Dennis Rodman: How good was he actually at his best?

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14965137]He's criminally underrated if players like Dale Davis or PJ Brown are being seen as viable alternatives. Neither one of those guys were the passer or had the natural feel for the game that Rodman had, on top of being much less versatile defenders and worse rebounders. Rodman psychologically could take players out of games in a way those guys never could. That's like saying if you replace Reggie Miller with Kevin Martin or Monta Eiis they'd take the Pacers just as far.[/QUOTE]

I said they would have won half the rings he won which about 2-3 rings which not unreasonable given how talented the teams he played in

[QUOTE=Reggie43;14965138]I said they would have won half the rings he won which about 2-3 rings which not unreasonable given how talented the teams he played in[/QUOTE]

Which years? Because even saying they'd win half still comes off as devaluing Rodman to like a notch above guys who were basically journey-man level defensive bigs. They had their utilities but not even in the same stratosphere to casually namedrop them in a conversation about Dennis Rodman.

[video=youtube_share;bdTeqzrP0xg]https://youtu.be/bdTeqzrP0xg[/video]

Rodman in his last 2 years with the Bulls was not that much better than the guys I mentioned. Dale Davis arguably outplayed him when they matched up in the playoffs in 98 which is one of the reasons they pushed it to seven games

Rodman blows them out of the water peak for peak but in those years they were on the same tier because Rodman was obviously past his prime

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14965137]He's criminally underrated if players like Dale Davis or PJ Brown are being seen as viable alternatives. Neither one of those guys were the passer or had the natural feel for the game that Rodman had, on top of being much less versatile defenders and worse rebounders. Rodman psychologically could take players out of games in a way those guys never could. That's like saying if you replace Reggie Miller with Kevin Martin or Monta Eiis they'd take the Pacers just as far.[/QUOTE]

Well Horace Grant won 3 with Chicago and the Bulls followed that with Rodman's 3. So, that's at least the level of Dale Davis.

[QUOTE=Reggie43;14965141]Rodman in his last 2 years with the Bulls was not that much better than the guys I mentioned. Dale Davis arguably outplayed him when they matched up in the playoffs in 98 which is one of the reasons they pushed it to seven games[/QUOTE]

We have this habit of just swapping players hypothetically in and out of scenarios with no real idea how those players will adapt, team chemistry or otherwise. They're different players with very specific skillsets that don't necessarily bring about the same outcome with a simple swap. How they played against each other in 98 doesn't really matter in that sense.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;14965143]Well Horace Grant won 3 with Chicago and the Bulls followed that with Rodman's 3. So, that's at least the level of Dale Davis.[/QUOTE]

Horace Grant was better than Dale Davis. As was Rodman, for different reasons. Alot of people think Rodman was the 96 finals MVP. As close or as far off from reality as they may be, there's no way Dale Davis or PJ Brown is impacting the series at that level to warrant such talk.

Not that hard to imagine Jordan and Pippen winning 2 rings with Dale Davis in 97 and 98

[QUOTE=Reggie43;14965141]Rodman in his last 2 years with the Bulls was not that much better than the guys I mentioned. Dale Davis arguably outplayed him when they matched up in the playoffs in 98 which is one of the reasons they pushed it to seven games[/QUOTE]

Agreed, Dale Davis was better than Rodman at that point, significantly so.

Lol. Ya'll have a good Christmas. I just realized I'm here debating between 1998 Dennis Rodman and Dale fukking Davis when I should be deep into a bottle of Port at this point. Have a good one, ISH fam

When it comes to Rodman he lays claims to these things:

Arguably the best defensive player ever
The most versatile defender ever
Likely the best rebounder ever.

At his best you are getting these three elements with Rodman. When it comes to top 75 status, he CERTAINLY BELONGS!! Two time DPOY, seven rebounding titles, 8 All Defensive Teams, and five rings on top of it makes him EASILY WORTHY of top 75 status. And despite ONLY averaging 7.3 PPG for his career, you can't have a top 75 list WITHOUT the greatest rebounder, most versatile defender, and arguably the best defensive forward ever.

Plus Rodman was a freak athlete on top of it with an all time great motor to boot. Frankly he's DAMN NEAR a 1 of 1 type of player. The defensive versatility to defend every position while ALSO leading the league in rebounding is hella rare. Only other player to do that was KG in the modern era. BUT KG was 7'0. And we have seen guys kind of similar to him in that regard such as Giannis and AD.

Rodman was 6'7-6'8. NO PLAYER his size has come close to having that type of defensive ability, defensive versatility, and rebounding in one package. Ben Wallace was likely the closest BUT I didn't see Ben defending EVERY POSITION the way Rodman was. Rodman started in the league as a SF. Wallace was always an undersized C-PF type. Draymond doesn't have the rebounding ability. Same with an AK-47, Pippen, or Bobby Jones for that matter.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14965149]Lol. Ya'll have a good Christmas. I just realized I'm here debating between 1998 Dennis Rodman and Dale fukking Davis when I should be deep into a bottle of Port at this point. Have a good one, ISH fam[/QUOTE]

Merry Christmas, already over here in Europe :lol

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14965139]Which years? Because even saying they'd win half still comes off as devaluing Rodman to like a notch above guys who were basically journey-man level defensive bigs. They had their utilities but not even in the same stratosphere to casually namedrop them in a conversation about Dennis Rodman.[/QUOTE]

DAMN RIGHT!!! The thing with PF's like Horace,PJ Brown, and D Davis is THE FACT they weren't ALL TIME GREAT for their position at scoring, passing, rebounding, or defense. Rodman was ALL TIME GREAT HELL ARGUABLY THE GOAT at rebounding, defensive ability, and defensive versatility. So sure Horace could get 15 PPG and 10-11 RPG. And provider all league D. But Rodman could totally shift a game in ways guys like Horace, PJ, and D Davis never could.

Rodman vs Grant
From 91-93 Grant played in 236 of 246 games
From 96-98 Rodman played in 199 of 246 games.

91-93 Bulls won 185 games total
96-98 Bulls won 203 games total.