How good is the case for peak Magic and Bird over peak Lebron?

[QUOTE=dankok8;14931065]I never said I believe that. I see Lebron as well ahead of Magic on defense and that's based on my eye test. But evaluating defense is so subjective and there is very few meaningful metrics especially before tracking starting in 2013-14. So the low and high end valuations of defense can be very far apart.

My point is that someone who is very low on Lebron's defense and rates him as a slightly positive while rating Magic as a neutral defender could have Magic ahead if they consider Magic as definitely better on offense.

Of course if you're very high on Lebron's defense then there's probably zero case for Magic.[/QUOTE]

a person that low on Lebrons defense AND rates Magic a tier above him on offense probably isn't worth having the debate with tbh.

Bird aint losing to 2011 Mavs!..........ever

Magic aint losing to 2011 Mavs!........ever

Bird aint losing to 2014 SAS........ever

Magic aint losing to 2014 SAS......ever

If Magic broke against Dr J-Moses-cheeks led 1981-1983 Sixers 1-1, its because sixers were that solid with fully front court loaded.

If Bird broke against 1984-1987 LAL, 1-2, its because LAL were marginally better because of better front court loading.

Bird took care of 1986 Akeem-Ralph twin towers in no time.

Magic took care of business against 1988 pistons too in no time.

LBJ broke 1-2 against Duncan.

LBJ broke 1-1 against Kawhi. lucky for Ray Allen. LBJ was shyting at the very sight of Claw.

LBJ broke 1-3 against Curry. lol. Curry out of all players. LBJ should've easily dominated.

LBJ aint Top 5 GOATs ever. Magic and Bird are.

whether you like it or not.

[QUOTE=gengiskhan;14931246]D-duh-uhh-uhh-uhhh-uhhhh!!![/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14931203]a person that low on Lebrons defense AND rates Magic a tier above him on offense probably isn't worth having the debate with tbh.[/QUOTE]

Ben Taylor from Thinking Basketball who is a way more serious basketball analyst than almost everyone here has Magic a tier ahead of Lebron on offense. He still has Lebron's peak higher overall because of defense.

[QUOTE=dankok8;14931351]Ben Taylor from Thinking Basketball who is a way more serious basketball analyst than almost everyone here has Magic a tier ahead of Lebron on offense. He still has Lebron's peak higher overall because of defense.[/QUOTE]

That's great, love his work but his opinion doesn't change mine. [B]And[/B] he doesn't have Lebron [B][I]that[/I][/B] low on defense apparently, so bringing him up to support half your point doesn't really do much for me. I said a person that holds [B]both[/B] of those viewpoints together isn't somebody worth debating imo.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14931359]That's great, love his work but his opinion doesn't change mine. [B]And[/B] he doesn't have Lebron [B][I]that[/I][/B] low on defense apparently, so bringing him up to support half your point doesn't really do much for me. I said a person that holds [B]both[/B] of those viewpoints together isn't somebody worth debating imo.[/QUOTE]

Why would that be?

Both individually are reasonable views so why wouldn't it be reasonable having both views together...

Either way, we both agree that Lebron peaked higher than Magic.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14931359]That's great, love his work but his opinion doesn't change mine. [B]And[/B] he doesn't have Lebron [B][I]that[/I][/B] low on defense apparently, so bringing him up to support half your point doesn't really do much for me. I said a person that holds [B]both[/B] of those viewpoints together isn't somebody worth debating imo.[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty confident Ben Taylor has LeBron's defensive peak above MJ's, considering how much he picked apart MJ's defense during his peak project.

And I would like a quote of Ben Taylor ranking Magic's offense ahead of LeBron's. The only thing I remember is him saying Magic has a strong case of being the greatest offensive player ever because of the ATG offenses he ran. He didn't compare their offenses head to head.

Peak Lebron was either 2009 (loser) or 2013 (carried, 25 ppg)

Peak Bird was a winner that carried the load (84')

[QUOTE=3ba11;14931363]Peak Lebron was either 2009 (loser) or 2013 (carried, 25 ppg)

Peak Bird was a winner that carried the load (84')[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Lebron wasn’t even better than the Orlando Magic

(When Lebron lost to Dwight’s Magic in 09 they also were missing their All-Star point guard Jameer Nelson due to injury and were forced to use an And1 player at pg)

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14931365][B]Yeah, Lebron wasn’t even better than the Orlando Magic [/B]

(When Lebron lost to Dwight’s Magic in 09 they also were missing their All-Star point guard Jameer Nelson due to injury and were forced to use an And1 player at pg)[/QUOTE]

What a statement :lol

Legacy wise little to no case. Basketball playing wise depends on what you’re looking for. Just building a basketball team without knowing the rules of the era or who else I would have? I would take bird First over the other two by a hair. Give me the specific situation I can take any of the three. The league rules and team are a huge factor.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14931366]What a statement :lol[/QUOTE]
He was better than the 73 win Warriors though.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14931366]What a statement :lol[/QUOTE]


[INDENT]09' Mo Will vs #4 SRS Magic....... 18 on 38%...... #3 team defense........ lost

89' Pippen' vs #1 SRS Cavs........ 15 on 40%..... #11 team defense....... won
97' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Heat........ 16 on 39%....... #4 team defense....... won
98' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Pacers'..... 17 on 39%....... #9 team defense....... won
98' Pippen' vs #3 SRS Jazz......... 16 on 41%....... #9 team defense....... won

96-98' Pippen entire playoffs....... 18 on 41%...... #1, #4, #9 defenses[/INDENT]


^^^ Jordan beat better teams than the 09' Magic with less help on both sides of the ball

Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team w/ weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick (never carried weak help over top teams).. He's too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams and therefore needs all-time scoring help

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14931372]He was better than the 73 win Warriors though.[/QUOTE]


If Stockton outplayed MVP Jordan then Malone would've beaten the Bulls easily

Anyone will win if their sidekick outplays the league MVP

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14931372]He was better than the 73 win Warriors though.[/QUOTE]

Kyrie outplayed UMVP Curry.

Lebron outplayed... Harrison Barnes.

:roll: