In today's NBA, I won't draft a shooting guard with questionable 3-point shooting

[QUOTE=Lebron23;14169334]Wade and kobe were actually good 3 points shooters. I think Kobe had the record for most 3 pointers in a game before curry or klay broke that record.[/QUOTE]

Wade was not a good 3 point shooter. Not bad, but not good. At his peak he was only taking 4 a game. He was so good in other areas that he didn't need the 3 point shot. If you say he was a good mid range shooter, then I'd agree.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14169486]This doesn't make sense. He rarely took threes--which means they tended to be higher quality looks--yet he would go from taking 1-2 threes a game to 13 with [I]no[/I] decrease in efficiency?



What you listed (which somehow applies to MJ but none of his teammates who would face the same defenses :oldlol: ) doesn't erase the level of volume we are talking about. Do you think MJ could take 50 threes a game without any loss of efficiency? There is a reason Harden is the only one taking 13 threes a game. Even Curry never took that many.

Jordan has to be the best at everything. He was a 27-28% three point shooter on 1-2 threes a game from the normal line yet that volume could go from 1-2 to 12-13 with zero loss in efficiency? If so, why didn't MJ get the memo? There were people taking a lot more threes than he was when he played, including on his own team (even with the shorter line, in 97' he was 6th on the team in 3PA frequency as a % of his shots, between Kukoc and Rodman--and in the playoffs Rodman took more threes than MJ on a percentage basis). Why didn't MJ take 7, 8, 9 threes a game if he could shoot that many with no loss of efficiency?[/QUOTE]

The 3's mj took weren't always good looks. Alot of the time he'd take them in last second shot situations. And he wouldn't take 13 3's. That be just dumb. He could go from 2-4 to 5-8. I dont see his efficiency changing at all if he upped his 3pa that much. If he took 50 that be different. And mj generally upped his 3pt attempts in the post season and it didn't effect his efficiency. In fact it went up. In the post season from the regular 3pt line mj's efficiency is as good as almost anyone.

And there were not alot of people taking way more threes than mj. The best scorers/3 pt shoters in the league rarely took even 5 a game. Whole teams were shooting like 8. Mj for his career average 1.7 threes a game. Bird averaged 1.9, Mullin averaged 2.2 and miller averaged 4.7. Nice way more.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14169493]Where did I--or the OP say that? :confusedshrug: In particular I said:
[/QUOTE]

Don't act so naive. Of course it's a jab at MJ. The Lebron crowd rehashes the same points over and over. Still don't know why you side with that BS.

[QUOTE=MadDog;14169488]OP and Roundball_Rock wouldn't draft Jordan/Wade because of their three point percentage. That's enough of Moe and Curly. Where's Larry? :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Its so stupid. Raja Rondo impact on the game in the post season is insane and that boy cant shoot for shit. The 3 ball is hella overrated.

[QUOTE=Overdrive;14169502]Don't act so naive. Of course it's a jab at MJ. The Lebron crowd rehashes the same points over and over.[/QUOTE]

Lebron23, though? Do you read his threads? He covers a wide range of topics, some completely random. You are acting like he is a MJ hater.

It is a stretch to say the OP is directed MJ. Let's suppose MJ played today and didn't learn, or didn't want to, become a proficient three point shooter. Who cares? It would only be relevant if you think MJ would become useless absent a three point shot. Why would anyone think that? We just saw what Butler did and Butler is a poor man's MJ.

I've said many times there is only one player I would draft over MJ: Kareem. You all are just insecure about MJ's place today, even after Butler's run.

La'Mello Ball would be close to the consensus #1 pick if he could shoot but he can't.

[QUOTE]And there were not alot of people taking way more threes than mj.[/QUOTE]

Look at his own team. You have to do it by percentage of shots because MJ took so many more shots than anyone else it is a distorted picture for him.

