have to pick their poison against the Bulls - they could just load up on MJ because he didn't have Kobe or a bunch of 3-point shooters.

Teams opted to play Shaq straight up a lot - he virtually NEVER got doubled every single possession like MJ.. Ever.. Teams couldn't take that risk with Kobe on that team and all the shooters.. Otoh, the "Jordan Rules" meant "[I]double-team MJ every time he catches it[/I]" - no big man ever faced this type of every-single-possession frequency of double-teaming, except Wilt.

Everyone is blindly saying that big men get doubled more, but no one can show me where a big man got doubled for 9 minutes straight every time they caught the ball like I showed in the OP.
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[quote] What category is the bolded above categorized under?[/quote]
Depends on how his movement before getting the ball, for instance whether he [B]cut to the basket[/B], came [B]off a screen[/B] on the weakside, drove out of a [B]post up[/B] play, etc.

A couple of examples:

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUKuRxshqL8&t=1m5s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUKuRxshqL8&t=1m5s[/URL]

For most other players would be a post up or isolation, but given how quickly he turned that corner this goes under the [B]Off Screen[/B] category. Keep an eye on Cartwright's screen that got Jordan the mismatch with Cadillac Anderson.


[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDqJZ96hOBU&t=2m7s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDqJZ96hOBU&t=2m7s[/URL]

This goes under the [B]Isolation[/B] category even though it was a quick iso. Like the clip above, he starts off flashing for a quick look in the post, but when that is not available he comes off a screen for a quick isolation at the top of the key. I know Synergy would probably have plays like this as Off Screen instead of Isolation, so that may be something to keep in mind. That 1587 figure for total iso plays can be misleading if it is interpreted as Jordan being that much of a ball dominant figure. I would say the while Jordan was certainly shot dominant, he was not ball dominant to that extent. Phil Jackson took his offensive game to another level in 1990 with the traingle offense.



[B]The Jordan Rules: The Inside Story of Michael Jordan and the Chicago Bulls[/B] - Sam Smith

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/zKZqZbM.png[/IMG]

[quote]I think some time ago either you or Round Mound (I can't remember who) did a post regarding Barkley being double teamed so much. Was it you?[/quote]

Yes, Barkley with the Sixers is the one guy I have seen who basically commanded an instant double team just by touching the ball inside of the 3 point line. He loved attacking from the left wing. Even though I have seen critics who called him a ball stopper, the team impact data shows him as one of the offensive GOAT's.

Shaq was the most double-teamed player in modern history. Kareem and Wilt were more doubled in the past.

Jordan isn't even close.

[QUOTE=PHILA]Depends on how his movement before getting the ball, for instance whether he [B]cut to the basket[/B], came [B]off a screen[/B] on the weakside, drove out of a [B]post up[/B] play, etc.

[/QUOTE]
Again, you have 1 category for MJ's drives: isolations

That's wildly inaccurate, obviously, and a significant overstatement - there's no way all his drives are isolations, and to assume so is wrong and creates a significant error in the numbers.

[QUOTE=catch24]Shaq was the most double-teamed player in modern history. Kareem and Wilt were more doubled in the past.

Jordan isn't even close.[/QUOTE]
This.

Dude sits there all day watching ONLY Jordan highlights... maybe why his posts are ONLY about Jordan?

He knows nothing outside of Jordan and blatantly makes shit up to prop him. Kinda sad to see a guy use a pro athlete for attention that he's obviously lacking outside the internet...

[quote=PHILA]


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif[/IMG]


[B]Jordan on isolation jump shots, was shooting over 53%
[/B]

[/QUOTE]
MJ's 53% on isolation jumpers is a stark contrast from the 40% and 33% that Lebron shot on isolations in the regular season and playoffs, respectively, [I]and that included shots at the rim[/I], not just jumpers like MJ's 53% represented.

Lebron's 40% and 33% shooting on isolations in RS and PO ranked him 135th out of 315, and 35th out of 39, respectively.

That's how we know MJ could've won the 2015 Finals... He would've shot well over 50% in Lebron's shoes, given all the secluded isolations Lebron enjoyed where he was all alone on the strongside and faced an open paint - MJ never got isolations like that (seen above) where he had the entire strongside to himself AND and open paint - but Lebron enjoyed those kind of iso's for the entire series.

[quote=3ball]Again, you have 1 category for MJ's drives: isolations

That's wildly inaccurate, obviously, and a significant overstatement - there's no way all his drives are isolations, and to assume so is wrong and creates a significant error in the numbers.[/quote]
No those are just isolation drives. Quite a few of his drives also came out of the following plays: [B]Post Up[/B], [B]Off Screen[/B], [B]P&R Ball Handler[/B], [B]Cut To Basket[/B] and were recorded as such on the chart.

