The greatest point guard of all time.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14767231]My only point is, traditional point guards (Magic, Stockton, Thomas, Nash, Kidd, CP3, etc) who bring the ball up and look for shot creation over shot making.... Steph does not fall under this category.

So if you want to consider Steph a PG in this positionless era or basketball (fine by me) than so is Lebron in which case he is not the best PG ever.

What's the title of this thread? Claiming he's the best PG ever. He's not. The end.[/QUOTE]

Curry brings the ball up and jntiates the offense. There's no other position you could say he is. How many shooting guards bring the ball up the most on their teams?

[QUOTE=Carbine;14767231]My only point is, traditional point guards (Magic, Stockton, Thomas, Nash, Kidd, CP3, etc) [B]who bring the ball up and [U]look for shot creation[/U][/B] over shot making.... Steph does not fall under this category.

So if you want to consider Steph a PG in this positionless era or basketball (fine by me) than so is Lebron in which case he is not the best PG ever.

What's the title of this thread? Claiming he's the best PG ever. He's not. The end.[/QUOTE]

He actually does, he's creating shots for others via his own off-ball movement instead of the 'traditional' way as you describe. Because he's inverted the methodology due to his own unique shooting gravity doesn't make it less so, it's just different and you seem hesitant to accept different. Have you seen Draymond without Steph? Dogshit. Lined up with Steph( and everyone else on the floor) and he gets looks he otherwise wouldn't because of the defense warping trying to stay on Steph's heels. And that's...not shot creation?

So no, not the end. The conversation goes on...

The funny thing is, Steph still averages 6-7 assists while making himself a defense-warping off-ball target. If someone wanted him to play 'traditional' so that some forum poster considers him a Point Guard, he could and he'd probably drop 8-10apg passing the ball from the top of the key to whoever gets open, but then you're planting him in front of the defense, and everyone can then better stick to the likes of Klay and Dray, making them less effective and the team easier to defend. All the while you're basically telling the greatest shooter the league has ever seen to not be the greatest shooter the league has ever seen, so he can play 'traditionally'. Why would any coach in his right mind do that??

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14767251]The funny thing is, Steph still averages 6-7 assists while making himself a defense-warping off-ball target. If someone wanted him to play 'traditional' so that some forum poster considers him a Point Guard, he could and he'd probably drop 8-10apg passing the ball from the top of the key to whoever gets open, but then you're planting him in front of the defense, and everyone can then better stick to the likes of Klay and Dray, making them less effective and the team easier to defend. All the while you're basically telling the greatest shooter the league has ever seen to not be the greatest shooter the league has ever seen, so he can play 'traditionally'. Why would any coach in his right mind do that??[/QUOTE]

That's what Mark Jackson wanted him to do and he averaged 9 dimes a game. Kerr came in and inverted so he only averaged 6 apg the next year and the offense exploded when curry utilized his off ball shooting ability. He still brings the ball up and initiates the offense but making himself into a WR empowers teammates and unlocks a GOAT brand.

Does this only apply to point guards, were LeBron & Bird traditional SF's, Dirk a traditional PF, Jokic & Embiid traditional centers etc.

Not top 5 sadly

Magic, Paul, Stockton, IT, West

Needing 7 games to beat the Kings doesn't move me. His game 4 choke still lingers

[QUOTE=tpols;14767252]That's what Mark Jackson wanted him to do and he averaged 9 dimes a game. Kerr came in and inverted so he only averaged 6 apg the next year and the offense exploded when curry utilized his off ball shooting ability. He still brings the ball up and initiates the offense but making himself into a WR empowers teammates and unlocks a GOAT brand.[/QUOTE]

Yeah true, it's been so long since that version of Steph that I forgot, the 'traditional' method was tried and Steph was an all-star that way. But he and the team went supernova when they went the 'WR' route as you call it.

[QUOTE=tpols;14767252]That's what Mark Jackson wanted him to do and he averaged 9 dimes a game. Kerr came in and inverted so he only averaged 6 apg the next year and the offense exploded when curry utilized his off ball shooting ability. He still brings the ball up and initiates the offense but making himself into a WR empowers teammates and unlocks a GOAT brand.[/QUOTE]
With the right teammates, i suppose. In 2021 he had 2nd pick james wiseman, kelly oubre jr. and kent bazemore while klay was still absent (who you make fun of atm) on the team but failed to make the playoffs that year after they had b2b losses in the play-ins. Just saying.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14767251]The funny thing is, Steph still averages 6-7 assists while making himself a defense-warping off-ball target. If someone wanted him to play 'traditional' so that some forum poster considers him a Point Guard, he could and he'd probably drop 8-10apg passing the ball from the top of the key to whoever gets open, but then you're planting him in front of the defense, and everyone can then better stick to the likes of Klay and Dray, making them less effective and the team easier to defend. All the while you're basically telling the greatest shooter the league has ever seen to not be the greatest shooter the league has ever seen, so he can play 'traditionally'. Why would any coach in his right mind do that??[/QUOTE]

Nobody would. His skill set is being used exactly how it should be. He's just not a traditional point guard - he has led the league is scoring twice right? Traditional PGs don't sniff that.

