Willie Nauls and Paul Arizin (even though he was past his prime) weren't bad players either, and Tom Gola was a 7 time All Star.:oldlol: Wilt played with solid teammates, it's just that the Celtics had better players.
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Willie Nauls and Paul Arizin (even though he was past his prime) weren't bad players either, and Tom Gola was a 7 time All Star.:oldlol: Wilt played with solid teammates, it's just that the Celtics had better players.
[QUOTE=MiseryCityTexas]Guy Rodgers avg 13 and 10 in the 63-64 season, yet you still consider him a terrible NBa player:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
The fact that he was just recently voted into the HOF is a testament to just how great he really was.
And he had two major problems. One...he simply couldn't shoot. And two, he still kept trying.
The man would have seasons of nearly 20 FGAs per game...and on .373 shooting. Before Rubio arrived on the scene, Rodgers was arguably the most inefficient shooter, per the league average, in NBA history.
And in 63-64 he had a normal, for him, regular season... .365. Then came the playoffs, where he shot .329 on his 15 FGAs per game, and a horrific Finals of .258.
Had he just passed the ball he would have been a considerably better asset. Unfortunately, he always felt that he was going to make the next one...which he seldom did.
Rondo can't shoot worth shit either.
[QUOTE=MiseryCityTexas]Willie Nauls and Paul Arizin (even though he was past his prime) weren't bad players either, and Tom Gola was a 7 time All Star.:oldlol: Wilt played with solid teammates, it's just that the Celtics had better players.[/QUOTE]
Naulls was a shell when joined up with Chamberlain...but, he still played better with Wilt, than he would with Russell.
Arizin was a great player, and still was even late in his career. However, his last two post-seasons were awful (.375 and .328 from the floor.) And Gola has as much business being in the HOF as I do. He might very well be the worst post-season player of any HOFer. And he wasn't just putrid with Chamberlain, either. He was rancid in most everyone of them. And again, in his last two post-seasons with Chamberlain... he shot .271 and .206 (and missed some games, as well.) But before the bashers rise up and blame Wilt...Gola had his best seasons alongside Chamberlain.
[QUOTE=MiseryCityTexas]Rondo can't shoot worth shit either.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. And I doubt that he will make the HOF.
[QUOTE]During the 1959-60 season, Gola became the first Warrior to have three straight games with a triple-double (the only other being Draymond Green, 2016).[/QUOTE] - Wikipedia
Wish there was video footage of this guy.
[QUOTE=MiseryCityTexas]- Wikipedia
Wish there was video footage of this guy.[/QUOTE]
With a career post-season FG% of .336, you can already guess what the footage would look like.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]With a career post-season FG% of .336, you can already guess what the footage would look like.[/QUOTE]
Lol I did see his play-off shooting percentages in the play-offs on b ball reference just a min ago. You're right, that shit is terrible:biggums: I seen the 60-61 and 61-62 seasons where he shot in the low 20s:biggums:
[QUOTE=MiseryCityTexas]Lol I did see his play-off shooting percentages in the play-offs on b ball reference just a min ago. You're right, that shit is terrible:biggums: I seen the 60-61 and 61-62 seasons where he shot in the low 20s:biggums:[/QUOTE]
The problem with the basketball HOF is that just that. It is a basketball HOF, and not an NBA HOF. Gola was a legendary college player, and evidently a reasonably good NBA player, but he wouldn't be in anyone's NBA HOF.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]He won back to back state titles in high school too. And his back to back rings in college were part of a run of 55 wins in a row. And the olympic team he led to the gold...won by an average margin of victory of 53ppg. The most ever(the first dream team is second...with 44ppg).
He only lost an elimination game of any kind from age 16 to retirement....2 times. And his ankle was nearly broken for one of them(he still played 20 minutes).
Healthy? He lost one win or go home game after the 10th grade.[/QUOTE]
Red Auerbach drafted him without seeing him play.
