top 5 two way players in nba history ( aka the real top 5 players in nba history )

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Winning 44 games with young rashard and the remains of alcoholic era Vin Baker is supposed to eliminate someone from being all D because 44 wins put you in 10th place?

Swap Lewis for Shaq I

[QUOTE=kennethgriffen]a conference is 15 teams.. not one team... you nitwit[/QUOTE]
We know the game Kenny. When Kobe faces a team they're historical great, while every team LeBron has ever faced is historically bad.


SSDD ...... :sleeping

You and I clearly are looking for different things for all D team voting.

Im looking first for one thing....who the better defender was.

In fact...that may be the only thing im looking for with a slight nod towards playing enough of the season to be reasonable.

Wilt
Hakeem
Kawahi
Jordan
Gary Payton

[QUOTE=kennethgriffen]90% of steals and blocks by non post players are actually attained by NOT playing defense and instead leaking out for chase downs/playing passing lanes etc...

its why most people were tricked into thinking a younger lebron was a DPOTY candidate. later when they actually watched his finals defense exposed highlight compilations they realized the truth[/QUOTE]
That's not true at all and making the mistake of thinking that on ball defence is the only defence there is. There's on and off ball defence. There are plaenty of guys who were average on ball defenders but great off ball but they could still influence a game on the defensive end. Obviously mj was a better defender because he was great on and off ball but it doesn't mean LeBron was a bad defender.

[QUOTE=Bronbron23]That's not true at all and making the mistake of thinking that on ball defence is the only defence there is. There's on and off ball defence. There are plaenty of guys who were average on ball defenders but great off ball but they could still influence a game on the defensive end. Obviously mj was a better defender because he was great on and off ball but it doesn't mean LeBron was a bad defender.[/QUOTE]


actually it is entirely true and why allen iverson (an absolute abysmal defender) was leading the league in steals

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]You and I clearly are looking for different things for all D team voting.

Im looking first for one thing....who the better defender was.

In fact...that may be the only thing im looking for with a slight nod towards playing enough of the season to be reasonable.[/QUOTE]


youve never been one to allow yourself to go with the grain. i expect nothing less than you to argue a lottery team player to deserve major awards

Not repping worse defenders for an all defensive team because they have better players on their team giving them better records. Irrelevant information.

Of course OP has Kobe in his little list. He's not even close to being one of the best two players in nba history. He was regularly a negative defensively throughout his career.

[QUOTE=kennethgriffen]sorry... its the no chokers club

winning finals records only

[IMG]https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HealthyWealthyAfricanbushviper-mobile.jpg[/IMG]


[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/ZGWem.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

ChokerS... you're allowed to have one.

[QUOTE=Smoke117]Of course OP has Kobe in his little list. He's not even close to being one of the best two players in nba history. He was regularly a negative defensively throughout his career.[/QUOTE]


You are not allowed to bring up facts.. You know even Kobe's coach Phil Jackson said KObe was not good on defense..

Long time Mentor Tex Winters said Kobe was not good on defense..

I will say that Kobe was a good defender especially in that first year that the Lakers won a title.. But after that I would say he GOT worse every year..

[QUOTE=NBASTATMAN]You are not allowed to bring up facts.. You know even Kobe's coach Phil Jackson said KObe was not good on defense..

Long time Mentor Tex Winters said Kobe was not good on defense..

I will say that Kobe was a good defender especially in that first year that the Lakers won a title.. But after that I would say he GOT worse every year..[/QUOTE]

Kobe basically destroyed any prestige the all defensive team had when he was put on the team when he was literally a negative player defensively. I will say he played better defense in the playoffs, but the whole point of being on the all defensive team is consistency...being a consistent defender throughout the long 82 game season and Kobe was, frankly, never that besides 2000. What makes it even worse is he was being put on the team over a guy like Dwyane Wade who was a far superior defensive player.

[QUOTE=Smoke117]Kobe basically destroyed any prestige the all defensive team had when he was put on the team when he was literally a negative player defensively. I will say he played better defense in the playoffs, but the whole point of being on the all defensive team is consistency...being a consistent defender throughout the long 82 game season and Kobe was, frankly, never that besides 2000. What makes it even worse is he was being put on the team over a guy like Dwyane Wade who was a far superior defensive player.[/QUOTE]


:cheers:

Can't argue with OP on this one.

[QUOTE=PickernRoller]Can't argue with JERRY WEST on this one.Lebron is up there with MJ[/QUOTE]


:cheers: :applause: