Jordan won 6 rings in a weak 22-27 team league, half were expansion.

Expansion had an impact, just look at rosters of top teams in 1985 and compare to 1996.

The Bulls' benefited because they were the only team with two MVP caliber players for the entire run and then they added a 3rd HOF player. No other team had two MVP caliber players (other than Orlando for two years). Houston had 3 HOF in 97', 98'--but all were past their primes (Pippen was still in his prime while Jordan wasn't but remained the best player).

In other words, the Bulls were a fluke and before the player movement era no other team could make a move to catch them.

Look at who the second best team of the 90's was: the Jazz (Rockets won chips but didn't do much for much of the decade whereas Utah contended every year). That is the "other" team that had 2 HOF players for the entire run. The only difference is Stockton wasn't a superstar, wasn't a MVP caliber player, etc. so his peak was a lot lower.

Other than the 90's and 00's, any contender would need multiple HOF. Those were outliers. In the 90's a team could contend with Reggie Miller as their best player (Klay without the defense). Can you imagine a team with Klay Thompson as their best player contending today or in the 80's?

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14169142]photoshop my ass.

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?476328-Which-LBJ-record-is-unbreakable&p=14019756&viewfull=1#post14019756[/url]

:roll:[/QUOTE]

Lol what a low IQ dum retard :lol

[QUOTE=kawhileonard2;14169137]Photoshop is a good tool these days. Can make stuff up on the go. Let's focus on what was said.[/QUOTE]

Stone cold busted

:oldlol:

22-27 is fine, its the same number of teams in playoffs anyway. Russell's era was different since the playoffs were shorter, the postseason is what matters.

[QUOTE=Kiddlovesnets;14169464]22-27 is fine, its the same number of teams in playoffs anyway. Russell's era was different since the playoffs were shorter, the postseason is what matters.[/QUOTE]

The issue isn't the # of teams [I]per se[/I]. The issue is the extent and pace of expansion in a short window of time. In 1988 there were 23 teams; by 1996 there were 29. Just look at rosters from before this expansion and after and it is obvious rosters got diluted. Less HOF, less all-NBA, etc. players on top teams than before. This continued until player movement reversed "re-stacked" teams.

You virgins need to talk about something else. Its the same shit every day.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14169441]Expansion had an impact, just look at rosters of top teams in 1985 and compare to 1996.

[B]The Bulls' benefited because they were the only team with two MVP caliber players for the entire run[/B] and then they added a 3rd HOF player. [B]No other team had two MVP caliber players (other than Orlando for two years)[/B]. Houston had 3 HOF in 97', 98'--but all were past their primes (Pippen was still in his prime while Jordan wasn't but remained the best player).[/QUOTE]

More deception from TheFakeBullsFan. When playing together, Pippen finished top ten in MVP voting [I]four[/I] times. Let's take a look at year by year for their entire tenure together (minus rookie Pippen), with other top 10 vote getters of the same team, including the 90s.

[U]1989[/U]
Malone - 3rd
Stockton - 7th

K. Johnson - 8th
Chambers - 9th

[U]1990[/U]
Malone - 4th
Stockton - 9th

[U]1991[/U]
Drexler - 4th
Porter - 9th

[U]1992[/U]
Mullin - 6th
Hardaway - 8th

[U]1993[/U]
Price - 8th
Daughtery - 10th

[U]1995[/U]
Malone - 3rd
Stockton - 8th

Shaq - 2nd
Penny - 10th

[U]1996[/U]
Kemp - 6th
Payton - 8th

Penny - 3rd
Shaq- 9th

[U]1997[/U]
Rice - 5th
Mason - 9th

[U]1998[/U]
Duncan - 5th
Robinson - 7th

Payton - 3rd
Baker - 8th

If the retort is MJ was usually at the top, then that's a credit to MJ. Pippen finished top 5 alongside MJ [B]once[/B]. :confusedshrug:

Watch TheFakeBullsFan make another essay post where he completely sidesteps the the reality of what he just said.

The 90's were really weaker than the 80's. It would be foolish to say otherwise but part of that weakness also comes from the Bulls' strength. There is a lot of result bias. For example, if the Bulls lost some of those Finals to the Blazers/Suns/Sonics, good chance some guys like Terry Porter, Buck Williams, Kevin Johnson, Shawn Kemp, Jeff Hornacek would have made the HOF. This whole argument could only work against Jordan if his teams were extraordinarily stacked relative to his era like the Warriors in 2018 with 4 HOFers in their primes playing 1 HOFer opponents but they weren't. The Bulls were talented but the 1st threepeat Bulls only had 2 HOFers and 2nd threepeat Bulls had 3 HOFers of which one of them (Rodman) is far from first ballot. 1991 Pistons had 3 HOFers, 1991 Lakers had 3 HOFers, 1997 and 1998 Jazz had 2 HOFers and 1995 Rockets had 2 HOFers. And we could and will see more players from the 90's still make it into the hall.