After seeing him he understood that Russell was the best player on the Celtics at a time
when the sportswriters were still talking up Bob Cousy and took it on a project to educate the sportswriters how to understand Russell's impact. How it didn't have to the be scorer that had the best game. Auerbach told Russell after his first year, I don't know how you do what you do, but you're the best player in the league.
Weren't there only like 8 teams in the league? And you can't compare it to modern basketball (1980's and later) because the game was completely different. So saying hes a better winner than Jordan is a little iffy
Jordan, like Wilt and a handful other greats were perhaps the better player than Russell, but basketball is a team effort and that's where Russell's genius lie. Given such dominance in high school, college, and the pros, Russel's will to win exceeds that of anyone else, ever.
He had by far the greatest career of any hall of fame great in sports history. :cheers:
[QUOTE=talkingconch]Weren't there only like 8 teams in the league? And you can't compare it to modern basketball (1980's and later) because the game was completely different. So saying hes a better winner than Jordan is a little iffy[/QUOTE]
The leagues ranged from between 8-12 teams in the years he played. And he won a ring in a season in which his team went 48-34, and won three straight series without HCA.
[QUOTE]Wilt = 37.6 ppg in 1959/60 season
Wilt = 30.5 ppg vs Russell in 1960 EDF
(- 7.1 ppg)
Wilt = 50.4 ppg in 1961/62 season
Wilt = 33.6 ppg vs Russell in 1962 EDF
(- 16.8 ppg)
Wilt = 36.9 ppg in 1963/64 season
Wilt = 29.2 ppg vs Russell in 1964 Finals
(- 7.7 ppg)
Wilt = 34.7 ppg in 1964/65 season
Wilt = 30.1 ppg vs Russell in 1965 EDF
(- 4.6 ppg)
Wilt = 33.5 ppg in 1965/66 season
Wilt = 28.0 ppg vs Russell in 1966 EDF
(- 5.5 ppg)
Wilt = 24.1 ppg in 1966/67 season
Wilt = 21.6 ppg vs Russell in 1967 EDF
(- 2.5 ppg the only time he beat Russell)
Wilt = 24.3 ppg in 1967/68 season
Wilt = 22.1 ppg vs Russell in 1968 EDF
(- 2.2 ppg)
Wilt = 20.5 ppg in 1968/69 season
Wilt = 11.7 ppg vs Russell in 1969 Finals
(- 8.8 ppg)[/QUOTE]
Now, how about comparing their regular season H2H's, with their post-season H2H's...
59-60:
[QUOTE]Now...the Russell-Wilt H2H's.
First of all, here were Russell's regular season numbers against the entire NBA that season:
18.2 ppg, 24.0 rpg, and a career high .467 eFG%
NYCelts84 posted an a google archive article (which I can no longer find), which had Russell and Wilt's cumulative stats for their first ten H2H games in that regular season. And nbastats.net gives us their 11th. So, we basically have their regular season totals:
[B]Russell: 19.8 ppg, 23.7 rpg, and get this... an eFG% of .393
Wilt: 39.1 ppg, 29.7 rpg, .465 FG%, 1.3 apg.[/B]
Chamberlain basically EXCEEDED ALL of his regular season stats against Russell in that regular season, including FG%. And, he held Russell, in his greatest FG% season, to way below his normal regular season FG%, and in fact, below the league average (.410.)
Interesting too,...take away their very first H2H game, and in which Russell slightly outplayed Wilt (Wilt outscored Russell, 30-22, but they were even on the glass at 30-30, and Russell outshot Wilt from the floor 7-19 to 12-38)...and here were Chamberlain's numbers in their last ten straight regular season H2H games:
40.2 ppg, 29.7 rpg, and on a .481 FG%.
Incidently and for those that somehow believed that Russell would "let" Chamberlain get his points in certain circumstances...
Here was a game on 1/29/60 in which Wilt scored 43 points, on 18-36 shooting, with 39 rebounds:
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/...001290PHW.html[/url]
A big fourth quarter comeback. It would not be the last time Wilt would engineer a 4th quarter comeback with a huge game, either.