[U]Three Pointers as % of FGA on 97' Bulls[/U]

Kerr 51%
Harper 46%
Beuchler 34%
Pippen 31%
Kukoc 25%
MJ 16%
Rodman/Brown 7%

In the playoffs it was:

Kerr 55%
Harper 49%
Beuchler 39%
Pippen 37%
Rodman 20%
Jordan 14%

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14169509]Lebron23, though? Do you read his threads? He covers a wide range of topics, some completely random. You are acting like he is a MJ hater.

It is a stretch to say the OP is directed MJ. Let's suppose MJ played today and didn't learn, or didn't want to, become a proficient three point shooter. Who cares? It would only be relevant if you think MJ would become useless absent a three point shot. Why would anyone think that? We just saw what Butler did and Butler is a poor man's MJ.

I've said many times there is only one player I would draft over MJ: Kareem. You all are just insecure about MJ's place today, even after Butler's run.

La'Mello Ball would be close to the consensus #1 pick if he could shoot but he can't.



Look at his own team. You have to do it by percentage of shots because MJ took so many more shots than anyone else it is a distorted picture for him.

[U]Three Pointers as % of FGA on 97' Bulls[/U]

Kerr 51%
Harper 46%
Beuchler 34%
Pippen 31%
Kukoc 25%
MJ 16%
Rodman/Brown 7%

In the playoffs it was:

Kerr 55%
Harper 49%
Beuchler 39%
Pippen 37%
Rodman 20%
Jordan 14%[/QUOTE]

Ok but im not sure what the point of frequency is in this conversation. Your argument is that mj basically isnt a good three point shooter and that he wouldn't be as effective in this era. This is just false for a number of reasons. When it mattered mj was actually an ok 3 point shooter. From the regular 3pt line He shot it 36% for the post season and it was much higher than that for the finals at 41%. The 41% is not including the years with the shortened line too.

So your only argument is that you think one of the best volume shooters ever efficiency would plummet from shooting 3-5 more threes a game all while playing in the easiest scoring era ever. It makes no sense dude.

If he played today he likely would be a proficient three point shooter--since he showed an ability to excel at everything. He would have practiced it more, presumably. These are reasonable assumptions but no guarantee. Players like Wade, Butler have had success without shooting threes so it isn't a requirement. You just have to factor that in when you build a team, as the Bulls learned when they had Wade, Butler, and Rondo together briefly.

I'm saying if he shot 28% on 1-2 threes a game and his volume increased to Harden's (13 a game), and 80's/90's MJ is time traveling to now, his efficiency would go down. Yes. If he could maintain that efficiency at that extreme volume, he would have taken more threes when he actually played. There is value in the 3 point threat, his teammate made effective use of the transition pull up 3 in the latter half of the 90's, for example.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14169532]If he played today he likely would be a proficient three point shooter--since he showed an ability to excel at everything. He would have practiced it more, presumably. These are reasonable assumptions but no guarantee. Players like Wade, Butler have had success without shooting threes so it isn't a requirement. You just have to factor that in when you build a team, as the Bulls learned when they had Wade, Butler, and Rondo together briefly.

I'm saying if he shot 28% on 1-2 threes a game and his volume increased to Harden's (13 a game), and 80's/90's MJ is time traveling to now, his efficiency would go down. Yes. If he could maintain that efficiency at that extreme volume, he would have taken more threes when he actually played. There is value in the 3 point threat, his teammate made effective use of the transition pull up 3 in the latter half of the 90's, for example.[/QUOTE]

