nah FMVP,regular season MVP.. got screwed by refs back in 2007 where dwade averaged 20 ft's a game
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nah FMVP,regular season MVP.. got screwed by refs back in 2007 where dwade averaged 20 ft's a game
idts. Dirk was rarely on shit teams but his teams never really had championship level talent besides 03 with nash/finley and ofc he got injured that year. He's one of the more underrated offensive anchors of all time. Guys like Monta Ellis and Jason Terry had some of their best years playing with Dirk and it's no coincidence. Even in the last few years, he can still anchor a mediocre team's offense well enough to lead it to the playoffs.
[QUOTE=LakersForlife]nah FMVP,regular season MVP.. [B]got screwed by refs back in 2007 where dwade averaged 20 ft's a game[/B][/QUOTE]
There are 3 statements in the bolded part and none of them are correct.
[QUOTE= NBAGOAT]He's one of the more underrated offensive anchors of all time.[/QUOTE]
I don't think he's an underrated [COLOR="Black"]scorer[/COLOR]. He has over a dozen 20 PPG seasons and is 6th all time in scoring. A legendary scorer and the stats back it up.
The Mavs sucked before Dirk got there, and will suck after Dirk retires.
Underachiever? I don't think so. I can't think of anyone else that can take an average supporting cast, and lead them to 50+ wins year after year after year.
[QUOTE=BigKAT]
I never got to watch the guy in his prime.
I've seen some games from the 2006 Finals, and 2011 and on. But that's it.
[/QUOTE]
How young are you?
[QUOTE=aj1987]
Duncan and Kobe are the only legit players he beat and props to Dirk for doing that.[/QUOTE]
Lebron James?
Dwayne Wade?
Kevin Garnett?
Steve Nash?
Kevin Durant?
Russel Westbrook?
are Manu Ginobili and Tony Parkers legit players too?
:biggums:
Dirk has a long hit list of high profile guys he has taken out at one time or another. I simply stated i believe his help wasnt quite up to par with a lot of what those guys had.. and that he did overachieve given his circumstances. You came in saying blah blah blah he lost to these teams nuggets hornets etc as if that somehow invalidated all the guys he faced outside those series.
and now you're saying the only "legit players" Dirk has ever beaten were Kobe and Duncan.. which is another falsehood.
I dont agree with AW on everything.. what would make you assume that from agreeing on one thing it has to be everything ?
[QUOTE=aj1987]There are 3 statements in the bolded part and none of them are correct.
I don't think he's an underrated [COLOR="Black"]scorer[/COLOR]. He has over a dozen 20 PPG seasons and is 6th all time in scoring. A legendary scorer and the stats back it up.[/QUOTE]
true but I think they still underrate him. I'm going guess you still have a lot ofguys like Wade and Malone over him as scorers and they definitely have better stats. However. He's lead so many mediocre teams to top 5 offenses. Also I've seen good stats evidence backing it up that Dirk was more important than Nash on offense for those early 2000's mavs and Nash is also considered one of the elite offensive players of all time.
Remember when there was a thread about how BigKAT was the best poster on the board? Good times. After this thread he is more likely to be in the "dumbest things said at ISH".
Dirk is every bit the worker that Kobe is. He just isn't as self congratulatory about it. That 2006 team that he carried to the Finals, do you know who was 2nd on the team in WS? Jason Terry. That is the kind of roster he has carried to the Finals. Or in 2011 when he won a title, who was the second best player on that team? He has a MVP and a FMVP.
Dirk is an ALL TIME GREAT. If you haven't recognized it by now go back and look. He is 6th all time in points. 7th all time in WS (and could get to 5th behind only MJ, Kareem, Wilt and Karl). His team has won more games over the years than you could expect nearly ANYONE to carry those mediocre rosters to.
he probably would have one more if marc cuban wasnt bad
[QUOTE=tpols]Lebron James?
Dwayne Wade?
Kevin Garnett?
Steve Nash?
Kevin Durant?
Russel Westbrook?
are Manu Ginobili and Tony Parkers legit players too?[/quote]
In the WC, fool. Isn't that what you were talking about in the first place? Yeah, I did forget Nash.
[QUOTE=tpols]Dirk has a long hit list of high profile guys he has taken out at one time or another. I simply stated i believe his help wasnt quite up to par with a lot of what those guys had.. and that he did overachieve given his circumstances. You came in saying blah blah blah he lost to these teams nuggets hornets etc as if that somehow invalidated all the guys he faced outside those series.[/quote]
Dirk's teams are getting hella underrated now. Either Dirk had significantly more impact than Kobe or he had great impact and a very good team around him. You don't win 67 games with below par help. A lot of those teams he had are vastly underrated.
[QUOTE= NBAGOAT]true but I think they still underrate him. I'm going guess you still have a lot ofguys like Wade and Malone over him as scorers and they definitely have better stats. However. He's lead so many mediocre teams to top 5 offenses. Also I've seen good stats evidence backing it up that Dirk was more important than Nash on offense for those early 2000's mavs and Nash is also considered one of the elite offensive players of all time.[/QUOTE]
Strictly scoring? I'll pick Wade over Dirk. Running an offense and scoring? Dirk has no case over Wade. Sure, Dirk might've better advanced metrics than Wade. I wouldn't doubt that for a second. Advanced metrics historically haven't been kind to Wade.
EDIT: Just checked.
OBPM (career):
Wade - 4.3
Dirk - 3.4
OBPM (peak):
Wade - 8.7
Career - 5.8
I really hate those "advanced" metrics though.
[QUOTE=Bosnian Sajo]How young are you?[/QUOTE]
I'm 22.
But I'm not American.
I've been following European Basketball for quite some time.
Since about 2008, When I was about 13-14 years old.
Even went to some games.
I've only started watching the NBA a few years ago.
[QUOTE=aj1987]
Dirk's teams are getting hella underrated now. Either Dirk had significantly more impact than Kobe or he had great impact and a very good team around him. You don't win 67 games with below par help. A lot of those teams he had are vastly underrated.
[/QUOTE]
LeBron won 66 games with a **** squad. And that 67 win team Dirk had JET and Josh Howard as its #2 and #3 options. Howard was good for a few years. But he wasn't THAT good. And JET... well no.
And Dirk DOES have 27 more WS in fewer years than Kobe. And his RAPM is significantly higher as well. And those are about the biggest sample sizes you will ever see.
[QUOTE=aj1987]In the WC, fool. Isn't that what you were talking about in the first place? Yeah, I did forget Nash.
Dirk's teams are getting hella underrated now. Either Dirk had significantly more impact than Kobe or he had great impact and a very good team around him. You don't win 67 games with below par help. A lot of those teams he had are vastly underrated.
Strictly scoring? I'll pick Wade over Dirk. Running an offense and scoring? Dirk has no case over Wade. Sure, Dirk might've better advanced metrics than Wade. I wouldn't doubt that for a second. Advanced metrics historically haven't been kind to Wade.
EDIT: Just checked.
OBPM (career):
Wade - 4.3
Dirk - 3.4
OBPM (peak):
Wade - 8.7
Career - 5.8
I really hate those "advanced" metrics though.[/QUOTE]
see I disagree but I don't want to sound like AW. Those teams were not shit like 06 Lakers or 09 Heat or even 09 Cavs but they didn't have championship level talent. If they were, his peak be put at lebron's level. Still,leading those teams to 4th, 1st, and 2nd in ortg from 05-07 is damn impressive you gotta admit. Running an offense is still in wade's favor since he's been a better playmaker but I'm just talking being an offense anchor. Dirk's spacing effect is GOAT level. Wade's spacing effect is underrated if you just look at him not being a 3pt shooter as you have shown in previous posts but it's still not at Dirk's level. Also what about Malone? He has stats as good as almost anyone and obviously better than Dirk(a 30+ppg season, 12 25ppg+ seasons, almost identical career ts%). I'm guessing you're not as sure about that one however. Dirk's spacing opens up the floor for everyone else. Small examples include how like Monta/Dirk and Terry/Dirk were always near the top for most effective pnr duo's. I'm going steal a post from colts18 on realGM who uses +/- stats which are affected a lot by context but still pretty useful.
[QUOTE=colts18]
2001: 53 wins, 4th in O rating
-11.3 off, +20.1 plus/minus
109.4 O rating on court, 99.9 off, +9.5
2002- 57 wins, 1st in O rating
-3.0 off, +10.3 plus/minus
114.6 O Rating on court, 105.1 off, +9.5
2003-60 wins, 1st in O rating
Dirk: -8.8 off court, +21.7 Plus/minus
113.7 O rating on, 99.4 off, +14.3
2004- 52 wins, 1st in O rating: Rated the #1 offense of all-time by O rating
-2.0 off court, +9.2 plus/minus
113.9 O rating on, 106.8 off, +7.1
2005- 58 wins, 4th in O rating
DIrk: -6 off court, +15.3
112.1 O rating on court, 102 off, +12.1 in offense
2006- 60 wins, 1st in O rating
Dirk: -0.6 off court, +8.5
115.4 O rating on court, 104.5 off, +10.9
2007-67 wins, 2nd in O rating
Dirk: -1.6 off court, +12.4
116.6 O rating on court, 101.9 off, +14.7
Very much a deserved MVP
2008- 51 wins, 8th in O rating
Dirk: -4.4 off court, +12.7
115.6 O rating on court, 104 off, +11.6
2009- 50 wins, 5th in O rating
Dirk: -4.2 off court, +8
112.9 O rating on court, 106.3 off, +6.6
2010- 55 wins, 10th in O rating
Dirk: -6.2 off court, +11.7
111.6 O rating on court, 106.1 off, +5.5
2011- 57 wins, 8th in O rating
Dirk: -6.1 off court, +16.3
114.4 O rating on court, 104.3 off, +10.1
So here are Dirk's averages
56.4 wins, 4.1 in O rating (4 #1 finishes, 8 top 5, 11/11 in top 10)
-5.1 Off court, +13.9 +/- (He's +14.1 if you include 2012 into this)
113.3 O rating on court, 102.3 off, +11 on offense
That's right, in every single season plus minus is available, Dirk's team has been a negative when he was off the court. He won 50+ games in every single one of those seasons, yet every single season they sucked without him especially on offense. That +11 on offense puts him up there with MJ and Nash as the GOAT of offense [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]Remember when there was a thread about how BigKAT was the best poster on the board? Good times. After this thread he is more likely to be in the "dumbest things said at ISH".
[B]Dirk is every bit the worker that Kobe is[/B]. He just isn't as self congratulatory about it. That 2006 team that he carried to the Finals, do you know who was 2nd on the team in WS? Jason Terry. That is the kind of roster he has carried to the Finals. Or in 2011 when he won a title, who was the second best player on that team? He has a MVP and a FMVP.
Dirk is an ALL TIME GREAT. If you haven't recognized it by now go back and look. He is 6th all time in points. 7th all time in WS (and could get to 5th behind only MJ, Kareem, Wilt and Karl). His team has won more games over the years than you could expect nearly ANYONE to carry those mediocre rosters to.[/QUOTE]
I'm not even a Kobe fan, but I'd take Kobe 10 times out of 10 over Dirk, despite Lakers missing the playoffs (which the Mavs have done also). Just a better all around player.
And to be fair, in 2006-2007 Josh Howard emerged as an All-Star and Avery Johnson won COTY the year prior while turning the Mavs into a team that actually played elite defense (Avery coming from the Spurs' camp, even admitting to adapting some of the playbook)... Josh Howard at the time was drawing comparisons to Manu Ginobili in terms of impact right here on ISH.
The 2006 Mavs won 60 games and 2007 Mavs won 67 games and it generally takes a good, cohesive [I]team[/I] to win that much.
I don't think anyone would claim he had the best or most stacked teams ever, but it would be disingenuous to say Dirk's best teams were "mediocre" based on only his #2 option. His best teams were deep. Dude played with Nash like 12 months before Nash won multiple MVP's
How many GM's over the years said they would have liked to start their team with Dirk above all other players?
[QUOTE=NBAGOAT]see I disagree but I don't want to sound like AW. Those teams were not shit like 06 Lakers or 09 Heat or even 09 Cavs but they didn't have championship level talent. If they did, his peak be put at lebron's level. Still,leading those teams to 4th, 1st, and 2nd in ortg from 05-07 is damn impressive you gotta admit. Running an offense is still in wade's favor since he's been a better playmaker but I'm just talking being an offense anchor.[/quote]
Come on, dude. Peak Dirk wasn't on prime LeBron's level. Prime/peak LeBron/Wade the among the best scorers and defenders in the league, while also being elite passers.
Also, it's quite difficult to quantify Wade's offense with ORtg, as he has never really played with on a good team (outside his prime and without Shaq/LeBron).
[QUOTE=NBAGOAT]Dirk's spacing effect is GOAT level. Wade's spacing effect is underrated if you just look at him not being a 3pt shooter as you have shown in previous posts but it's still not at Dirk's level. [/quote]
Actually, Wade was ranked 10th in respect rating and Dirk 47th.
