Goat debate

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

stats count when you compare Mj to Kareem/Russell, but not when comapring Lebron to Mj/Kobe etc.

[/Quote]
Max Kellerman said MJ had higher PER, offensive efficiency, peak, ppg and other things

So no one said stats don't matter with lebron vs MJ, because stats are an advantage for MJ over lebron

You're just delusional and have made up your own truth about what is going on.. and Kareem is all-time scoring leader (same longevity achievement as lebron), so your argument contradicts itself anyway.


[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

actually Lebron was a great peak defender just didn't do it over a long period of time. Remember he has 2 2nd place finishes for dpoy.

[/QUOTE]
So longevity on defense doesn't matter? Only offense?

Lebron wasn't a great defender for most of his Finals

[QUOTE=Manny98]Because you need a combo of stats/winning/individual accolades to be in the GOAT debate

[/QUOTE]

I would add intangibles or cultural impact as a fourth criteria...guys who advanced the sport itself. Things like VC being the best in-game dunker or Drazen opening up the NBA to European players aren't things that are recorded in stats or accolades but figure into their all time rankings.

[QUOTE='Toine=MVP]This is a bad way of breaking it down.

Greatness has to be broken down into two parts and both are subjective:

Part 1: How would a player do if he played in different eras (mainly variations of modern eras) with the training and coaching strategies of those eras?

The things we look at very closely to get an answer to part 1 are things like the eye test, rings (but also the flip side like counting major failures), and stats (also projected stats), probably in that order as you said. But those are just sub categories. We can be pretty confident that Bird in today's era would have been at least in the running for the 2nd best 3 point shooter to Steph, but he didn't shoot a ton of 3s in his era because of the strategies of the day.

Part 2 (more important than Part 1): What was the net positive impact this player had on the sport and legacy of professional basketball (counting ABA and NBA)?

Here we get a very different leader group. Guys like LeBron especially but also Kareem to some degree fall really really short in this important category. The top GOATs in this are Russell and Wilt, Bird and Magic, Jordan, and to some level Shaq. [B]LeBron has a net negative rating as he was never a big star that made people excited about the NBA[/B] and also has a negative legacy in many ways (ushered in the FA superteam era).[/QUOTE]
This dude always talks out his ass :oldlol:

Yeah, LeBron was never a big star in the league, regular Rudy Gay

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]nah, we're having a disconnect because I'm not saying any of the things you think I'm saying. I don't have clearcut Goat anymore but gun to my head I'm still saying Mj. It's just my thinking on the subject has evolved over time to the point i accept a couple other guys cases for goat. Mj is worthy of the title so no twisting needs to ever be done to validate it, the gymnastics come from the desperate need by fans to put him so far away from the others that there's no debate. The most wrongly spread thought about goat is there's a correct answer to the question. Yes there are laughable answers but how can you in good faith say Mj is goat beyond a shadow of doubt when you never saw Wilt in his prime aside from youtube highlights? Same for Russell and Kareem. When more than half of the top 5 played before most of us were even born how can there ever be a consensus?[/QUOTE]

Well that is a bit better than what it seemed like you were saying. But you are only asking how we can tell which player was more talented. We can tell a bit more about each player than simply trying to tell who is the most talented.

Players legacies are going to be dependent on the moment they are in. That is all part of it. Maybe if they 80s was like the current era, Magic Johnson would have followed LeBron's lead and joined the Celtics. Or maybe Jordan would have joined the Pistons or something. Could have happened, but it didn't happen and there are some good reasons to think those personalities wouldn't have done it.

We know Kareem disappeared during his peak while playing in the 2nd best professional basketball league. These things happened. He was considered "not Wilt" in his day. Just like Kobe was considered "not Jordan" in his era.

We know that Bird and Magic and later Jordan had a huge positive impact on the sport and were players that very few people were slamming as frauds or overrated etc during their peaks. We know that happened with Kobe and LeBron. Was it fair? Eh. Probably to some degree. Might it have happened to any player in this era of internet trolls? Maybe. But it didn't happen.

All this stuff goes into the greatness calculation. It isn't just about who had the most talent.

[QUOTE=3ball]Max Kellerman said MJ had higher PER, offensive efficiency, peak, ppg and other things

So no one said stats don't matter with lebron vs MJ, because stats are an advantage for MJ over lebron

You're just delusional and have made up your own truth about what is going on.. and Kareem is all-time scoring leader (same longevity achievement as lebron), so your argument contradicts itself anyway.



So longevity on defense doesn't matter? Only offense?

Lebron wasn't a great defender for most of his Finals[/QUOTE]
This ain't a Jordan vs. Lebron thread pookie. You aint getting your fix here.
[IMG]https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WeightyFlawlessDipper-max-1mb.gif[/IMG]


And yeah there's a such thing as career, prime, and peak for any category of ball. You can figure out which is which in one of your meltdown reaction threads later tonight.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]This dude always talks out his ass :oldlol:

Yeah, LeBron was never a big star in the league, regular Rudy Gay[/QUOTE]

The league has been desperate for a big star for years. Do you recall all the hype Steph was getting a few years ago? Slow motion commercials that people liked more than the show they were watching. People crowning him the best player in the league before it became obvious he was no where close to the best. LeBron was far far better (as was Durant and others), but it didn't matter. People were dying for a star. The NBA was dying to promote a star.

Coming LeBron to Rudy Gay is just dumb. I'm comparing his star power to peak star power of Bird, Magic, Jordan, Shaq, and a very very very tiny peak inflated star power of Steph.

Hell, people went crazy with Linsanity because they were desperate for someone to root for.

[QUOTE='Toine=MVP]
We know that Bird and Magic and later Jordan had a huge positive impact on the sport and were players that very few people were slamming as frauds or overrated etc during their peaks. We know that happened with Kobe and LeBron. Was it fair? Eh. Probably to some degree. Might it have happened to any player in this era of internet trolls? Maybe. But it didn't happen.

All this stuff goes into the greatness calculation. It isn't just about who had the most talent.[/QUOTE]
Kobe and Lebron had a positive impact on the sport as well. They were torch bearers like the others you mentioned. And people weren't slamming them because they didn't play in this era, you know this. What would we say if Lebron was out gambling during a playoff series when people wouldn't shut up about a studio session last week while he wasn't even active for the next game. What would we say if Lebron punched Hart in practice, or Kd told a story where Lebron called himself basketball jesus or bought Curry jewelry before a finals series? Nobody gives the same scrutiny to past greats as they do for current greats.

Besides longevity, not seeing the case for Lebron.

And Kareem actually has him beat there.

Jordan had better stats than Lebron (advanced metrics also in MJ's favor). Won twice as much. Had more skills. Fundamentally understood the game @ a level Bron neither reached or could grasp.

The only 4 guys with a case imo: Jordan/Russell/Kareem/Wilt

Kareem for longevity (he also won a lot and had good stats).
Wilt for numbers and dominance
Russell for sheer wins
Jordan for a combination of winning, numbers and dominance (statistically nobody is in "playoff MJ" class; we all know Wilt doesn't come close).

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Besides longevity, not seeing the case for Lebron.

And Kareem actually has him beat there.

Jordan had better stats than Lebron (advanced metrics also in MJ's favor). Won twice as much. Had more skills.[B] Fundamentally understood the game @ a level Bron neither reached or could grasp.[/B]

The only 4 guys with a case imo: Jordan/Russell/Kareem/Wilt

Kareem for longevity (he also won a lot and had good stats).
Wilt for numbers and dominance
Russell for sheer wins
Jordan for a combination of winning, numbers and dominance (statistically nobody is in "playoff MJ" class; we all know Wilt doesn't come close).[/QUOTE]
how is the bolded something you can even prove or quantify in any way? Kinda telling of your stance......

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]how is the bolded something you can even prove or quantify in any way? Kinda telling of your stance......[/QUOTE]

Because I don't have Lebron as GOAT, you highlighted that bit :oldlol:

Far as the "bold" goes?

I mean, if I have to explain why Jordan is more fundamentally sound to you...you probably haven't watched either enough. Period.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]

This dude always talks out his ass :oldlol:

Yeah, LeBron was never a big star in the league, regular Rudy Gay

[/QUOTE]
[B]Lebron had negative net rating[/B] in the 04' regular season, 06' playoffs, all his Finals losses, the [url=https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/advanced/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]2013 Finals[/url], and the [url=https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/advanced/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]4th quarters[/url] of this season

Yes, lebron was carried to the 2013 Finals victory despite being a net negative himself.. that's pathetic..

he's not top 5 all-time - that's already becoming consensus after this season's debacle, and after a few more years of LeDecline, he'll be out of the top 10

[QUOTE=3ball]Max Kellerman said MJ had higher PER, offensive efficiency, peak, ppg and other things

So no one said stats don't matter with lebron vs MJ, because stats are an advantage for MJ over lebron [/quote]

No they aren't:

[B]PER[/B]
1. [B]Jordan 27.91[/B]
2. James 27.60

[B]Win Shares[/B]
[B]4. James 225.77 (and counting)[/B]
5. Jordan 214.02

[B]Box +/-[/B]
[B]1. James 9.13[/B]
2. Jordan 8.60

[B]VORP
1. James 128.89 (and counting)[/B]
2. Jordan 104.43

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Because I don't have Lebron as GOAT, you highlighted that bit :oldlol:

Far as the "bold" goes?

I mean, if I have to explain why Jordan is more fundamentally sound to you...you probably haven't watched either enough. Period.[/QUOTE]
you can have whoever you choose your preference is pretty clear and i don't have an axe to grind either way. i pointed out the bolded because fundamental understanding of the game is a broad term and i dont agree. fundamental skills? sure have at it. fundamental understanding? cant quantify that bro.

[QUOTE=4pointshot]No they aren't:

[B]PER[/B]
1. [B]Jordan 27.91[/B]
2. James 27.60

[B]Win Shares[/B]
[B]4. James 225.77 (and counting)[/B]
5. Jordan 214.02

[B]Box +/-[/B]
[B]1. James 9.13[/B]
2. Jordan 8.60

[B]VORP
1. James 128.89 (and counting)[/B]
2. Jordan 104.43[/QUOTE]
[B]You posted total win shares, which is meaningless (longevity-based)

[I][COLOR="Navy"]MJ leads in average win shares (ws/48)

Only MJ is top 2 all-time in VORP, BPM, WS/48, and PER for regular season and playoffs..... And he set the record for plus-minus.. so MJ owns the advanced stats easily..[/COLOR][/I]. :confusedshrug:[/B]

rings should have the highest weight and it should factor how you won it. Was it a ringchaser or role player or the man. Stats are deceiving coz players can statpad.