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[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14984804]Embiid got knocked out of the playoffs in his peak by a 22-year-old Trae in a game 7 while at home.[/QUOTE]
Who is claiming Embiid is top 4 though? Jokic fans are going totally overboard for a guy who's godawful at defense.
How the **** did Minnesota win that Game 7 with Antman scoring only 16 points on 24 shots.
He shot 25% from the field and 20% from 3. 32 TS%. Absolute disaster.
:biggums:
How did the Wolves win that game? I admittedly didn't watch it.
jokic plays negative defense, a lot of the assists he got last night weren't legit ones either, player took multiple dribbles or made their own shot, it was home treatment.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14984804]Embiid got knocked out of the playoffs in his peak by a 22-year-old Trae in a game 7 while at home.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, Mask's criteria isnt really doing his guy any favors. If Jokic isnt all time great for not having x amount of this or that... then Embiid must be literally the worst all star level center to ever play.
It's just a game they cant win. When you keep rooting for a losing cause, you will keep taking L's. Rooting against Jokic is like rooting against Lebron. Be prepared for a lot of bitterness. Theyre gonna keep succeeding, while your existence is going to be pain.
[QUOTE=Keno;14984808]jokic plays negative defense, a lot of the assists he got last night weren't legit ones either, player took multiple dribbles or made their own shot, it was home treatment.[/QUOTE]
I agree they probably werent all valid assists. The record really doesnt matter. But anyone who cant see how impactful a player Jokic is, is probably trying not to look.
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984732]Get Hakeem out of there bro. The others are fine.
Jokic has had the least amount of help by quite a bit out of these players, and it's magnified even more by him playing the the modern era where teams have a lot more flexibility to improve their rosters.[/QUOTE]
Jokic is great but you're smoking dope with Hakeem lol. Hakeem had elite 2 way impact on a game. Joker for all his offensive brilliance would be some ways down the list of the goat centers defensively. As far as him being the 4th best ever? On my list a guy that isn't a great defender at some point cant get past 5. I can't see a route to rate guys with relatively one way impact above 2 way all timers. Magic, Curry, Bird, and Joker fit this category for me personally.
[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14984816]Jokic is great but you're smoking dope with Hakeem lol. Hakeem had elite 2 way impact on a game. Joker for all his offensive brilliance would be some ways down the list of the goat centers defensively. As far as him being the 4th best ever? On my list a guy that isn't a great defender at some point cant get past 5. I can't see a route to rate guys with relatively one way impact above 2 way all timers. Magic, Curry, Bird, and Joker fit this category for me personally.[/QUOTE]
Jokic makes up for his lack of defense with his passing and shooting. Just like Jokic could never dream of having the defensive impact of Hakeem, Hakeem could never dream of dropping 20+ dimes in a game or averaging 10+ in general. Past that scoring and rebounding are similar for them. So it evens out. Both all time great peaks.
Is this due to the game he had last night? If so, Wilt did this routinely.
There's a game Wilt apparently had 53 points; 32 rebounds; 24 blocks; 14 assist and 11 steals.
[QUOTE=tpols;14984817]Jokic makes up for his lack of defense with his passing and shooting. Just like Jokic could never dream of having the defensive impact of Hakeem, Hakeem could never dream of dropping 20+ dimes in a game or averaging 10+ in general. Past that scoring and rebounding are similar for them. So it evens out. Both all time great peaks.[/QUOTE] You are saying that one aspect of offense is just as important as the whole category of defense when defense is half the game. Prime example of how the importance of defense is underrated. Should Olajuwon get extra credit for averaging several more blocks or is that just one aspect of defense?
[QUOTE=tpols;14984817]Jokic makes up for his lack of defense with his passing and shooting. Just like Jokic could never dream of having the defensive impact of Hakeem, Hakeem could never dream of dropping 20+ dimes in a game or averaging 10+ in general. Past that scoring and rebounding are similar for them. So it evens out. Both all time great peaks.[/QUOTE]
Was a different game, centers weren't playing in the same spots on the court. But Hakeem was a one man no fly zone on the defensive end while being the go to guy on offense. No 90s center was gonna consistently get 10 dimes with the style of play back then. That said, watching the mid 90s Rockets Olajuwon created all the outside looks for the team just by being a truck load down low and in the mid post. His passing was pretty good for a big but the archetypes for position weren't going to allow him to play anything like Joker lol. However, there's nothing keeping Joker from playing like him defensively aside from ability lol.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984821]You are saying that one aspect of offense is just as important as the whole category of defense when defense is half the game. Prime example of how the importance of defense is underrated. Should Olajuwon get extra credit for averaging several more blocks or is that just one aspect of defense?[/QUOTE]
:applause:
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;14984820]Is this due to the game he had last night? If so, Wilt did this routinely.
P
There's a game Wilt apparently had 53 points; 32 rebounds; 24 blocks; 14 assist and 11 steals.[/QUOTE]Possible but someone would have had to assign the blocks in retrospect because Wilt, Russell and others played before blocks were counted as an official stat. That's why Olajuwon has the all-time record instead of one of those two.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14984726]Imo these guys are in the true GOAT tier peak
Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
Wilt
Jokic
I'm not sure where I'd rank Jokic amongst these guys yet, but I agree with OP that he belongs.[/QUOTE]
LeBron is not on that list. Jokic has more triple doubles in half the time. Jokic won without a true all star.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984821]You are saying that one aspect of offense is just as important as the whole category of defense when defense is half the game. Prime example of how the importance of defense is underrated. Should Olajuwon get extra credit for averaging several more blocks or is that just one aspect of defense?[/QUOTE]
Jokics offensive capability is higher than Hakeems. Not only ģs he a better and more efficient scorer, his passing is so GOAT it elevates the team offense to elite rank where as Hakeem never did that.
Šenver Nuggets are 2nd best offense in the league right now. 1994 and 1995 peak Hakeem led the 15th and 7th ranked offenses which is mid for playoff team. He wasn't a great passer. Just a great 1v1 iso scorer. Being able to dime at Yolks level unlocks a totally different team ceiling.
And we've seen that over and over.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14984824]Possible but someone would have had to assign the blocks in retrospect because Wilt, Russell and others played before blocks were counted as an official stat. That's why Olajuwon has the all-time record instead of one of those two.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention the way assists are counted now has changed massively compared to the 60s so with today's bean counters Wilt may have had some 30 20 20s or 50 20 20s.