Wilt. Lack of footage, narratives gone wild, and constantly going up against one of the greatest dynasties of all time have really tarnished his reputation. In a vacuum he is the greatest or second greatest player of all time.
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Wilt. Lack of footage, narratives gone wild, and constantly going up against one of the greatest dynasties of all time have really tarnished his reputation. In a vacuum he is the greatest or second greatest player of all time.
[B]Official Vote Tally[/B]
Wilt Chamberlain - 4: coastalmarker99, Thenameless, L. Kizzle, warriorfan
Bill Russell - 4: Dbrog, dankok8, Reggie43, jlipp
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 4: ChickStern, ClipperRevival, jstern, Overdrive
Lebron James - 7: 8ball, SouBeachTalents, Bankaii, SaintzFury13, RRR3, Honor Boost, Magic is Magic
Great centers of the 80s and before had to play with some finesse. Basketball skill. Wilt could have hammer fisted his way to the rim and thrown down 2 handed donkey Kong slams but he was taught to play basketball. Yea you knock guys out the way jostling for position but it isn't your sole means of dominance. There's some skill involved. Wilt just didn't have the teams to beat all time dynasties although he came close.
[QUOTE=tpols;14426954]Great centers of the 80s and before had to play with some finesse. Basketball skill. Wilt could have hammer fisted his way to the rim and thrown down 2 handed donkey Kong slams but he was taught to play basketball. Yea you knock guys out the way jostling for position but it isn't your sole means of dominance. There's some skill involved. Wilt just didn't have the teams to beat all time dynasities although he came close.[/QUOTE]
Wilt was a total of 10 ****ing points away from having 6 to 7 rings despite playing on below-average teams for most of his career.
Look at this stat.
Here are stats on how bad the Warriors offence was when they didn’t involve Wilt.
Small sample size….. but so far
46 possessions without wilt.. 37 FGA, 13 FGM, 7 turnovers (1 OREB by Thurmond with score)
38 possessions with wilt, 35 FGA, 21 FGM, (1 OREB by wilt with score)
Very small sample size, so the more I get to add the more accurate it will be.
Plays like this where Guy Rodgers ignores Wilt down low with a 1 on 1 matchup really highlights the poor decision making and lack of offensive structure that Wilt had to deal with for most of his prime.
[url]https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status/1381266332579110913[/url]
Here Wilt gets a great post position on Russell but it quickly goes to waste as Wayne Hightower launches a contested outside shot:
[url]https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status/1381266266359353347[/url]
[QUOTE=tpols;14426954]Great centers of the 80s and before had to play with some finesse. Basketball skill. Wilt could have hammer fisted his way to the rim and thrown down 2 handed donkey Kong slams but he was taught to play basketball. Yea you knock guys out the way jostling for position but it isn't your sole means of dominance. There's some skill involved. Wilt just didn't have the teams to beat all time dynasties although he came close.[/QUOTE]
Here are examples of Wilt getting let down by his teammates in the playoffs.
Game 1, 1960 ECF vs Boston
Wilt scores 42 points and grabs 29 rebounds and disses out 1 assist on 17-35 FG/FGA.
While Russell had 19 points and 30 rebounds plus 1 assist on 9-17 shooting
The difference was for this game
Was that Woody Sauldsberry went 3-21 and Wilt's teammates shoot 30% from the field in a 6 point loss in a series they lost in 6 games.
Game 1, 1961 ECSF vs Syracuse
Wilts teammates shoot 28.8% from the field after Wilt drops 46 and 32
Wilts teammates shot 33.2% from the field this series (8.3% below league average) and they were swept
Game 1, 1962 ECF vs Boston
Wilt scores 33 points and grabs 31 rebounds and disses out 3 assists on 13-25 FG/FGA.
While Russell had 16 points and 30 rebounds plus 4 assists on 7-22 shooting
Yet the difference in this game was that Wilts teammates shoot 23.5% from the field.