[QUOTE=dankok8;14169986]The 90's were really weaker than the 80's. It would be foolish to say otherwise but part of that weakness also comes from the Bulls' strength. There is a lot of result bias. For example, if the Bulls lost some of those Finals to the Blazers/Suns/Sonics, good chance some guys like Terry Porter, Buck Williams, Kevin Johnson, Shawn Kemp, Jeff Hornacek would have made the HOF. This whole argument could only work against Jordan if his teams were extraordinarily stacked relative to his era like the Warriors in 2018 with 4 HOFers in their primes playing 1 HOFer opponents but they weren't. The Bulls were talented but the 1st threepeat Bulls only had 2 HOFers and 2nd threepeat Bulls had 3 HOFers of which one of them (Rodman) is far from first ballot. 1991 Pistons had 3 HOFers, 1991 Lakers had 3 HOFers, 1997 and 1998 Jazz had 2 HOFers and 1995 Rockets had 2 HOFers. And we could and will see more players from the 90's still make it into the hall.[/QUOTE]

The HOF argument is silly. What matters is how well those players played at the time they were playing. A lot of the guys MJ faced on those teams were on elite teams with a ton of talent, but had unfortunate circumstances which resulted in their careers being shortened. If not for that, they would likely all be in the HOF. Yet MJ gets persecuted as if that's his fault.

Guys like Reggie Lewis and Drazen Petrovic died. As unfortunate as those deaths were, both of those guys were shaping up to be elite players capable of doing great things. And that Nets team together with Coleman and Anderson would have been a threat for years to come.

Daughtery, Cummings, Rice, KJ, Penny, Kemp, LJ, and Harper all had shortened careers due to injuries, cocaine, or whatever. To pit the blame on MJ as if he controlled where they ended up is unfair.

Not to mention, the discussion isn't apples to apples. Over a 15 year span, LeBron played in 45 playoff series to MJ's 37. Law of probabilities tells us that it's more likely that LeBron would have faced more HOF'ers anyway, especially in an era of colluding.

But even if we concede to this point, it doesn't override all of the other arguments in favor of MJ.

[QUOTE=dankok8;14169986]The 90's were really weaker than the 80's. It would be foolish to say otherwise but part of that weakness also comes from the Bulls' strength. [/QUOTE]

Look at the other thread on the 80's. As someone noted, if you didn't have 3 surefire HOF players you weren't winning then (and these teams often had a 4th or even 5th borderline HOFer). Compare those rosters to the 90's. The 94' Rockets won with Otis Thorpe as their second best player against a team whose second best player was John Starks.

[QUOTE]good chance some guys like Terry Porter, Buck Williams, Kevin Johnson, Shawn Kemp, Jeff Hornacek would have made the HOF[/QUOTE]

Maybe KJ and Kemp but no way the other guys make it. Hornacek was a 1x all-star, Porter 2x, Williams 3x. Only Williams was all-NBA, and I believe only once 8-9 years before the 92' finals.

How important are rings? Iggy has 3, won a FMVP, team USA member, and is a 1x all-star. He has a more impressive resume in these areas than Hornacek. Other than some LeBron stans, I don't see anyone calling Iggy a HOFer.

Or look at MJ's teams. Grant, BJ, Cartwright made as many all-star teams as Hornacek and have at least 3 rings (Grant has 4). Are they HOF?

[QUOTE]This whole argument could only work against Jordan if his teams were extraordinarily stacked relative to his era like the Warriors in 2018 with 4 HOFers in their primes playing 1 HOFer opponents but they weren't. The Bulls were talented but the 1st threepeat Bulls only had 2 HOFers and 2nd threepeat Bulls had 3 HOFers of which one of them (Rodman) is far from first ballot. 1991 Pistons had 3 HOFers, 1991 Lakers had 3 HOFers, 1997 and 1998 Jazz had 2 HOFers and 1995 Rockets had 2 HOFers[/QUOTE]

You are underselling their advantage. Look at "only" 2 HOFers. How many did the comp have? You listed the Lakers but you know Divac was a 1x all-star (10 years later) and is in the HOF for his international play. That would be akin to Kukoc making the HOF.

