Pippen was a worse 2nd option than...

[QUOTE=T_L_P]

TIL Iggy was the 1st option on the 2015 Warriors!

[/QUOTE]

[I]Your trolling aside - the point of the thread is that Pippen was a worse 2nd option than all these guys:[/I]


Shaq (2005 and 2006)
Magic (1979)
Kareem (nearly every year)
McHale (nearly every year)
Kobe (every year except 2000)
Dr. J (1983)
Duncan (since 2008)
Durant or Westbrook (every year)
Shawn Kemp (1996 - look it up - RS, PO and Finals - not close at all)
Lebron (2011)
Wade (2012)
Penny (1995 and 1996)
Stockton (every year)
David Robinson (1998)
Drexler (1995)
Gasol (2009 and 2010)


[I]And WHY was Pippen a worse 2nd option than these guys???

It's because none of the 2nd options listed above made their #1 option score at least 10 ppg more than them for every playoff series of their career, or 50% of the 4th quarter points in playoffs and Finals (while on the floor).

Only MJ was required to do this, which is explains why Pippen is worse than all those guys listed above..

Also, none of the guys listed above had GOAT chokes, like Pippen's 1-10 for 2 points in 1990 ECF, or 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals, or 8 and 6 points in final two games of 1998 Finals (15 ppg on 41% overall).[/I]

[QUOTE=Bay Area Baller]Sean Kemp was a beast! Very fun player to watch[/QUOTE]
Shawn not Sean.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

I would add 2002 for Kobe.

[B]02 Kobe : [/B]26 / 5.8 / 4.6 on [B]51%TS --- [COLOR="DarkRed"](20.5 PER)[/COLOR][/B]
[B]91 Pippen :[/B] 21 / 8.9 / 5.8 on [B]56%TS --- [COLOR="DarkRed"](22.0 PER)[/COLOR][/B]

[/QUOTE]
Not at all, because you excluded the regular season, where Kobe's 25/6/6 destroys Pippen's 18/7/6.

Btw, scoring 5 more ppg is a super-ton..

I'll take 5 ppg and Kobe carrying Shaq down the stretch over a 2-3 rebounds... Seriously, nice try (the act of copy-paste was better than your argument)

Why do you put so much emphasis on "ppg" while ignoring everything else.

Does Pippen being way better defensively then most other All-Time 2nd options not matter?
Does Pippen being a better rebounder then most All-Time perimeter 2nd options not matter?
Does Pippen being a great playmaker not matter?

Anyway Pippen's offensive volume in the first Bullz 3peat was quite good for a 2nd option.

20.3-ppg / 6.1-apg on 54%TS...

Please show me a long list of 2nd options who put up considerably better offensive stats (ppg + apg) then Pippen did over that 3 year span.
Sure some will be better but not many will be "considerably better" etc...

Then you factor in his rebounding + godly defense and you had one hell of a 2nd option.

During the 2nd Bullz 3peat I will admit Pippen may have been below average offensively for a 2nd option but he was still great or special in those other areas so I am not sure how "bad" a 2nd option he was but either way you can't ignore how good he was in the first 3peat just because it suits your agenda.

[QUOTE=3ball]Not at all, because you excluded the regular season.[/QUOTE]

I'll take the noticeably better playoff performer over the better regular-season performer every single time but that is just my personal preference.

Not like Jordan or Shaq would have missed the playoffs those years either way.

[QUOTE]Btw, scoring 5 more ppg is a super-ton.[/QUOTE]

I'll take 1.2 extra assists, 3.1 extra rebounds, 5% better efficiency (huge difference) and vastly superior defense over 5-ppg.

The stats speak for themselves and anyone with a brain can see that Pippen was a better 2nd option that year and it isn't really debatable.

[B][COLOR="DarkRed"]02 Kobe :[/COLOR][/B] [B]26[/B] / 5.8 / 4.6 on 51%TS --- (20.5 PER)
[B][COLOR="DarkRed"]91 Pippen :[/COLOR][/B] 21 /[B] 8.9 / 5.8[/B] on [B]56%TS --- (22.0 PER)[/B]


________________________


Further comparison
[B]Pre-Finals playoff stats (first 3 rounds only) [/B]

[B]91 Pippen :[/B] 22.0 / 8.7 / 5.5 on[B] .580%TS<---[/B]
[B]02 Kobe : [/B]26.6 / 5.8 / 4.4 on [B].488%TS<---[/B]

Ouch...

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

that is just my personal preference.

[/QUOTE]
So you're saying Pippen > Kobe?

Obviously not.

So regardless of your splitting hairs and our disagreement over this year vs. that year etc.... Kobe is still better than Pippen as a 1st and 2nd option - those are the facts..

The point from the OP remains - there's a super-ton of 2nd options superior to Pippen.
.

[QUOTE=3ball]So you're saying Pippen > Kobe?

Obviously not.
[/QUOTE]

Of course not.
I said 91 Pippen > 02 Kobe etc...

But again if you value the reg-season heavily (and more then I do) I could perhaps understand why you might go the other way.

[QUOTE]Kobe is still better than Pippen as a 1st and 2nd option - those are the facts.. [/QUOTE]

That is probably true but I would still take 91/92 Pip over 00/02 Kobe as a 2nd option especially if my main guy is a quality volume scorer ala Jordan or Peak Shaq.

[QUOTE]there's a super-ton of 2nd options superior to Pippen.
[/QUOTE]
Depends on the sample size you use.
I would hesistate in saying that there is a long list of 2nd options who were "considerably better" then early 90's Pippen who I thought was quite good.

Sure you'll have some outliers who were clearly better and some others with good arguments but... is there a long list of guys who were better to the point where you'd put them on a higher "tier" etc...? I doubt it.