Game 4, 1964 Finals vs Boston
Wilt scores 27 points and grabs 38 rebounds on 52 percent shooting.
While Russell had 8 points and 19 rebounds plus 3 assists on 33 percent shooting.
Yet the difference in this game was that Wilt's teammates shoot 27.7% from the field in a 3 point loss.
Game 1 1965 ECF
Wilt scores 33 points and blocked 11 shots while grabbing 31 rebounds on 13-25 FG/FGA or 63 TS%
While Russell had 16 points and 32 rebounds on 7-22 shooting.
Yet the difference in this game was that Wilt's teammates shoot 23.5% from the field in a 10 point loss.
Game 5 1966 ECF.
Wilt scores 46 points and grabbed 34 rebounds along with 8 blocks on 19-34 FG/FGA
While Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds plus 6 assists on 4-7 FG/FGA
Yet the difference in this game was that Wilt's teammates shoot 30.8% from the field in a 6 point loss in a series they lost in 5 games.
[QUOTE=coastalmarker99;14426955]Wilt was a total of 10 ****ing points away from having 6 to 7 rings despite playing on below-average teams for most of his career.
Look at this stat.
Here are stats on how bad the Warriors offence was when they didn’t involve Wilt.
Small sample size….. but so far
46 possessions without wilt.. 37 FGA, 13 FGM, 7 turnovers (1 OREB by Thurmond with score)
38 possessions with wilt, 35 FGA, 21 FGM, (1 OREB by wilt with score)
Very small sample size, so the more I get to add the more accurate it will be.
Plays like this where Guy Rodgers ignores Wilt down low with a 1 on 1 matchup really highlights the poor decision making and lack of offensive structure that Wilt had to deal with for most of his prime.
[url]https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status...66332579110913[/url]
Here Wilt gets a great post position on Russell but it quickly goes to waste as Wayne Hightower launches a contested outside shot:
[url]https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status...66377193844739[/url][/QUOTE]
Hi coastal m,
Good post but I wanted to point out that the two Twitter links did not work for me. I wanted to see them too. Oh well.
[QUOTE=Magic Is Magic;14426957]Hi coastal m,
Good post but I wanted to point out that the two Twitter links did not work for me. I wanted to see them too. Oh well.[/QUOTE]
HI Magic is Magic
Here you go it should work now.
[url]https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status/1381266332579110913[/url]
[url]https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status/1381266266359353347[/url]
[QUOTE=coastalmarker99;14426960]HI Magic is Magic
Here you go it should work now.
[url]https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status/1381266332579110913[/url]
[url]https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status/1381266266359353347[/url][/QUOTE]
Wilt's length really is incredibly a thing to marvel and yes he should have given that ball right back to Wilt.