You looked and found only a handful of other teams with multiple HOFers. Let's look at the Bulls versus their Finals and ECF opponents.

1991 ECF: Bulls 2 vs. 3 for DET
1991 Finals: 2 vs. 3 for LAL, with the caveat above
1992 ECF: 2 vs. 0 for CLE
1992 Finals: 2 vs. 1 for POR
1993 ECF: 2 vs. 1 for NY
1993 Finals: 2 vs. 1 for PHX
1996 ECF: 3 vs. 1 for ORL
1996 Finals: 3 vs. 1 for SEA
1997 ECF: 4 vs. 1 for MIA
1997 Finals: 4 vs. 2 for UTA
1998 ECF: 3 vs. 2 for IND
1998 Finals: 3 vs. 2 for IND

Parish shouldn't count for 97' since he rode the CHI bench but Mullin wasn't a HOF player in 98' for IND either. He was their 5th best player.

Any way you slice it, the Bulls consistently have the edge after 91'...in literally none of these series after 91' does any team equal them.

Moreover, you noted in the Rodman reference that not all HOF players are equal (Rodman was in decline by the end of the run but the same can be said of Stockton, who was more like 11' Kidd in 98' than the Stockton we hear about). How many of these players were all-NBA 1st team caliber players? DET had 1, LAL had 1, CLE had 1, POR had 1, PHX had 1, NY had 1, ORL had 2, SEA had 1, MIA had 2, UTA had 2. MVP caliber (let's define that by being top 5 at some point)? DET 1, LAL 1, CLE 0, POR 1, PHX 1, NY 1, ORL 2, SEA 1, MIA 2, UTA 1. Now consider the "number" for the Bulls would be 2 in each case.

When you look at MVP level or all-NBA 1st teams the gap closes a bit but the Bulls still have an obvious edge.

One frequent response from the MJ crowd is we have to look at teams since it is not all about stars (except for LeBron's teams :oldlol: ). The answer there is 55 wins. No other team from that era could lose its best player 3 weeks before the season and contend for the #1 seed.

The Bulls went 72-10 with MJ. What do MJ fans think would happen sans MJ? 42-40? 37-45? Was MJ worth 30-35 wins? You would have to think something like that to think the team isn't stacked because any team that can win 55+ or even 50+ without its best player is a stacked/elite "cast."

[QUOTE=light;14168976]Charles Barkley, 1994:

[INDENT][I]"The league has deteriorated. You have bad general managers drafting bad players. It's like the NFL. The older players are moving on, and the younger ones aren't there yet. You look at some of the guys starting in this league these days and it makes you shake your head."[/I][/INDENT]

Dennis Rodman, 1997:

[INDENT][I]"We could not have won 70 games playing against 1980's teams."[/I][/INDENT]

Larry Bird, 1996:

[INDENT][I]"I think the expansion teams have really hurt the league, I think it's depleted the talent in our league."[/I][/INDENT]

Bob Costas, 1996:

[INDENT][I]"Dr. J had Larry and Magic to test himself against, there's nothing comparable to that quality of competition at the top for these Chicago Bulls. So it seems a little awkward to talk about the Bulls as one of the best teams of all time."[/I][/INDENT]

[IMG]https://s6.gifyu.com/images/separator-light1378072ed9159071.gif[/IMG]

1983 Sixers - 3 hall of famers - Malone, Irving, Cheeks
1984 Celtics - 4 hall of famers - Bird, Parrish, McHale, Johnson
1985 Lakers - 5 hall of famers - Magic, Kareem, Worthy, McAdoo, Wilkes
1989 Pistons - 4 hall of famers - Thomas, Dumars, Rodman, Dantley

1996 Sonics - 1 hall of famer - Payton
1993 Knicks - 1 hall of famer - Ewing
1992 Blazers - 1 hall of famer - Drexler
1993 Suns - 1 hall of famer - Barkley
1996 Magic - 1 hall of famer - Shaq

2007 Spurs - 3 hall of famers - Duncan, Parker, Ginobili
2010 Celtics - 3 hall of famers - Garnett, Allen, Pierce
2014 Spurs - 4 hall of famers - Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Leonard
2016 Warriors - 4 hall of famers - Curry, Thompson, Green, Igoudala
2017 Warriors - 5 hall of famers - Curry, Thompson, Green, Igoudala, Durant[/QUOTE]

Wrap it up

A 30 team league today mops the floor with a 30 team league in the 90s, because of the development of international players.
The worst teams in the league today are so much better than the worst teams in the 90s, it's not even funny.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14170080]The HOF argument is silly. [B]What matters is how well those players played at the time they were playing[/B]. A lot of the guys MJ faced on those teams were on elite teams with a ton of talent, but had unfortunate circumstances which resulted in their careers being shortened. If not for that, they would likely all be in the HOF. Yet MJ gets persecuted as if that's his fault.