If you think about it nobody is traditional these days. Jokic isn't traditional, Giannis isn't traditional PF, saying LeBron was a SF is a joke when compared to other SFs of the past.

We're in positionless offensive basketball. We have 7 footersbeing the initiating playmaker all the way down to 6'2.

Whatever you want to frame a "PG" being there days, Lebron fits it. Therefore he's the best of his era over Curry.

Whatever "best" position you want to say, Lebron has been the best in this positionless era.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14767261]Nobody would. His skill set is being used exactly how it should be. [B]He's just not a traditional point guard[/B] - he has led the league is scoring twice right? Traditional PGs don't sniff that.

If you think about it nobody is traditional these days. Jokic isn't traditional, Giannis isn't traditional PF, saying LeBron was a SF is a joke when compared to other SFs of the past.

We're in positionless offensive basketball. We have 7 footersbeing the initiating playmaker all the way down to 6'2.

Whatever you want to frame a "PG" being there days, Lebron fits it. Therefore he's the best of his era over Curry.

Whatever "best" position you want to say, Lebron has been the best in this positionless era.[/QUOTE]

So maybe we should drop the concept of positions then. 5 players on the court, if the situation warrants it put the 6 footer in the post and the 7 footer at the top of the key directing the offense. It's a circular conversation at this point.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14766991]He's not a point guard. That's not his play style.

If you do consider him a point guard, then you must consider LeBron a point guard as well which would eliminate Curry from best point guard ever considering LeBron is at worst #2 all time overall as a player behind MJ.[/QUOTE]

Get a load of this clown :roll:

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14767245]He actually does, he's creating shots for others via his own off-ball movement instead of the 'traditional' way as you describe. Because he's inverted the methodology due to his own unique shooting gravity doesn't make it less so, it's just different and you seem hesitant to accept different. Have you seen Draymond without Steph? Dogshit. Lined up with Steph( and everyone else on the floor) and he gets looks he otherwise wouldn't because of the defense warping trying to stay on Steph's heels. And that's...not shot creation?

So no, not the end. The conversation goes on...[/QUOTE]

Great post ... could not have said it better!!

[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;14767256]Not top 5 sadly

Magic, Paul, Stockton, IT, West

Needing 7 games to beat the Kings doesn't move me. His game 4 choke still lingers[/QUOTE]


They won game 4 thanks TO Curry's 32/5/4 with a 65% TS. Ws victory against the Kings equals the number of all the series KD won with the nets :lol

What I wonder is where the idea that people like Kidd or Stockton are “traditional”. Who is the point guard prototype? Most of the first guys they even made the distinction for were bigtime scorers. Cousy led the nba in shot attempts. Oscar was a 30ppg player. Frazier was a 5-6 assists per game combo guard….so was Earl Monroe…and Dave Bing…Nate Archibald was a 34ppg player…

You get to the 80s and 90s there are Magic, Isiah, and Stockton sure but Magic played every position and was a 2 for his first 3-4 years…don’t know how that’s “pure”. People today think Isiah was a score first player(not that he was). Then you get Timmy, Kevin Johnson, Mark Price, Payton and so on…then there’s Kidd yes…with Marbury, Francis, Parker, Baron, Arenas and so on…there’s Paul…but with Westbrook, Deron, Steph, Kyrie, Dame….

You really go down the all time point guard list Kidd, Lenny Wilkens, Stockton, Rondo and mark jackson types are the exception not the rule. We are talking 20+ guys of the top 30 who were scorers more than bigtime playmakers.

So why is it considered “traditional”?

Because the worse players played that way?

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;14767562]What I wonder is where the idea that people like Kidd or Stockton are “traditional”. Who is the point guard prototype? Most of the first guys they even made the distinction for were bigtime scorers. Cousy led the nba in shot attempts. Oscar was a 30ppg player. Frazier was a 5-6 assists per game combo guard….so was Earl Monroe…and Dave Bing…Nate Archibald was a 34ppg player…

You get to the 80s and 90s there are Magic, Isiah, and Stockton sure but Magic played every position and was a 2 for his first 3-4 years…don’t know how that’s “pure”. People today think Isiah was a score first player(not that he was). Then you get Timmy, Kevin Johnson, Mark Price, Payton and so on…then there’s Kidd yes…with Marbury, Francis, Baron and so on…there’s Paul…but with Deron, Steph, Parker, Dame….

You really go down the all time point guard list Kidd, Stockton, Rondo and mark jackson types are the exception not the rule. We are talking 20+ guys of the top 30 who were scorers more than bigtime playmakers.

So why is it considered “traditional”?

Because the worse players played that way?[/QUOTE]

You expanded on it more than I did, but basically. Go down the list and all the big name points that come to mind played very differently, to the point of asking 'what is traditional?' is a vary valid question. Even going back 30 years which I imagine would be the reference point for a number of posters here, without even looking at the earlier pioneers like a Cousy or Clyde, most of the guys considered the top points like KJ, Hardaway, Price, Payton were all extremely important to their teams in terms of their individual scoring as well as setting the offense and table for everyone else. Stockton was the most notable one from that era that had seasons of higher assists than shot attempts. Gary Payton in contrast had seasons where he was shooting 20 times a night, both at one time or another were considered the 'best PG' and I don't recall there being discussion about which was more or less traditional.