[QUOTE=catch24]

Shaq was the most double-teamed player in modern history. Kareem and Wilt were more doubled in the past.

[/QUOTE]
This is complete bullshit - Shaq virtually NEVER got doubled every single possession like MJ.. Ever.. Teams couldn't take that risk because of Kobe and all the shooters (horry, fox, fisher).

Without a guy like Kobe or a bunch of 3-point shooters, teams didn't have to pick their poison against the Bulls and could load up on Jordan... Whereas teams had to PICK THEIR POISON when they played the Lakers - they could double Shaq and let Kobe, Horry, Derek Fisher go off, or they could play Shaq straight-up and stay at home.

Everyone is blindly saying that big men get doubled more, but no one can show me where a big man got doubled for 9 minutes straight every time they caught the ball like I showed in the OP.

If you are looking for his isolation play tendencies, I also posted that in the original thread.


[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9177131&postcount=4"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9177131&postcount=4[/URL]
[B]
[I]*[/I][/B][I]Jordan's shooting tendencies & effectiveness when making a move off the dribble either to the left or right. Also recorded turnovers in each of these instances, including stolen pass outs, offensive fouls, getting stripped by the defense, or being forced into a jump ball (and possession lost). [/I]



[SIZE=4][U][B] Drive Right[/B][/U][/SIZE]

[B]Pull-Up Jumper/Runner/Leaner[/B] - 292 Plays, 35 Fouls, 146/249 FG (58.6%), 14 TOV, 358 Points, 1.23 PPP

[B]Attack Basket[/B] - 225 Plays, 85 Fouls, 107/161 FG (66.5%), 1 TOV, 353 Points, 1.57 PPP

[B]Overall[/B] - 517 Plays, 120 Fouls, 253/410 FG (61.7%), 15 TOV, 711 Points, 1.38 PPP



[SIZE=4][U][B] Drive Left[/B][/U][/SIZE]

[B]Pull-Up Jumper/Runner/Leaner[/B] - 212 Plays, 28 Fouls, 104/189 FG (55.0%), 2 TOV, 250 Points, 1.18 PPP

[B]Attack Basket[/B] - 345 Plays, 109 Fouls, 154/232 FG (66.4%), 34 TOV, 479 Points, 1.39 PPP

[B]Overall[/B] - 557 Plays, 137 Fouls, 258/421 FG (61.3%), 36 TOV, 729 Points, 1.31 PPP

[QUOTE=PHILA]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/PIt8Kg.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/TGZukz.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/jzLx3O.gif[/IMG]


No those are just isolation drives. Quite a few of his drives also came out of the following plays: [B]Post Up[/B], [B]Off Screen[/B], [B]P&R Ball Handler[/B], [B]Cut To Basket[/B] and were recorded as such on the chart.

[/QUOTE]
The first GIF above is a catch-and-go drive and not an isolation, but you categorized this type of shot as an isolation - that's inaccurate - catch-and-go where MJ doesn't hold the ball even for a second and the defender isn't set set are not isolations.

In the 2nd and 3rd GIF's, MJ is double-teamed, but you called them isolations as well - again, that's inaccurate.

I know when I make statistical assertions like OP did I back it up with more than anecdotal video that includes 9 min out of MJs 48,485 min played.

Good GOD OP. How are you so ridiculous? I mean at some point it HAS to sink in right?

Nobody needs to show anyone some arbitrary number of minutes being double teamed. There are tens of thousands of games from some of the best scorers ever....that will never be seen again.

Bob Mcadoo has like 4 games total from his prime with good footage. Im gonna act like I know how much he was double teamed due to footage from one 50 point night?

George Mikan had teams so shook they stalled their way to a 19 point game and forced the creation of the shot clock. Im gonna assume based on a few minutes of footage that teams never doubled him a whole game?

This is an issue that cant be resolved because only the most popular of modern players have enough footage to consider. Jordan has a cult like following uploading everything of note he ever did.

You cant rationally say "We have footage of Jordan doing this and that suggests hes the only one".

The NBA didnt even record most games that aired on tv till Stern suggested it when he was still just a young guy in the league offices working his way up.

Games were shown live and there was no effort to even save highlights. Its one thing I give him credit for. Stern is the reason we have a lot of full game highlights from before the 90s.

But people still listened to the radio as much as watched games even when I was a kid. We used to occasionally have to LISTEN to Bulls games....40 years after the NBA was created.

But im gonna assume I know how often Elvin Hayes was doubled on the Rockets?

Jordan was doubled a lot.

Thats all there is any evidence to suggest. Most ever or most since ____ just isnt worth arguing over.

We dont have the evidence to even begin the discussion.