Predict 2013 Lebron stats in 1993 NBA

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]He doesnt have the isolation game to consistently break free from handchecking. Even today, he needs alot of picks to beat his man off the dribble at times, thats gonna be exasperated if his defender can put his hands on his hip or forearm in his back. He's also not going to be a great post presence, not moreso than today. There were way more legit bigs roaming the paint, and he doesnt have the consistent turnaround/fadeaway game with the footwork that MJ had down there. So major production from the post is unlikely, and paths to the basket wont be unobstructed like today with the no hand rules.

He'd probably average the same as he did in 2013, albeit on a a way lower percentage. Im thinking 27 on 48-49% to go with 7 rebounds/assists. His field goal % spiked from all the transition opportunities generated by the Heat, but outside those Heat years he's pretty much a 48-50% scorer.The 80s would have benefitted Lebron moreseo, the pace and run/gun style would benefit his athleticism and skillset to get out in transition. Alot of perimeter players shot 50% in that period, so he likely would be closer to the 53-55% mark in that era.[/QUOTE]

You are too generous.

I realistically think he would get something like 18-8 on 45%.

[QUOTE=scandisk_]

Those number of rebounds are way too low, A man of Brans size would get 7 rebounds minimum.

I say 26/8/8 on 50%

[/QUOTE]
He'd get less rebounds due to higher physicality.

[I]And without today's 3-point shooting, he wouldn't be able to run screen-roll/drive-and-kick as often - people ignore me when I bring up this point - apparently, they think Lebron would just drive and kick for 2-pointers and it would have the same efficiency as driving and kicking for 3-pointers.
[/I]
But it wouldn't - the lack of 3-point shooting and resulting lower efficiency of drive-and-kicking for 2-pointers is what made post play preferable to screen-roll/drive-and-kick back then.. Without screen-roll promoting the kind of assist-friendly, ball-dominant style he employs today, Lebron would have less assist opportunities.. Unlike Bird and Jordan, Lebron isn't used to getting assists without being ball-dominant..

Not only would he have less assist opportunities without his drive-and-kick, but he would also have to score via post, midrange and isolation like all other scorers back then, and we know for a FACT that his efficiency is piss-poor in all these areas.. So he'd average something like 23/6/5 on 45% shooting - higher physicality and no drive-and-kick means less rebounds, points, assists, and efficiency.. Don't underestimate the impact of not having drive-and-kick.. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=aj1987]I say his FG% would drop by like ~5%. 26/9/8 on 50%-52%. More rebounds and assists due to the higher pace (96.8 in '93 and 92 in '13).

[/QUOTE]

At the risk of sounding like I'm parroting 3ball, I think pace and the nature of the era cancel each other to a degree, though it's impossible to quantity how much.

Lebron gets a lot of 'drive and kick to 3point shooters' assists, considering that the 3 wasn't nearly as utilized 22 years ago would logically impact how he gets alot of assists. Being fair, I say he adapts fine assist-wise given that passing ability is kind of exempt from the era argument, and some of those 'drive and kicks' may morph into 'drive and dish' to the larger selection of quality bigmen in the 90's.

Let's put him in Cleveland for example in 1993, let's say Daugherty and Price are there as well. He's got both an interior target as well as Price (and Ehlo) as shooters. But then, Price becomes a spot-up shooter if they employ Lebron-ball( not that this is bad, Price was one hell of a shooter, but that's not maximizing all his strengths). The question is, depending on team makeup, will he still employ the top of the key, ball-dominant style? Or will he play with a traditional PG where he has to adapt to being more off-ball? All these nuances can swing the stats pendulum, if only slightly.

Rebound-wise, alot of trees in the paint back then and I don't think he's even as good as rebounder in today's smaller league as he should be. Grant Hill, for example, was a better rebounder while giving up 50 pounds and playing in that era of dominant bigs.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]

But then, Price becomes a spot-up shooter if they employ Lebron-ball[/quote]

You mean, like how Wade and Irving became spot-up shooters alongside LeBron? :rolleyes:. We have 5 years of solid proof that ball-dominant guards have no issue excelling alongside LeBron. Nobody's turning into a "spot-up shooter". "LeBron ball" is only employed when he's playing with sub-par talent or a very unimaginative offensive coach. Prior to the 2015 playoffs(no Love/Kyrie), the last time we saw it was the 2010 NBA season.

[quote]Rebound-wise, alot of trees in the paint back then[/quote]

LeBron always managed to average 7-8 rpg in Cleveland while playing with very strong rebounding front courts. No reason why he wouldn't be able to at least duplicate that in a faster-paced league that employs the 3-ball less, so he's going to be closer to the basket. Everybody averaged more rpg back in the day, so why the heck would LeBron's decrease?

[QUOTE=Indian guy]

1)You mean, like how Wade and Irving became spot-up shooters alongside LeBron? :rolleyes:. We have 5 years of solid proof that ball-dominant guards have no issue excelling alongside LeBron. Nobody's turning into a "spot-up shooter". "LeBron ball" is only employed when he's playing with sub-par talent or a very unimaginative offensive coach. Prior to the 2015 playoffs(no Love/Kyrie), the last time we saw it was the 2010 NBA season.



2)LeBron always managed to average 7-8 rpg in Cleveland while playing with very strong rebounding front courts. No reason why he wouldn't be able to at least duplicate that in a faster-paced league that employs the 3-ball less, so he's going to be closer to the basket. Everybody averaged more rpg back in the day, so why the heck would LeBron's decrease?[/QUOTE]

1) But we really have no idea how Lebron and Price would be utilized back in 1993. For one, Wade's not a good enough shooter to take that role, so naming him is pointless. You have a point about Kyrie, but one circumstance of a star 'shooting' PG not being relegated to a spot-up role doesn't mean Price wouldn't take that role 20 years ago. It doesn't mean he would either, but it can't be stated with any degree of authority one way or the other. This is purely speculation.

2) I made no argument that his rebounds would decrease. I just don't think they'll increase. In fact, several posts before the one you jumped on, I said his stats would probably be the same minus a lower FG%, more in line with his pre Miami days.

[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]Lebron would be dropping the shoulder like he does today, except he would be doing it every chance he gets...[/QUOTE] How is that different than from today?

[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]A 6-9 270 pound dude getting physically impeded by Chris Mullin? Yeah ****ing right son.[/QUOTE]Chris Mullin wasn't exactly the pinnacle of man to man perimeter D, a lot of guys would and did score on him. He'll be defended by more Anthony Masons and Larry Johnsons. Mullin would be an easier night, and Pippen/ MJ would be a tough night. Nance would definitely give Lebron trouble as well.

How much trouble is LeBron giving the league on the perimeter while being able to put his hands on guys? He nearly won DPOY's in a weak era with his hands behind his back, no?


He locked down D-Rose with length and recovery ability. He shut a peak Big Al down in 2013 by himself.


You give this guy the ability to abuse hand-check rules :eek:

[QUOTE=Rocketswin2013]How much trouble is LeBron giving the league on the perimeter while being able to put his hands on guys? He nearly won DPOY's in a weak era with his hands behind his back, no?


He locked down D-Rose with length and recovery ability. He shut a peak Big Al down in 2013 by himself.


You give this guy the ability to abuse hand-check rules :eek:[/QUOTE]

Lebron could be a very good defender in the 90s. In fact had he played in the 90s he would have to be a very good defender, because he will be a much less effective offensive player.

As I say, he'd be close to a 20-10 power forward who played good defense or alternatively a big better Anthony Mason small forward, but there's no way he hits 25ppg in the 90s.

[QUOTE=j3lademaster]

Chris Mullin wasn't exactly the pinnacle of man to man perimeter D, a lot of guys would and did score on him. He'll be defended by more Anthony Masons and Larry Johnsons. Mullin would be an easier night, and Pippen/ MJ would be a tough night. Nance would definitely give Lebron trouble as well.[/QUOTE]

As would Rodman, but choosing Chris Mullin as if he is representative of 90s perimeter defenders wasnt by accident. Its like those who use Craig Ehlo to say MJ was only defended by skinny white guys while ignoring Rodman, Cooper, Dumars, Payton, Moncrief etc etc.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw] It doesn't mean he would either, but it can't be stated with any degree of authority one way or the other. This is purely speculation.[/quote]

Dude, you are the one who speculated first and said it with authority - that "LeBron ball" would relegate Price to spot-up shooter. My rebuttal is, in LeBron's 12 year career, he has played with 3 star-level guards - 'Mo Williams, Wade and Irving. 2 of them happened to be excellent shooters. And 2 of them were ball-dominant. Yet, in all 3 cases, not only did they manage to excel, but none of 'em were reduced to "spot up" status. Thus, there's little merit to what you said. And we don't need to speculate on how LeBron/Price would be used 22 years ago. We can just look at LeBron's history with star-guards and conclude that Price would do just fine.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]At the risk of sounding like I'm parroting 3ball, I think pace and the nature of the era cancel each other to a degree, though it's impossible to quantity how much.

Lebron gets a lot of 'drive and kick to 3point shooters' assists, considering that the 3 wasn't nearly as utilized 22 years ago would logically impact how he gets alot of assists. Being fair, I say he adapts fine assist-wise given that passing ability is kind of exempt from the era argument, and some of those 'drive and kicks' may morph into 'drive and dish' to the larger selection of quality bigmen in the 90's.

Let's put him in Cleveland for example in 1993, let's say Daugherty and Price are there as well. He's got both an interior target as well as Price (and Ehlo) as shooters. But then, Price becomes a spot-up shooter if they employ Lebron-ball( not that this is bad, Price was one hell of a shooter, but that's not maximizing all his strengths). The question is, depending on team makeup, will he still employ the top of the key, ball-dominant style? Or will he play with a traditional PG where he has to adapt to being more off-ball? All these nuances can swing the stats pendulum, if only slightly.

Rebound-wise, alot of trees in the paint back then and I don't think he's even as good as rebounder in today's smaller league as he should be. Grant Hill, for example, was a better rebounder while giving up 50 pounds and playing in that era of dominant bigs.[/QUOTE]
This.

I hate when people take Lebron and the way he plays right now in this league and try to say he'd be less effective at a time when other skills were more paramount.

What if Lebron grew up in a time of physicality and post game instead of AAU and AND1? My guess is that he would have an wicked post game.

A player with Lebron's gifts and athletic ability is going to develop the skills necessary to dominate in any era

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory]This.

I hate when people take Lebron and the way he plays right now in this league and try to say he'd be less effective at a time when other skills were more paramount.

What if Lebron grew up in a time of physicality and post game instead of AAU and AND1? My guess is that he would have an wicked post game.

A player with Lebron's gifts and athletic ability is going to develop the skills necessary to dominate in any era[/QUOTE]

Lebron is too heavy, too heavy feet to be a truly good post player.

The average 90s power forward was not some beast with Hakeem like moves. Think David West, ability to hit a short hook and open mid range shots. Horace Grant in other words.

Lebron simply does not have the great coordination needed to be a good post player. Look at a big guy like Karl Malone being able to smoothly drain mid range jumpers, something Lebron still can't, even after being forced to work on it for years.

Anthony Mason with better outside shooting and better passing is his 90s ceiling.

So I guess it's settled.

Pippen with vastly superior FT shooting, finishing ability, speed, quickness, off-ball shooting and strength.

Pippen was a 22/8/6 guy on 56 TS%.

I would project LeBron as 26/7/7 on 62 TS% with Duncan-level defensive impact.

Essentially the best player in the 90's.

[QUOTE=90sgoat]Lebron is too heavy, too heavy feet to be a truly good post player.

The average 90s power forward was not some beast with Hakeem like moves. Think David West, ability to hit a short hook and open mid range shots. Horace Grant in other words.

Lebron simply does not have the great coordination needed to be a good post player. Look at a big guy like Karl Malone being able to smoothly drain mid range jumpers, something Lebron still can't, even after being forced to work on it for years.

Anthony Mason with better outside shooting and better passing is his 90s ceiling.[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Rocketswin2013]So I guess it's settled.

Pippen with vastly superior FT shooting, finishing ability, speed, quickness, off-ball shooting and strength.

Pippen was a 22/8/6 guy on 56 TS%.

I would project LeBron as 26/7/7 on 62 TS% with [B]Duncan-level defensive impact[/B].

[B]Essentially the best player in the 90's[/B].[/QUOTE]

4th best player, behind

1. MJ
2. Dream
3. Shaq
4. Malone - Chuck - Bran