To recap, gravity score measures how closely a player's defender sticks to him off the ball. Higher gravity scores generally belong to bigs because their primary defender must stay close and also protect the basket. On the other hand, guards typically have lower gravity scores simply because defenders have more liberty to shade off their guy on the perimeter. But elite shooters typically generate more attention off the ball.
Then there's distraction score, which quantifies how much a player's defender is willing to help off the ball to stop the ball handler. The worse he is as a shooter, the more likely his defender will be distracted by the ball handler. To identify the most effective floor-spacers in the NBA, I created a composite score that combines the two metrics. The result is what I've called "respect rating," which has now been translated to a 1-to-100 scale with 100 being the most magnetic (think sharpshooters) and 1 being least magnetic (think non-scoring bigs).
1. Stephen Curry, Golden State Warriors | Respect rating: 97.9
Gravity score: 97.3 | Distraction score: 98.4
2. Kyle Korver, Atlanta Hawks | Respect rating: 96.0
Gravity score: 92.3 | Distraction score: 99.7
3. Klay Thompson, Golden State Warriors | Respect rating: 94.4
Gravity score: 89.6 | Distraction score: 99.1
4. Mike Conley, Memphis Grizzlies | Respect rating: 87.5
Gravity score: 79.3 | Distraction score: 95.7
5. Gordon Hayward, Utah Jazz | Respect rating: 84.0
Gravity score: 72.1 | Distraction score: 95.9
6. James Harden, Houston Rockets | Respect rating: 83.3
Gravity score: 67.2 | Distraction score: 99.3
7. J.R. Smith, New York Knicks | Respect rating: 83.0
Gravity score: 89.0 | Distraction score: 76.9
8. Jamal Crawford, Los Angeles Clippers | Respect rating: 81.6
Gravity score: 67.9 | Distraction score: 95.2
9. Manu Ginobili, San Antonio Spurs | Respect rating: 81.4
Gravity score: 65.4 | Distraction score: 97.3
10. Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat | Respect rating: 79.7
Gravity score: 82.2 | Distraction score: 77.1
Once again, Wade is the interesting outlier to the idea that it's typically 3pt shooters dominating this list, because he's such a crafty and opportunistic off-ball slasher and defenses key in on him even more with LeBron gone. JR Smith might be small-sample-size noise (he's barely above the 500 minute cut-off and ranked 118th last year).
Curry, Korver, and Klay are just in a class of their own in Gravity score (aside from JR's probably fluke-ish score), with Curry being even significantly higher than the other two. But Curry's only 4th in "Distraction" score; no one touches Korver there and so far it's actually Harden whom defenses have been second least likely to help off of.
He theorizes that the max contracts may have something to do with Klay's (only up 5 spots but definitely on another tier now) and Hayward's (24th to 5th) leaps up the rankings, though I disagree because we know Klay's taken his game to another level and Hayward's been much better from downtown. Plus, I don't know where he ranked before but Chandler Parsons is waaaaay down the list (see below). He also notes drop-offs from Chris Paul and JJ Redick from the top 20 last year to outside of the top 50 in Gravity (possibly due to a big increase in long 2s from Griffin)
Notables: Kobe Bryant (13th); Derrick Rose (14th); Carmelo Anthony (31st); Russell Westbrook (39th); Chris Paul (45th); Dirk Nowitzki (47th); LaMarcus Aldridge (72nd); LeBron James (73rd); Tony Parker (77th); Chris Bosh (86th); Kyrie Irving (97th); Lance Stephenson (99th); Anthony Davis (114th); Monta Ellis (168th); Kevin Love (177th); Rajon Rondo (182nd); Tony Allen (188th); Chandler Parsons (211st); Elfrid Payton (223rd).
Heck, Wade was getting doubled and tripled a hella lot even in the PO's last season. A completely out of his prime Wade.
[QUOTE=NBAGOAT]Also what about Malone? He has stats as good as almost anyone and obviously better than Dirk(a 30+ppg season, 12 25ppg+ seasons, almost identical career ts%). I'm guessing you're not as sure about that one however. Dirk's spacing opens up the floor for everyone else. Small examples include how like Monta/Dirk and Terry/Dirk were always near the top for most effective pnr duo's. I'm going steal a post from colts18 on realGM who uses +/- stats which are affected a lot by context but still pretty useful.[/QUOTE]
If you picked them in a vacuum and were told to build teams around them to win a ring, it'd be easier to build around Malone. Malone is an elite scorer, rebounder, defender, and is actually quite a capable passer as well. He's a more well rounded player than Dirk.