Over the course of those 11 H2H games, Chamberlain outscored Russell 10-1, including six games of 43+, and a high game of 53. BTW, Wilt also plastered Russell with a staggering 44 point, 43 rebound game. Chamberlain held an 8-2-1 rebounding advantage, and had four games of 35+ (Russell's high game against Wilt was 33.)
The two would meet in the EDF's (and after Chamberlain put up a 38.7 ppg, 23.0 rpg, series against Syracuse in the first round, which included a clinching 53-22 game on 24-42 shooting.)
The series went six games, and Boston won the clinching game six by a 119-117 margin.
[B]Here were their numbers in those six games of EDF's:
Russell: 20.7 ppg, 27.0 rpg, and on a .446 eFG%, and 2.8 apg.
Wilt: 30.5 ppg, 27.5 rpg, and on a .500 FG% (in a post-season that shot an eFG% of .402), and 2.0 apg[/B]
However, Wilt badly injured his hand in a melee in game two, and was worthless in game three (and below normal in game four.) His hand was so swollen he could not hold the ball. Of course he was never a great FT shooter, but he went 0-6 from the line in that game (and shot .538 the rest of the series from the FT line.) Game three would probably be the only time in their 49 post-season H2H's in which Russell clearly dominated Wilt. Russell outscored Wilt, 26-12, and outrebounded Wilt, 39-15. The result...a 120-90 blowout win for Boston (BTW, Russell played 40 minutes to Wilt's 35.)
In a must-win game five, Wilt was back to normal, and he erupted for 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds (Russell had 22 point, on 9-16 shooting, with 27 rebounds.)
Russell did play Wilt to a draw in the clinching game six win, (again, 119-117.) Wilt outscored Russell, 26-25, while Russell outrebounded Wilt, 25-24. Chamberlain shot 8-18 from the field, to Russell's 11-26 (Russell had quite a few games in their career H2H's in which he took more FGAs that Wilt BTW.)
Still, the heavily-favored 59-16 Celtics barely survived that game six against Wilt's 49-26 Warriors. And had Wilt not badly injured his hand in game two, who knows how that series might have gone?[/QUOTE]
60-61:
[QUOTE]Wilt and Russell went at it an amazing 13 times in the regular season. Here were their overall numbers in those 13 H2H's:
Russell: 18.8 ppg, 25.4 rpg, .398 eFG%, and 3.6 apg
Wilt: 35.5 ppg, 30.6 rpg, .492 eFG%, and 1.8 apg.
Wilt outscored Russell in those 13 games, 12-1 (and Russell's margin in his lone "win" was 28-27.) Included were scoring margins of 30-13, 34-17, 44-20, 46-19, 39-6, and 46-13.
Chamberlain outrebounded Russell 9-4 in those 13 H2H's. Russell did have a 40-25 margin in one of them, however. Meanwhile, Wilt had margins of 30-19, 35-14, and get this... 55-19!
Russell did an outstanding defensive job on Wilt in their first six H2H games that season, but here were Chamberlain's numbers in their last seven straight H2H games:
38.4 ppg, 26.4 rpg, and on a .580 eFG% !!!!
Included were four games of 44, 46, 46, and 47 points.
And how about this one game against Russell on 1/14/61:
He outscored Russell, 44-20; outrebounded Russell, 35-14; outshot Russell, 17-27 to 10-20; and he even found time to block 15 shots! BTW, Chamberlain's Warriors won that game, 116-113.
That may very well have been the most dominant seven straight games in their long rivalry.
And for the second straight season, Chamberlain shot well over the league average against Russell, .492 in a league that shot an eFG% of .415, while holding Russell below it, at .398. And there would be entire seasons in which Wilt outshot him by considerably larger margins, as well.[/QUOTE]
61-62:
[QUOTE][B]Russell vs Wilt 10 regular season H2H's:
Russell: 18.5 ppg, 24.6 rpg, .383 eFG%, and 4.4 apg.
Wilt: 39.7 ppg, 28.8 rpg, .468 eFG%, and 2.1 apg.[/B]
Wilt outscored Russell in all 10 H2H's.