Guys like Reggie Lewis and Drazen Petrovic died. As unfortunate as those deaths were, both of those guys were shaping up to be elite players capable of doing great things. And that Nets team together with Coleman and Anderson would have been a threat for years to come.

Daughtery, Cummings, Rice, KJ, Penny, Kemp, LJ, and Harper all had shortened careers due to injuries, cocaine, or whatever. To pit the blame on MJ as if he controlled where they ended up is unfair.

Not to mention, the discussion isn't apples to apples. Over a 15 year span, LeBron played in 45 playoff series to MJ's 37. Law of probabilities tells us that it's more likely that LeBron would have faced more HOF'ers anyway, especially in an era of colluding.

But even if we concede to this point, it doesn't override all of the other arguments in favor of MJ.[/QUOTE]
Totally agree...

Like how people always say [I]"look what dude avg. last year, he's a superstar!!!!"[/I]

I don't give a shit what dude avg. last year for another team, I only care about what he averages this season, on said team. Base a player on how he's performing currently, not what he did last year. Last years stats can't help me win this year.

[quote]Let's take a look at year by year for their entire tenure together (minus rookie Pippen), with other top 10 vote getters of the same team, including the 90s.

1989

Malone - 3rd

Stockton - 7th

K. Johnson - 8th

Chambers - 9th

1990

Malone - 4th

Stockton - 9th

1991

Drexler - 4th

Porter - 9th

1992

Mullin - 6th

Hardaway - 8th

1993

Price - 8th

Daughtery - 10th

1995

Malone - 3rd

Stockton - 8th

Shaq - 2nd

Penny - 10th

1996

Kemp - 6th

Payton - 8th

Penny - 3rd

Shaq- 9th

1997

Rice - 5th

Mason - 9th

1998

Duncan - 5th

Robinson - 7th

Payton - 3rd

Baker – 8th [/quote]


Results don’t lie. The 90s were stacked. Paired up with one of the best PFs, if not the best, and Stockton was STILL an MVP candidate :applause: Same thing with Penny and Shaq. While they were also in contention for the award, Shaq was already named a Top 50 player in his 5th year!

[quote] Not to mention, the discussion isn't apples to apples. Over a 15 year span, LeBron played in 45 playoff series to MJ's 37. Law of probabilities tells us that it's more likely that LeBron would have faced more HOF'ers anyway[/quote]

Not only that, but the eastern conference was a shit show in LeBron’s era. Both in talent and because LeBron cowardly teamed with the best talent :oldlol: Below are the list of HOFers LeBron has played with

Wade (5 Seasons)
Bosh (4 Seasons)
Irving (4 Seasons)
Love (4 Seasons)
Shaq (1 Season)
AD (1 Season
Howard (1 Season)

Even if you don’t want to list Love as a HOFer, LeBron has still played with FAR MORE of them than Jordan. :confusedshrug: The argument should ALWAYS be how good the player was at their best. If LeBron fans want to use the HOFer argument, though, read and weep :oldlol:

[QUOTE=MadDog;14170151]Results don’t lie. The 90s were stacked. Paired up with one of the best PFs, if not the best, and Stockton was STILL an MVP candidate :applause: Same thing with Penny and Shaq. While they were also in contention for the award, Shaq was already named a Top 50 player in his 5th year!



Not only that, but the eastern conference was a shit show in LeBron’s era. Both in talent and because LeBron cowardly teamed with the best talent :oldlol: Below are the list of HOFers LeBron has played with

Wade (5 Seasons)
Bosh (4 Seasons)
Irving (4 Seasons)
Love (4 Seasons)
Shaq (1 Season)
AD (1 Season
Howard (1 Season)

Even if you don’t want to list Love as a HOFer, LeBron has still played with FAR MORE of them than Jordan. :confusedshrug: The argument should ALWAYS be how good the player was at their best. If LeBron fans want to use the HOFer argument, though, read and weep :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

I don't believe the 90s were stacked. But this incessant attempt at devaluing the competition has to stop, to the point that now supposedly, there weren't numerous teams with multiple MVP candidates/level players in the 90s.

This is why I say most of these arguments work well when they do and not so well when they don't. It's just non-sensical to always hinge your entire argument on things that generally work some of the time but not others.