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[QUOTE=aj1987]With PG's, it depends entirely upon the team. If it was just a random team, I'd pick GP. Dude could score, rebound, pass, and defend. Nash could do only two of those at an elite level for PG's. Nash is a fantastic player, but so was GP. His defense is getting significantly undervalued. Nash could put up 20 points and 10 assists, but what's the use if he's giving up 25+ on the other end?[/QUOTE]
I'm not arguing Nash was better. I was just curious who you thought was better.
[QUOTE=GrapeApe]Kidd turned around one of the worst organiztions in the league and took them to back to back finals. Prime Kidd is one of the few players in history who could dominate a game without scoring a point.[/QUOTE]
In the worst conference ever.. and one of those years aided by a Billups injury.
[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]In the worst conference ever.. and one of those years aided by a Billups injury.[/QUOTE]
it's all relative.. kidd had Kenyon martin and Jason Collins. CP3 has blake griffin and deandre Jordan.
Jkidd faced lesser competition, but he had lesser teammates so it evens out.
[QUOTE=tpols]it's all relative.. kidd had Kenyon martin and Jason Collins. CP3 has blake griffin and deandre Jordan.
Jkidd faced lesser competition, but he had lesser teammates so it evens out.[/QUOTE]
I don't think DJ is even worth noting, tbh...
I don't see Kidd coming nearly as close to the WCF in '08 as Paul did, nor even make it past the Spurs in '15 (Paul had a historic series).. and right from the set up I don't see him leading the Clippers to the same regular season success, Paul led league leading offenses, I don't really have a thing for PG's that shoot in the low 40's/high 30's.
[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]I don't think DJ is even worth noting, tbh...
I don't see Kidd coming nearly as close to the WCF in '08 as Paul did, nor even make it past the Spurs in '15 (Paul had a historic series).. and right from the set up I don't see him leading the Clippers to the same regular season success, Paul led league leading offenses, I don't really have a thing for PG's that shoot in the low 40's/high 30's.[/QUOTE]
DJ is worth noting in comparison to early 00s Nets centers.. he's a vast upgrade.
the Kidd K-mart chemistry was a thing of beauty on both ends.. the blocks, steals, alley oops from half court, open floor game.. I cant even imagine what kidd would do with weapons around the rim like blake griffin and Jordan. That would be a sight to behold.
Agree on the offense not being as good with Kidd.. would be more exciting but less effective especially half court offense, but the defense and team discipline would improve 10 fold. The Clippers have all the talent to compete for titles but have a middling defense. If Kidd could drag the guys he had to the number 1 defense in the league he could certainly make the clippers a very elite defense as well. They were ranked 15th last year in defense... that's dogshit for a playoff team.
And Jkidd's defense and the type of D he inspires his squad to play will never choke or disappear in the playoffs like paul's offense can.
[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater][B]In the worst conference ever.[/B]. and one of those years aided by a Billups injury.[/QUOTE]
Lebron made finals on the same level conference and he was trash in finals. But people says that Lebron's 2007 was epic and Kidd's b2b finals was trash , right?
Double standard .
[QUOTE=tpols]it's all relative.. kidd had Kenyon martin and Jason Collins. CP3 has blake griffin and deandre Jordan.
Jkidd faced lesser competition, but he had lesser teammates so it evens out.[/QUOTE]No it doesn't even out.
The Nets were still the best team in the east, facing inferior teams in every round and had homecourt advantage throughout the playoffs.
The Clippers were the 3rd-5th seed and had to face the Spurs (twice), Thunder, Warriors, Grizzlies, and Rockets. Most of those series on the road.
The Nets had to beat the 44 win Baron Davis/Jamal Mashburn Hornets to the conference finals.
The Clippers had to get through the 59 win Durant/Westbrook Thunder to get to the conference finals.
Kidd faced ONE 50 win team to get to the finals in the those years, CP3 never faced a team with less than 51 wins in the playoffs.
The east in the early 00's was a complete joke. There's a reason Kidd went from either losing in the 1st round or missing the playoffs in his first 7 seasons playing in the west to immediately getting to the finals as soon as he went to the east.
[QUOTE=feyki]Lebron made finals on the same level conference and he was trash in finals. But people says that Lebron's 2007 was epic and Kidd's b2b finals was trash , right?
Double standard .[/QUOTE]
Nobody says that.. the 2008-2012 East is SUBSTANTIALLY better than the 2000-2003 and 2007 East...
LeBron wasn't even top 3 in 2007, his run isn't very impressive to me at all, for the same reasons Kidd's wasn't. Bron did however have one of the greatest games ever, that is undeniable.
[QUOTE=aj1987]GP took his team within 2 games of winning the title against the '96 Bulls. [B]He's an elite team defender as well.[/B] Overall defense is definitely GP. Definitely a better rebounder and a playmaker. No question about that, but dude was inefficient AF and couldn't score. His best statistical season, he averaged 24/7/9/2. Those are LeBron numbers. 22/5/8/2 over 7 seasons.
