did mike always have maximum defense attention becos he cant pass?

[QUOTE=Bacchus;14633037]Michael Jordan Averaged A Triple Double When He Played As A Point Guard: 33.6 PPG, 11.4 APG, 10.8 rebounds per game[/QUOTE]

lol tard has no clue how shamelessly jordone was stat padding to chase trip dubs and prove he wasn't a one dimensional chucker.

[QUOTE=And1AllDay;14633146]:oldlol: raped his azz :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Nope. Youre the same person.

This is the equivalent of you jack!ng 0ff then bragging about it to strangers :lol

MJ averaged more assists than Lebron for the first 9 years of their playoff careers (85-93' vs 06-14') before the Warriors' pace and space era made offense easy and increased everyone's stats.

Furthermore, Jordan averaged more assists with low turnovers and without dominating the ball, so he had the teammate fits, development and chemistry needed to win organically

Btw OP.... the reason that Jordan could defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals) is because he had the necessary elite jumpshooting skill - this defeats maximum defensive attention...

But more importantly, ball-dominators like Luka/Lebron can't carry the scoring load with sufficient brand to beat Finals teams, so they need all-time scorers and elite 1st options at sidekick to nearly match their scoring in the Finals.. Otoh, off-ball experts like Curry/MJ can carry the scoring load with sufficient brand to beat Finals teams, so they can win with secondary scorers at sidekick like Wiggins or Pippen that require carrying the scoring load, aka defeat maximum defensive attention.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14633220]MJ averaged more assists than Lebron for the first 9 years of their playoff careers (85-93' vs 06-14') before the Warriors' pace and space era made offense easy and increased everyone's stats.

Furthermore, Jordan averaged more assists with low turnovers and without dominating the ball, so he had the teammate fits, development and chemistry needed to win organically

Btw OP.... the reason that Jordan could defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals) is because he had the necessary elite jumpshooting skill - this defeats maximum defensive attention...

But more importantly, ball-dominators like Luka/Lebron can't carry the scoring load with sufficient brand to beat Finals teams, so they need all-time scorers and elite 1st options at sidekick to nearly match their scoring in the Finals.. Otoh, off-ball experts like Curry/MJ can carry the scoring load with sufficient brand to beat Finals teams, so they can win with secondary scorers at sidekick like Wiggins or Pippen that require carrying the scoring load, aka defeat maximum defensive attention.[/QUOTE]

Averaging more assists doesn't necessarily make you better. While MJ's passing is underrated (as showcased with the OP), he was more of a shot creator than an actual playmaker. His ability to pass was there, yes, but he wasn't on the level of a Magic, Bird, or even LeBron.

I think part of that comes from his mentality. LeBron is a pass first kind of player, so he draws up plays with that specific intent. MJ is score first, and likewise, his mentality followed suit.

You're consistently conflating shot creation, passing, and playmaking. LeBron excels more in playmaking and passing, where as MJ was more of a shot creator who was an excellent passer but [I]not[/I] an excellent playmaker.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14633238]Averaging more assists doesn't necessarily make you better. While MJ's passing is underrated (as showcased with the OP), he was more of a shot creator than an actual playmaker. His ability to pass was there, yes, but he wasn't on the level of a Magic, Bird, or even LeBron.

I think part of that comes from his mentality. LeBron is a pass first kind of player, so he draws up plays with that specific intent. MJ is score first, and likewise, his mentality followed suit.

You're consistently conflating shot creation, passing, and playmaking. LeBron excels more in playmaking and passing, where as MJ was more of a shot creator who was an excellent passer but [I]not[/I] an excellent playmaker.[/QUOTE]


You just haven't watched Jordan much or don't observe well.. A beginner eye for the game would explain why Lebron's beginner skills (high screen roll ball-dominance) is all you can notice.

You think Jordan only passed when doubled and wasn't good at setting guys up or breaking down a defense - so you just haven't noticed or purposefully ignored.. Simple as that.

Double-teams aren't nearly enough to get Jordan ahead of Lebron in assists for 9 years.. That's weak and desperate reasoning on your part... The reality is that Jordan averaged more assists than Lebron for 9 years while winning more because he could do whatever he wanted with the ball - he was Michael Jordan.. No one in history broke down defenses easier, more efficiently/quicker, or more OFTEN than Jordan.. His goat maneuverability among defenders and shot-making elevated a goat passing ability that you apparently missed.. .. He made every type of pass or passing play that Lebron made and more.. He could dominate the ball with the best of em', but he's also the only guy in history that averaged 10+ assists in a series without starting at point guard or bringing the ball up (91' Finals).

And the proof is shown in the historical record - the Associated Press called Jordan the best PG in the league after 10 games at point guard in 1989 - his averages during the 24-game stint at point guard were 30/9/11, which included a stretch of 9 triple-doubles in 10 games.. This was 30 years before the "30/10/10" era where Luka and Westbrook make these numbers standard practice..

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14633238]Averaging more assists doesn't necessarily make you better. While MJ's passing is underrated (as showcased with the OP), he was more of a shot creator than an actual playmaker. His ability to pass was there, yes, but he wasn't on the level of a Magic, Bird, or even LeBron.

I think part of that comes from his mentality. LeBron is a pass first kind of player, so he draws up plays with that specific intent. MJ is score first, and likewise, his mentality followed suit.

You're consistently conflating shot creation, passing, and playmaking. LeBron excels more in playmaking and passing, where as MJ was more of a shot creator who was an excellent passer but [I]not[/I] an excellent playmaker.[/QUOTE]

Exactly this.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14633242]You just haven't watched Jordan much or don't observe well.. A beginner eye for the game would explain why Lebron's beginner skills (high screen roll ball-dominance) is all you can notice.[/QUOTE]

I watched MJ for almost all of his career, so yes, I've watched MJ a lot.

[QUOTE]You think Jordan only passed when doubled and wasn't good at setting guys up or breaking down a defense - so you just haven't noticed or purposefully ignored.. Simple as that.[/QUOTE]

I never said he only passed when doubled.

[QUOTE]Double-teams aren't nearly enough to get Jordan ahead of Lebron in assists for 9 years.. That's weak and desperate reasoning on your part... The reality is that Jordan averaged more assists than Lebron for 9 years while winning more because he could do whatever he wanted with the ball - he was Michael Jordan.. No one in history broke down defenses easier, more efficiently/quicker, or more OFTEN than Jordan.. His goat maneuverability among defenders and shot-making elevated a goat passing ability that you apparently missed.. .. He made every type of pass or passing play that Lebron made and more.. He could dominate the ball with the best of em', but he's also the only guy in history that averaged 10+ assists in a series without starting at point guard or bringing the ball up (91' Finals).[/QUOTE]

You basically said what I said...."and shot making elevated a goat passing ability"....i.e., shot creation and passing. You're just being a stubborn Jordan stan who thinks I'm criticizing your idol. I'm not.

[QUOTE]And the proof is shown in the historical record - the Associated Press called Jordan the best PG in the league after 10 games at point guard in 1989 - his averages during the 24-game stint at point guard were 30/9/11, which included a stretch of 9 triple-doubles in 10 games.. This was 30 years before the "30/10/10" era where Luka and Westbrook make these numbers standard practice..[/QUOTE]

Good, and what was Chicago's production as a result?

CHI in '89 w/MJ as SG: 109.4 ORTG (12th in the league), 106.1 PPG, 50.2% FG%

CHI in '89 w/MJ as PG: 107.9 ORTG (18th in the league), 100.1 PPG, 46.5% FG%

This is the key. It doesn't matter if MJ was a great passer because playmaking is what matters in this discussion. The fact remains is that in those games, Chicago performed worse with MJ at PG.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14633250]I watched MJ for almost all of his career, so yes, I've watched MJ a lot.



I never said he only passed when doubled.



You basically said what I said...."and shot making elevated a goat passing ability"....i.e., shot creation and passing. You're just being a stubborn Jordan stan who thinks I'm criticizing your idol. I'm not.


[/Quote]



MJ made every kind of pass and play, including many passes and plays that Lebron can't make due to superior maneuverability amongst defenders... Literally goatt maneuverability and completely unmatched by anyone.

And the 89' Bulls won more than the 08' Cavs and was arguably the greatest carry-job in history and the most upsets in the playoffs.. The difference between the 85-90' Bulls casts and Lebron's 04-10' casts is enormous..

Heck, do you want to know why the 09' Cavs won more games then the 90' Bulls?.. It's because they had the #3 defense compared to #19 for the 90' Bulls, while Mo was superior to Pippen offensively across the board (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, scoring, efficiency).

So how do you explain Lebron having a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles?... Jordan won the next year in 91', while Lebron lost as the massive favorite for 2 more years

[QUOTE=And1AllDay;14632785]other stars like bran and magic use a ball dominator style becos they know how to pass and will punish a double team quickly. they have a better style that is more successful for team results and team play.

but if you are like mike and cant pass...why not double team him? he cant pass anyway so its maximum defense attentoin

was this was caused other chicago bull players to fall in the corners of the court waiting for a shot since mike didnt know how to pass? woudl ball dominator give him more then six finals in 20 years?[/QUOTE]

Damn 20 years? I agree , he should have passed the ball more in 94, 99, 00 and specially in 01

And heres a fun fact, jordan ball made him more acomplished than both magic and bran

Next!

[QUOTE=Spurs m8;14632787]And1allday/shooter about to spend another Saturday night at home on ish, starting threads about MJ

You will always be pathetic :roll:[/QUOTE]

Right? This jackass just furiously thinking "what thread can I make today to throw shade at the GOAT because need to tear him down so my boi LeBron can be on his level..." :roll: He's the very definition of the word loser..:lol

[QUOTE=TheMan;14633278]Right? This jackass just furiously thinking "what thread can I make today to throw shade at the GOAT because need to tear him down so my boi LeBron can be on his level..." :roll: He's the very definition of the word loser..:lol[/QUOTE]

:lebronamazed:

[QUOTE=Johnny32;14633181]lol tard has no clue how shamelessly jordone was stat padding to chase trip dubs and prove he wasn't a one dimensional chucker.[/QUOTE]

Was he also chasing stats when he averaged 8.4 assists with just 2.5 TOs for a title run?

MJ could pass, he was excellent passing out of double teams when the Knicks gave him maximum defensive attention in the POs. People say they shut him down in '93 ECF yet he had 42 assists to just 14 TOs in 6 games in that series on top of his volume scoring. Jordan's one of the better players in NBA history (might be the GOAT) when it comes to high usage and low TO rate and he was often asked to be a playmaker as the smart teams did not give him any space to operate, so they forced him into long 2s and some 3s but he still put up decent numbers. People say his Knicks series is the worst yet he put up 32/6/7/3/1 on 52%TS.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14633287]Was he also chasing stats when he averaged 8.4 assists with just 2.5 TOs for a title run?

MJ could pass, he was excellent passing out of double teams when the Knicks gave him maximum defensive attention in the POs. People say they shut him down in '93 ECF yet he had 42 assists to just 14 TOs in 6 games in that series on top of his volume scoring. Jordan's one of the better players in NBA history (might be the GOAT) when it comes to high usage and low TO rate and he was often asked to be a playmaker as the smart teams did not give him any space to operate, so they forced him into long 2s and some 3s but he still put up decent numbers. People say his Knicks series is the worst yet he put up 32/6/7/3/1 on 52%TS.[/QUOTE]

Read what i responded to, comprehend what i responded to, or stop wasting my time and go cry yourself to sleep thinking about your dead hero again.

[QUOTE=And1AllDay;14633146]:oldlol: raped his azz :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

I am always right on this forum.

Coaches that have won coach of the year: budenhozer popovich, dwyane casey, Thibodeau, Mike D'antoni, Scott brooks.

None of them double LeBron and ALL of them saying doubling LeBron is suicide after trying it for a few games.

Meanwhile dum retards on this forum will try to argue otherwise and fall flat on their faces.

[QUOTE=Full Court;14633119]The "most devastating passer of all time" wouldn't have the most turnovers of all time, genius. :lol

Nice try. Maybe if you were less concerned with cuddling Bronie's nuttsack you'd make an intelligent post for the first time.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Spurs m8;14633131]8ball is just straight up dishonest or stupid[/QUOTE]

Thread Cliffs:

Coaches that have won coach of the year: budenhozer popovich, dwyane casey, Thibodeau, Mike D'antoni, Scott brooks.

None of them double LeBron and ALL of them saying doubling LeBron is suicide after trying it for a few games.


8ball: 8
Team Dingus: 0