Here are 40 games that Wilt played in the postseason that he had a triple-double in
3/18/62... 28 pts, 26 rebs, 12 blks
3/22/62... 56 pts, 35 rebs, 12 blks Game 5 of 5 game series
4/5/62... 22 pts, 22 rebs, 14 blks Game 7
3/4/64... 28 pts, 27 rebs, 15 blks
4/16/64... 39 pts, 30 rebs, 12 blks. Game 7
3/26/65... 30 pts, 15 rebs, 10 asts
3/31/65... 38 pts, 26 rebs, 10 blks Clincher
4/4/65.... 33 pts, 31 rebs, 11 blks
4/13/65... 30 pts, 26 rebs, 13 blks
4/15/65... 30 pts, 32 rebs, 12 blks Game 7
3/22/67... 37 pts, 27 rebs, 11 asts
3/24/67... 16 pts, 30 rebs, 19 asts
3/31/67... 24 pts, 32 rebs, 13 asts, 12 blks (quad-double)
4/2/67... 15 pts, 29 rebs, 10 blks
4/9/67.... 20 pts, 22 rebs, 10 asts
4/11/67...29 pts, 36 rebs, 13 asts Clincher
4/14/67... 16 pts, 33 rebs, 10 asts
4/16/67... 10 pts, 38 rebs, 10 asts, 10 blks (quad-double)
3/22/68... 37 pts 29 rebs 7 asts 10 blks
3/23/68 24 pts 17 rebs 8 asts 12 blks
3/27/68 18 pts 24 rebs 8 asts 11 blks
3/31/68 26 pts 21 rebs 7 asts 14 blks
4/1/68 25 pts 27 rebs 3 asts 10 blks
4/19/68 14 pts 34 rebs 5 asts 12 blks Game 7
4/5/69... 11 pts, 25 rebs, 15 blks
4/13/69... 23 pts, 29 rebs, 10 blks
4/17/69... 25 pts, 19 rebs, 13 blks
4/19/70... 11 pts, 21 rebs, 10 blks
4/20/69... 16 pts, 29 rebs, 16 blks 4/23/69... 15 pts, 23 rebs, 14 blks
5/5/69... 18 pts, 27 rebs, 10 blks Game 7
4/5/70.... 36 pts, 14 rebs, 10 blks
4/7/70.... 12 pts, 26 rebs, 11 asts, 11 blks (quad-double)
4/9/70.... 30 pts, 27 rebs, 12 blks Game 7
4/19/70... 11 pts, 21 rebs, 10 blks Clincher
3/26/71... 26 pts, 20 rebs, 10 blks
3/30/71... 12 pts, 23 rebs, 10 blks
4/18/72... 12 pts, 26 rebs, 11 blks
4/22/72... 20 pts, 24 rebs, 10 blks Clincher (and against KAJ)
5/7/72.... 24 pts, 29 rebs, 10 blks * (CavsFTW with 8) Clincher
4/8/73... 11 pts, 30 rebs, 12 blks
Wilt had eight
20-20 post-seasons?
Wilt had six
25-20 post-seasons
Wilt had four
30-20 post-seasons
Wilt had three
30-25 post-seasons
Wilt had one
35-25 post-season
Narrowing it down even further:
Wilt had six
28-20 post-seasons
Wilt had five
28-25 post-seasons
Wilt had one
28-30 post-season
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14426940]Wilt. Lack of footage, narratives gone wild, and constantly going up against one of the greatest dynasties of all time have really tarnished his reputation. In a vacuum he is the greatest or second greatest player of all time.[/QUOTE]
What to know something interesting.
1-7 Wilt's PO-series record vs. Celtics.
1-22 every other team's PO record vs. Celtics from 1957 to 1969.
and that one single win came when Russell was injured in the 1958 finals.
So that could be 23 and 0 against every other team besides Wilt's 1967 76ers for the Celtics.
Wilt finished his career with an 80 percent winning percentage against non-Celtic teams in the playoffs.
Wilt unfortunately just didn't have any luck in the playoffs.
Injuries and lucky last-second plays by the Celtics or Knicks repeatedly foiled Wilt's chances at titles.
Had Wilt just had better luck in his career
Wilt could have seriously won 5 to 8 championships,
1962 - Gola who is arguably the Warriors 2nd best player is injured against Boston and they lose in Game 7 by 2 points of a Sam Jones game-winner.
1965 - Costello is injured against Boston and they lose in Game 7 by 1 point due to Havlicek stealing the ball.
1968 - Cunningham out and basically the entire 76ers team including Wilt all played through injuries otherwise they would have easily steamrolled their way to back to back titles.
1969 - West played with a hamstring and calf injury which limited his ability to defend how he normally does. Wilt gets injured late and they lose in Game 7 by 2 points
1970 - Happy Hairston who was arguably the 3rd most important player after Wilt/West missed the playoffs and they lose in Game 7.
1973 - Hairston out once again, West is playing with another hamstring injury and West also mentions in his autobiography that McMillan was playing through an injury as well.
That 1973 Lakers team was clearly beaten up pretty bad and they lost a lot of close Finals games.
Wilt is most likely the unluckiest player in the top ten of all time.
As if you redo his career over then he most likely wins 4 to 5 rings instead of the 2 rings that he ended up with.
As Mendy Rudolph, phantom fouls, incredibly lucky bounces...things went Boston's way during that era that were unbelievable.
The most confusing thing about LeBron to me is that his teams have never truly had an all-time dominant playoff run en route to a title.
Despite the fact that he has four titles.
Lebron in 2012 faced Elimination against an old Celtics team that had him on the ropes.
Lebron in 2013 went seven games vs the Pacers in the ECF and was a Ray Allen miracle shot from losing to the Spurs in six games in the finals.
Lebron in 2016 went seven games vs the Warriors and was a Green suspension away from losing in 5 games.
Lebron in 2020 went six games with an injured Miami team.
That featured a guy as their superstar in Jimmy who got utterly shut down in the playoffs this year and was outplayed by ****ing Bryn Forbes
We know that Lebron has played on Super teams since 2010 outside of 2018 and 2019.
And one could make the case that if you change only two plays in Lebron's career that he would have a 2 and 8 record in the NBA finals.
While Wilt is the unluckiest player in the top ten of all time.
I have to say that Lebron is one of the luckiest players in the top ten of all time.
[QUOTE=coastalmarker99;14426974]I have to say that Lebron is one of the luckiest players in the top ten of all time.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely ridiculous, and not even close to being true. Spent the first 7 years of his career on a horribly run franchise, lost both Love AND Kyrie in the 2015 Finals, lost 2 potential titles when Durant signed with Golden State, then had AD get injured mid series this year.
He lost 3 Finals averaging 36/13/9, 34/12/10 & 34/9/10, then another series averaging 39/8/8. Sorry, "one of the luckiest players" don't have so many historically great series & playoff runs end without titles.
The luckiest players in the top 10 imo are Russell, Jordan & Kobe (if you have him there). Magic for sure would be included if not for the circumstances that ended his career.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14426982]Absolutely ridiculous, and not even close to being true. Spent the first 7 years of his career on a horribly run franchise, lost both Love AND Kyrie in the 2015 Finals, lost 2 potential titles when Durant signed with Golden State, then had AD get injured mid series this year.
He lost 3 Finals averaging 36/13/9, 34/12/10 & 34/9/10, then another series averaging 39/8/8. Sorry, "one of the luckiest players" don't have so many historically great series & playoff runs end without titles.
The luckiest players in the top 10 imo are Russell, Jordan & Kobe (if you have him there). Magic for sure would be included if not for the circumstances that ended his career.[/QUOTE]
That's true my bad I take that back.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14426982]Absolutely ridiculous, and not even close to being true. Spent the first 7 years of his career on a horribly run franchise, lost both Love AND Kyrie in the 2015 Finals, lost 2 potential titles when Durant signed with Golden State, then had AD get injured mid series this year.
He lost 3 Finals averaging 36/13/9, 34/12/10 & 34/9/10, then another series averaging 39/8/8. Sorry, "one of the luckiest players" don't have so many historically great series & playoff runs end without titles.
The luckiest players in the top 10 imo are Russell, Jordan & Kobe (if you have him there). Magic for sure would be included if not for the circumstances that ended his career.[/QUOTE]
Well if you are going to say he was unlucky with having teammate injuries…he’s gonna have inflated counting stats. You didn’t mention fg% either. So he is gonna have a tougher time winning but he’s gonna put up better stats when he’s team is injured. You are trying to play it both ways a little there. 2016 he was shut down before all of golden state’s best defenders got taken out of the series. 2017 and beyond he literally stopped playing defense all together and was stat padding quite a bit. They are great numbers but we still need to apply context to them.
Gotta say, I'm surprised at all the love Wilt has gotten so far. I vote LeBron.