Pippen in the 1st Bullz 3peat was a quality 2nd option even in an All-Time sense.

Now second 3peat Pippen might be a different story but I never said otherwise.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

Pippen in the 1st Bullz 3peat was a quality 2nd option even in an All-Time sense.

[/quote]
The OP list was based on comparing to 1st three-peat Pippen.

So every 2nd option I listed in the OP is better than 1st three-peat Pippen.. The only guys you'll disagree with are Drexler, Stockton and Gasol.


[quote=ShaqTwizzle]

Now second 3peat Pippen might be a different story but I never said otherwise.

[/QUOTE]
2nd three-peat Pippen was aids - his stats during 1996-1998 playoffs were 17/7/5 on 40.8%.

THAT'S A THREE-YEAR PERIOD OF AIDS.... This includes 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals.... and 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 Finals (8 and 6 points in final two games).

[I]There were a lot of THIRD options better than 2nd three-peat Pippen.. See the [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393882]Horace Grant thread[/url] for some of those...

Infact, there's FOURTH options that were better - see the [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393894]BJ Armstrong thread[/url] for some of those.
[/I]

Pippen is so overrated. He is a hustling defender type of guy that was gifted in being a cog in the triangle next to MJ.

Don't we have a Pippen thread running right now, where this argument is being had? Oh wait...

[I]On the flipside, you have your MJ haters who blindly scream 1-9 and 57 vs 55 wins to discredit MJ. You seem reasonable enough to see that the door swings both ways. [B][I][U]The only MJ fan I see who goes out of his way to discredit Pip is 3ball.[/U][/I][/B] The rest of the MJ/Bulls fans I feel respect what Pippen brought to the table, even while acknowledging MJ as the catalyst for those squads. It is possible to give the two of them their just due.[/I]

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]

Don't we have a Pippen thread running right now, where this argument is being had? Oh wait...

[/QUOTE]
Every 2nd option I listed in the OP is better than 1st three-peat Pippen..

The only guys you'll disagree with are Drexler, Stockton and Gasol.

[I]So basically, Pippen was decent, but a worse 2nd option than a TON of guys - THAT'S the point of the thread.
[/I]

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]

It is possible to give the two of them their just due.

[/QUOTE]
2nd three-peat Pippen was aids and doesn't deserve that much "due"... His stats during 1996-1998 playoffs were 17/7/5 on 40.8%.

THAT'S A THREE-YEAR PERIOD OF AIDS.... This includes 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals.... and 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 Finals (8 and 6 points in final two games).

[I]There were a lot of THIRD options better than 2nd three-peat Pippen.. See the [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393882]Horace Grant thread[/url] for some of those...

Infact, there's FOURTH options that were better - see the [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393894]BJ Armstrong thread[/url] for some of those.
[/I]

3ball is an idiot and this 2nd option nonsense is just that...nonsense. If all you want to look at is ppg...then yeah there were better 2nd best players...but can you say that any of those guys were also the best defensive and best passing forward for a good decade? There's a reason that Scottie Pippen is considered a greater player than Dominique Wilkins despite the fact that he's scored many, many more points...

What made the Bulls so good and run so smoothly was that their two best players were also the two best ALL-AROUND PLAYERS IN THE WORLD. Like Barkley said in relation to defense...if it wasn't one it was the other coming after you. The dobermans.

"If you look at those Bulls teams, it was really just Michael and Scottie," Barkley said Monday in an interview with the Tribune. "Nobody on those other Bulls teams were great defenders … well, Horace Grant, and maybe Dennis (Rodman). Nobody looked at John Paxson as a great defender. I mean that with no disrespect. But this Bulls team, as a team defensive presence, they're the best I've seen in the NBA."

[QUOTE=Smoke117]

3ball is an idiot and this 2nd option nonsense is just that...nonsense.

If all you want to look at is ppg...then yeah there were better 2nd best players...

[/QUOTE]

[B]You've missed the point of the thread, which has nothing to do with PPG - which one of these 2nd options was Pippen better than?[/B]


Shaq (2005 and 2006)
Magic (1979)
Kareem (nearly every year)
McHale (nearly every year)
Kobe (nearly every year)
Dr. J (1983)
Duncan (since 2008)
Durant or Westbrook (every year)
Lebron (2011)
Penny (1995 and 1996)
Stockton (every year)
David Robinson (1998)


I purposefully left off Gasol (2009 and 2010), Wade (2012), Drexler (1995), and [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12000670&postcount=12]Shawn Kemp[/url] (1996 - look it up - RS, PO and Finals - not close at all), even though they're all better 2nd options too.

First 3peat Pippen was easily better than

'87-'89 Kareem
'81-'84 McHale
'11-'12 & '14-'15 Duncan

And you could argue first 3peat Pippen was either better than, or just as good as

'06 Shaq
'00 Kobe
'83 Dr. J
'13 Duncan
'12 Wade
'95 Drexler
'09-'10 Gasol
Stockton

[QUOTE=3ball]No other team had 3-peat chemistry, teamwork and system - [B]if they did, they would win 55 games with marginal talent too.. [/B]

But the Bulls were exposed in the playoffs - 3-peat chemistry could only get them to the 2nd Round - they simply lacked talent.

Furthermore, the 94' Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.

[COLOR="Navy"][I]Now if we were running an experiment to see if MJ's impact was [U]truly[/U] 3-peat to 2nd Round, we would have him come back and see if he could 3-peat again.... VIOLA!!!!... Done and done.. Confirmed 2nd Round to 3-peat impact.[/I][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

That's an assumption made by you, it means nothing. I only talk facts, not assumptions.
Jordan 1-9 without Pippen.
Pippen won 55 games without Jordan.
No other superstar in their prime had a team that won 55 games without him.
Jordan had the most stacked team of all-time...