Dude is literally one of the only players to have "shut down" MJ over multiple games in a series.[/QUOTE]
No...he isn't. Payton has become one of the most overrated pg's ever because of how he was allowed to do whatever the hell he wanted after the Sonics title aspirations ended. He was NEVER an elite team defender and his impact defensively was never as high as Kidds overall.
Kidd
CP3
Payton
Here's what the Nets faced on their way to the finals...
42 win Pacers
44 win Hornets
49 win Celtics
42 win Bucks
44 win Celtics
50 win Pistons
You gotta be f*cking kidding me.
They faced one good team in 6 rounds. They faced TWO 44 win teams in the 2nd round. What a f*cking joke.
[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]Nobody says that.. the 2008-2012 East is SUBSTANTIALLY better than the 2000-2003 and 2007 East...
LeBron wasn't even top 3 in 2007, his run isn't very impressive to me at all, for the same reasons Kidd's wasn't. Bron did however have one of the greatest games ever, that is undeniable.[/QUOTE]
Interesting .
I pick Lebron for third best player with Kobe in 2007 . I also pick Kidd for my top 3-4 in 2002 and 2003 .
East become stronger with 2008 cause Celtics and Magic were top 3-4 teams of the NBA .
East had one great team(2004-2006 Pistons) at between 99-07 .
Kidd had better rebounding,playmaking than Payton . And he was probably second goat pg defender after Payton .
CP3 will probably pass Kidd when his career over . But Kidd has best career of that group .
[QUOTE=Young X]No it doesn't even out.
The Nets were still the best team in the east, facing inferior teams in every round and had homecourt advantage throughout the playoffs.
The Clippers were the 3rd-5th seed and had to face the Spurs (twice), Thunder, Warriors, Grizzlies, and Rockets. Most of those series on the road.
The Nets had to beat the 44 win Baron Davis/Jamal Mashburn Hornets to the conference finals.
The Clippers had to get through the 59 win Durant/Westbrook Thunder to get to the conference finals.
Kidd faced ONE 50 win team to get to the finals in the those years, CP3 never faced a team with less than 51 wins in the playoffs.
The east in the early 00's was a complete joke. There's a reason Kidd went from either losing in the 1st round or missing the playoffs in his first 7 seasons playing in the west to immediately getting to the finals as soon as he went to the east.[/QUOTE]
It does even out because the Nets roster wasn't anything special. In fact talent wise, the 8th seeded Pacers and a healthy Hornets team were better on paper.
[QUOTE=game3524]It does even out because the Nets roster wasn't anything special. In fact talent wise, the 8th seeded Pacers and a healthy Hornets team were better on paper.[/QUOTE]I don't care who was better on paper. The Nets were the best team in that garbage conference. They had homecourt for every series except against Detroit.
The Clippers were never the best team in the west. There were always teams better than them that they had to get through to get to the finals.
Which is tougher or more unlikely:
The 50 win Clippers beating the 62 win Spurs in 2012?
or
The 52 win Nets beating the 44 win Hornets?
What about...
The 57 win Clippers beating the 59 win Thunder?
or
The 49 win Nets beating the 44 win Celtics?
If your answer is the Clippers then I don't see how everything evens out.
[QUOTE=Young X]Here's what the Nets faced on their way to the finals...
42 win Pacers
44 win Hornets
49 win Celtics
42 win Bucks
44 win Celtics
50 win Pistons
You gotta be f*cking kidding me.
They faced one good team in 6 rounds. They faced TWO 44 win teams in the 2nd round. What a f*cking joke.[/QUOTE]
I don't care who they faced, when you win 3 straight playoff series in back to back seasons with the kind of rosters the Nets had those years, it's impressive. Kidd completely revitalized a franchise that had routinely competed with the Clippers for being the laughing stock of the league. I don't know if some of you are too young to remember or what, but the Nets' organization was an embarrassment.
The east being weak in the early 2000's is well documented, but it doesn't diminish what Kidd did for that franchise. He controlled the game in a way that few PG's in history ever have. At his absolute best, Kidd had more impact than Payton or Paul at their absolute best.
[QUOTE=GrapeApe][B]I don't care who they faced, when you win 3 straight playoff series in back to back seasons with the kind of rosters the Nets had those years, it's impressive.[/B] Kidd completely revitalized a franchise that had routinely competed with the Clippers for being the laughing stock of the league. I don't know if some of you are too young to remember or what, but the Nets' organization was an embarrassment.
The east being weak is well documented, but it doesn't diminish what Kidd did for that franchise. He controlled the game a way that few PG's in history ever have. At his absolute best, Kidd had more impact than Payton or Paul at their absolute best.[/QUOTE]
Why? Have you taken a look at the other teams in 2002 particularly? It would actually be an embarrassment to have lost to any of those teams, tbh...
Of course it doesn't diminish what he did, its simply not that impressive. Barring injuries of course the Pistons would be in the 2003 finals, also.
You say your last sentence like its a fact that can be backed up with impact stats, it can't.