But you keep using this 28%. I just gave you more accurate numbers. Regular season is irrelevant in this argument. We're talking winning and dominance so the post season is the more accurate measurement. And you guys love bringing up the shortened line so i took that equation out of it. So from the regular line in the post season mj shot 1-3 threes at 36% and in the finals its 41%. I in no way see one of the best volume shooters ever efficiency drastically dropping from shooting 2-3 threes to 4-8. It would maybe drop a little to 33 or 34 but even then thats a stretch because as you say you have factor in the easier era and him practicing it more. Still the worst case scenario i see is 33%-35% and thats not bad last time i checked. Thats as good or better than bron, luka and a few other stars who are looked at as decent 3 point shooters and thsta all im saying. He wouldn't be anywhere close to one of the best but like bron and luka he'd certainly be good enough.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14169473]How insecure are MJ stans? The OP didn't mention MJ. :lol He made an obvious point: if you have a SG who can't space the floor that creates problems for teams in today's NBA. Wade rarely took threes but Wade is an extreme example. He is a top 25 all-time player--just because he could do it doesn't mean any SG could. There is no Wade in this year's draft.[/QUOTE]

About as insecure as the fake Bulls fans on this forum.

[QUOTE]If MJ played today he likely would learn to shoot threes decently enough to maintain a good percentage on high volume but we don't know for sure. He could be Wade, Butler, DeRozan and just not take threes.[/QUOTE]

DeRozan's highest % was 33.8% on [I]lower[/I] volume than any of MJ's highest performing years. Wade's highest ironically was this year (33%). And guess which year had his highest 3 point attempts? :lol

The only one comparable is Butler, but he isn't the shooter MJ was, especially from mid-range. That alone should tell you that MJ has an advantage if evolving in this era.


[QUOTE]Harden shoots 36% while taking 13 threes a game. :oldlol: He would shoot a lot higher percentage if he didn't have that extreme volume. Shooting 36% on 13 attempts isn't the same as doing it on 4 attempts.[/QUOTE]

Now now now Roundy. Let's not be deceiving again!

Harden 2010-11: 34.9%/4.0 attempts
Harden 2012-13: 36.8%/6.2 attempts
Harden 2013-14: 36.2%/6.6 attempts
Harden 2015-16: 35.9%/8.0 attempts
Harden 2016-17: 34.7%/9.3 attempts

Roundy here wants us to believe that Harden has been shooting 13 threes a game for his entire career with a [I]much higher[/I] percentage when he shoots much less. The fact is that we have a wide array of percentages on various volume levels much lower than 13 that paint a [I]very[/I] different picture.

[QUOTE]You guys are willfully ignoring volume. Ask 90's MJ to time travel to today and take 13 threes like Harden, 9 like Luka, or even 6 like LeBron and his efficiency would plummet.[/QUOTE]

Nobody is willfully ignoring anything. It's not unreasonable to think MJ would shoot 36% on 3-5 attempts. I love how Roundy consistently does a plug and play....lol @ "Time Travel!".

Create the parameters/context but then get angry when others create their own as well.

You can't just do "time travel" and not give former players the modern context in which players play. It doesn't work that way. Far too often people do this and it's completely nonsensical.

Let me guess, the 80s players like Bird would wear Converse sneakers as opposed to the sneakers they wear today? After all, we're doing time travel. Will MJ not get the relaxed perimeter rules, too? :lol

[QUOTE]Jordan's highest volume years from the regular NBA line were: 3.0, 2.9, and 1.5. Even with the shorter line he never took more than 3.6 attempts.[/QUOTE]

So players don't evolve, but they magically did and still do? Everyone gets the benefit of the doubt [I]except[/I] MJ? LeBron started his career shooting 33% over his first 8 seasons and since then shoots 36%, but it's impossible for MJ to evolve the same way?

Today teams average [B]34[/B] threes a game. As an example, in 1991, teams averaged [B]7[/B] per game. There's no context to anything you're saying right now.

#TheHateIsReal

[QUOTE=Overdrive;14169502]Don't act so naive. Of course it's a jab at MJ. The Lebron crowd rehashes the same points over and over. Still don't know why you side with that BS.[/QUOTE]

Precisely. TheFakeBullsFan aka Roundy wants to act like he's genuine in any of his analyses. He's not. He's just bitter.

[QUOTE]He wouldn't be anywhere close to one of the best but like bron and luka he'd certainly be good enough.[/QUOTE]

Probably, if he wanted to take threes. Why do you think he took so few threes when he actually played?