Wilt outrebounded Russell in 7 of the 10 H2H's.
Wilt outshot Russell from the field in 8 of the 10 H2H's.
Wilt with 5 games of 40+ points
Wilt with 2 games of 50+
High game of 62 points (on 27-45 FG/FGA, with 28 rebounds.)
Chamberlain had scoring margins of 41-28, 31-17, 26-11, 48-21, 38-11, 41-11, 52-21, and 62-23.
Wilt had rebounding margins of 30-19, and 31-18.
And for those that believe that Russell was "letting" Wilt score...how about these two B2B games:
2/9/62:
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/...202090BOS.html[/url]
2/10/62:
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/...202100PHW.html[/url]
Chamberlain rallies Philly back from a 20 point 4th quarter deficit in one game, with a 48-29 game, and then a come-from-behind 4th quarter game in which he outscored Russell, 38-11 and outrebounded him, 31-18.
And speaking of B2B games:
Wilt vs Bellamy on 11/13/61: 73 points, 29-48 FG/FGA, 36 rebounds
Wilt vs Russell on 11/14/61: 62 points, 27-45 FG/FGA, 28 rebounds
Another interesting game: 3/7/62:
Boston routs Philly, 153-102. Wilt, as always, played every minute, while Russell played 40 minutes. (It was 113-78 going into the 4th quarter.)
[B]Russell vs Wilt in the EDF's (Boston wins game seven, 109-107.)
Russell: 22.0 ppg, 25.9 rpg, .399 eFG%, and 4.6 apg.
Wilt: 33.6 ppg, 26.9 rpg, .468 eFG%, and 2.9 apg.[/B]
Wilt outscored Russell in all 7 games. They went 3-3-1 in rebounds.
Russell with two consecutive games of 31-31 and 30-31 (and Wilt outscored him in both.)
Wilt with 6 games of 30+ points.
Wilt had two games of 40+ (41 and 42 points.)
In game two, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 42-9; outrebounded Russell, 37-20; and outshot Russell, 16-31 to 4-14.
And for the third straight season, Chamberlain shot way over the league eFG% against Russell (.468 to the league eFG% of .426), while holding Russell WAY below it (.383.) And in their second straight playoff series...more of the same. Wilt shot .468 in their 7 game playoff series, in a post-season NBA that shot .411, while holding Russell to a .399 eFG%.[/QUOTE]
Continued...
Continuing...
62-63:
[QUOTE]The "Wilt-bashers" love to point this season out. How could a Wilt-led team only go 31-49? Especially in a season in which Chamberlain averaged 44.8 ppg? Obviously he was "stats-padding", especially when you consider he played 47.6 mpg, right?
They would be wrong. Wilt, as almost always, led the league in mpg, but he did so for a team that lost 35 games by single digits, was only involved in eight 20+ point decisions (going 4-4 in them), and had a -2.1 ppg differential.
Chamberlain's Warriors were sold to San Francisco, and when they moved, HOF Paul Arizin decided to retire, and "HOFer" Tom Gola pretty much decided to stay behind (and was traded.) The Warriors roster was just plain awful. They went thru 16 different players, several of whom would only play briefly in the NBA. And once again, Wilt's COACH basically asked WILT to carry that team.
And try Wilt did. He led the league in scoring, and by a huge margin, at 44.8 ppg. He led the league in rebounding, at 24.3 rpg. And he set a then record mark of a .528 eFG% (which he would go on to break three more times in his career.) In fact, he led the NBA in FIFTEEN of their 22 statistical categories, including WIN SHARES, and by a mile, of 20.9 (imagine that...21 wins out of a team that only won 31...or 70% of their wins were attributed directly to Wilt), ...and PER, with an all-time record of 31.82. And had blocked shots, TRB%, Off Reb, and Def Reb stats been kept, and he likely would have led in those, as well.
Lovellette was traded to Boston...which gave the Celtics a roster with NINE HOF players. BTW, Lovellette, who had averaged 20.9 ppg on a .471 eFG% just the season before, was now Boston's NINTH best player. He played part-time, so I will no longer include his numbers in this topic.
Bellamy didn't fare any better than Wilt. Despite a season in which he averaged 27.9 ppg, 16.4 rpg, and shot .527 from the field, his team could only go 25-55 (which was still an improvement over his rookie season of 18-62.)
Of course Russell's HOF-laden Celtics breezed to a 58-22 record, and another title (although Oscar's Royals took them to a game seven in the EDF's.). Russell averaged 16.8 ppg, 23.6 rpg, and shot .432 from the field. And, they would go 8-1 against Wilt's Warriors in their nine H2H games. HOWEVER, out of those nine games, Boston won three by margins of 127-109, 135-118, and 125-111. And in those three games, they had leads of 17, 10, and 8 points going into the 4th quarters. San Francisco beat them easily in their lone win, 128-112. In the other five games, which, of course, Boston won them all, the Celtics won by margins of 135-120, but that was deceptive, because it went into OT; 108-102 (and the Warriors led by 12 going into the 4th quarter); 118-112 (tied at 89 going into the 4th); 118-112 (Boston hung on after leading by 10 going into the 4th); and 116-113 (Boston led 85-78 going into the 4th.)
So, as you can plainly see, Russell's Celtics, with an OVERWHELMING edge in talent, struggled in nearly all of those games. And, as you will see, Wilt just annihilated Russell in the majority of them.
Ok, here were some other interesting stats: I mentioned that I would post Russell's numbers against LA (both in his regular seasons, and his post-seasons), and then compare Wilt's numbers against LA in those seasons, as well. Why? Because had Wilt had the good fortune to have played in the Western Conference in his first six seasons, instead of only two, he likely would have faced the Lakers several times in the playoffs. Instead, he never had the luxury of going against them in the post-season. BTW, as we already saw in the 61-62 season, had Wilt's Warriors scored three more points in game seven of the '62 EDF's, they would have advanced to the Finals to face those Lakers. As it was, Russell put up a 22 ppg, 27 rpg, .543 FG% seven game series against LA in the Finals. Wilt faced those Lakers nine times during that regular season, and averaged 51.6 ppg, 26.8 rpg, and shot .503 from the field. Included were three games of 60+, with a high game of 78 (to go along with 43 rebounds.) It would be more of the same in '63.
Russell vs. Wilt...9 H2H's:
[B]Russell: 15.3 ppg, 27.8 rpg, .366 eFG% (3 known games.)
Wilt: 38.1 ppg, 28.9 rpg, .497 eFG% (6 known games)[/B]
...(and missing FG%'s in games in which he scored 40 and 45 points.)
Wilt had five games of 40+, with a high game of 50 (Russell's high game against Wilt was 25 points BTW.) And Chamberlain enjoyed scoring margins over Russell of 32-18, 31-6, 50-23, 45-16, 45-12, and 43-8.
Clearly, Wilt was a "one-man wrecking crew" in his entire season, as well as against both Bellamy and Russell.
Total dominance...again.
[/QUOTE]
63-64:
[QUOTE][B]Russell-Wilt in their 8 regular season H2H's:
Russell: 14.4 ppg, 25.4 rpg, 5.4 apg (5 known games), .367 FG% (6 known)
Wilt: 29.1 ppg, 26.9 rpg, 3.7 apg (7 games), .530 FG%[/B]
Chamberlain held an 8-0 margin in scoring battles. Included were margins of 30-15, 32-16, 31-12, 35-16, and 28-8.
Wilt also won the rebounding matchups, 5-2-1.
[B]Russell-Wilt ... 5 Finals Games:
Russell: 11.2 ppg, 25.2 rpg, 6.3 apg, and on a .386 eFG%
Wilt: 29.2 ppg, 27.6 rpg, 2.4 apg, and on a .517 eFG%[/B].
Wilt went 5-0 in scoring, including margins of 30-14, 27-8, 35-16, and 32-9. He also held a 3-2 edge in rebounding H2H's, including a 38-19 shellacking.[/QUOTE]
Continued...