Drexler, Pippen, Payton all became 5-6 3PA guys later in their careers. Jordan didn't.

I can give you a ton of really good SG from this era that aren't very good at shooting 3's. Wade, Butler, Derozan...

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14169550]Probably, if he wanted to take threes. Why do you think he took so few threes when he actually played?

Drexler, Pippen, Payton all became 5-6 3PA guys later in their careers. Jordan didn't.[/QUOTE]

Well afain teams were only shooting 6-8 for most of mj's career. It was just a different era. As far as mj compared to those guys i dont know. Im pretty sure their 3pt attempts all went up during the shortened line period from 94-97. With the exception of gp they were all towards the decline of there career and had no choice to settle for a few more threes. Mj didnt have to. He transitioned his game later in his career to play in the post more. Pip and Drexler offense were alot more limited than mj.

[QUOTE=dankok8;14169553]I can give you a ton of really good SG from this era that aren't very good at shooting 3's. Wade, Butler, Derozan...[/QUOTE]

Exactly. That's why the MJ hysteria makes no sense. If those guys succeeded, surely MJ would.

I interpreted the OP to be talking about this year's draft and future drafts. You take Wade or Butler #1 this year (if you knew what they would ultimately become) and build around them to mitigate their weaknesses. That doesn't mean you take JJ Redick of Butler because Reddick shoots.

Those players are exceptions, though. Wade is top 25 all-time and Butler, DeRozan are multiple time all-NBA players. How many players of that level are in a draft? Wade's level? Top 25 all-time so once every 3 years or so on average. Multiple time all-NBA? What, 2-3 guys in a typical draft? If you are a regular starter or bench player and are a SG who can't shoot in today's NBA you are in trouble and need some other big strengths to offset it.

[QUOTE]Well afain teams were only shooting 6-8 for most of mj's career. It was just a different era. As far as mj compared to those guys i dont know. Im pretty sure their 3pt attempts all went up during the shortened line period from 94-97. With the exception of gp they were all towards the decline of there career and had no choice to settle for a few more threes. Mj didnt have to. He transitioned his game later in his career to play in the post more. Pip and Drexler offense were alot more limited than mj.[/QUOTE]

Pippen did it so he could be a threat from anywhere on the court at any time, which is one reason he did it a lot in transition to throw off defenders. He was in his peak when he started shooting threes. Drexler was in decline, Payton was in his prime.

Jordan was already so lethal he didn't "need" it but neither did Kobe, right?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14169558]Exactly. That's why the MJ hysteria makes no sense. If those guys succeeded, surely MJ would.

I interpreted the OP to be talking about this year's draft and future drafts. You take Wade or Butler #1 this year (if you knew what they would ultimately become) and build around them to mitigate their weaknesses. That doesn't mean you take JJ Redick of Butler because Reddick shoots.

Those players are exceptions, though. Wade is top 25 all-time and Butler, DeRozan are multiple time all-NBA players. How many players of that level are in a draft? Wade's level? Top 25 all-time so once every 3 years or so on average. Multiple time all-NBA? What, 2-3 guys in a typical draft? If you are a regular starter or bench player and are a SG who can't shoot in today's NBA you are in trouble and need some other big strengths to offset it.



Pippen did it so he could be a threat from anywhere on the court at any time, which is one reason he did it a lot in transition to throw off defenders. He was in his peak when he started shooting threes. Drexler was in decline, Payton was in his prime.

Jordan was already so lethal he didn't "need" it but neither did Kobe, right?[/QUOTE]

Kobe didnt need it as much but he also came up after mj and in a time where the 3 ball was significantly increasing. When he came in in 97 threes have already double since mj's days. 10 years into his career 3's were being shot 3 times more than mj's days. Its only natural kobe would shoot more also. Plus its not like he shot that many anyway. He only averaged 4 a game for his career.