Was Hakeem Olajuwon's post-up game a little overrated?

Also, the 1995 NBA Finals H2H duel between post-up greats was largely a wash. dankok stat-tracked the 4 games a year ago; this was his analysis:

[QUOTE]For much of the series, the two men guarded each other. In fact, for most of the time they were on the floor, they were matched up unless one of them was in foul trouble. In those instances, Orlando used Horace Grant on Hakeem and Houston used Charles Jones on Shaq. On a few possessions, both Hakeem and Shaq were switched onto other smaller players who contested them.

Apart from shooting, the tracking also includes fouls drawn and turnovers but I only included turnovers caused by the other player. For example, if Hakeem drew a charge on Shaq or stripped Shaq of the ball, I counted those but if Shaq threw a bad pass that got intercepted by Kenny Smith, I didn't count that.



Game 1: Orlando 118 - 120 Houston (OT)

Shaq: +6 ON, -8 OFF
Hakeem: -7 ON, +9 OFF

When Both ON: Orlando 90 - 77 Houston

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 19 points, 7/12 shooting, 5/7 FT, 4 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Hakeem: 19 points, 8/17 shooting, 3/5 FT, 3 fouls drawn, 1 turnover



Game 2: Orlando 106 - 117 Houston

Shaq: -3 ON, -8 OFF
Hakeem: +5 ON, +6 OFF

When Both ON: Orlando 92 - 93 Houston

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 18 points, 8/15 shooting, 2/2 FT, 2 fouls drawn, 1 turnover
Hakeem: 18 points, 8/19 shooting, 2/5 FT, 3 fouls drawn, 0 turnovers



Game 3: Houston 106 - 103 Orlando

Shaq: +1 ON, -4 OFF
Hakeem: +4 ON, -1 OFF

When Both ON: Houston 96 - 95 Orlando

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 23 points, 10/16 shooting, 3/4 FT, 4 fouls drawn, 1 turnover
Hakeem: 16 points, 7/20 shooting, 2/3 FT, 2 fouls drawn, 0 turnovers



Game 4: Houston 113 - 101 Orlando

Shaq: -16 ON +4 OFF
Hakeem: +15 ON -3 OFF

When Both ON: Houston 106 - 87 Orlando

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 18 points, 9/16 shooting, 0/0 FT, 3 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Hakeem: 17 points, 7/17 shooting, 2/2 FT, 2 fouls drawn, 2 turnovers *one 3pt make



Series Summary

Scoring Margin: Houston +28

Shaq: -12 ON -16 OFF
Hakeem: +17 ON +11 OFF

When Both ON: Houston +7

Per 100 Possessions

Shaq ON: 111.8 ORtg, 115.2 DRtg, -3.4 Net Rtg
Hakeem ON: 115.3 ORtg, 110.5 DRtg, +4.8 Net Rtg

Shaq OFF: 89.3 ORtg, 136.9 DRtg, -47.6 Net Rtg
Hakeem OFF: 134.9 ORtg, 104.0 DRtg, +30.9 Net Rtg

Shaq ON-OFF: +44.2 Net Rtg
Hakeem ON-OFF: -26.1 Net Rtg



Series Totals - Man Defense

Hakeem
Defended by Shaq: 70 points, 44.0 %TS (30/73 FG, 9/15 FT), 10 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Defended by Grant: 42 points, 62.6 %TS (18/30 FG, 6/8 FT), 4 fouls drawn, 2 turnovers
Defended by Others/Undefended: 19 points, 66.3 %TS (8/13 FG, 3/3 FT), 4 fouls drawn

Shaq
Defended by Hakeem: 78 points, 59.3 %TS (34/60 FG, 10/13 FT), 13 fouls drawn, 8 turnovers
Defended by Jones: 19 points, 60.4 %TS (6/10 FG, 7/13 FT), 8 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Defended by Others/Undefended: 15 points, 67.9 %TS (4/4 FG, 7/16 FT), 9 fouls drawn



Conclusions:

In the direct matchup, Shaq got the better of Hakeem scoring more on much higher efficiency and drawing more fouls on the other. Although Hakeem forced more turnovers on Shaq than vice versa, it's hard to say that Hakeem didn't lose the matchup.

it was a contrast of styles with Shaq overwhelming Hakeem with raw strength and athleticism and Hakeem getting the better of Shaq in face up situations beating him off the dribble and with his jukes, spins, and dream shakes.

As for who was the better overall player in the series, I'd probably call it a wash. Hakeem dominated when defended by Horace Grant who is a really good defender more so than Shaq dominated Charles Jones. Hakeem also had an edge in overall team defense although Shaq was quite good in this area himself. Shaq not only did a great job defending Hakeem but he blocked more shots than Olajuwon in the series and was very active defensively.

Ultimately the play of these two monsters isn't what determined the series. Excluding Drexler and Penny who in my opinion also played each other close to a draw, the supporting cast of the Rockets completely outplayed that of Orlando. Anderson after infamously missing the four free throws at the end of regulation in Game 1 was shook and never the same afterwards. Dennis Scott's shooting was off all series and he gave the team virtually nothing as well and since Anderson and Scott averaged around 40 mpg, that hurt the Magic a lot. On the other hand, the likes of Horry, Cassell, Elie and Kenny Smith were amazingly clutch, devastating in transition and shot the lights out from 3pt range. It was the Rockets' role players that won this series.[/QUOTE]

You wanna go one on one with the great one in a misleading clip off? You know I’ll make this the rest of my day. I have that little to do when it’s hot out and I’m actually at home.

I’ll make Kevin McHale the poster boy for the next “We done with the 90s!” trend And only you guys will know that I didn’t mean it.

Kblaze where do you land on the Hakeem/Shaq debate?

Hakeem was a better total basketball player But that doesn’t mean he was more effective than Shaq at his peak for any number of reasons. Who I would take depends on the situation. It’s close enough that I can’t get mad at either choice. I do believe I would take Hakeem for right now but right now is a really small slice of history

Hakeem was a better total basketball player But that doesn’t mean he was more effective than Shaq at his peak for any number of reasons. Who I would take depends on the situation. It’s close enough that I can’t get mad at either choice. I do believe I would take Hakeem for right now but right now is a really small slice of history

Hakeem would certainly be better off in this era on both ends. The spacing would allow him to get to the rim more and on defense he would be the perfect big that can protect the rim and defend guards on switches.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;15019375]Hakeem was a better total basketball player But that doesn’t mean he was more effective than Shaq at his peak for any number of reasons. Who I would take depends on the situation. It’s close enough that I can’t get mad at either choice. I do believe I would take Hakeem for right now but right now is a really small slice of history[/QUOTE]

Interesting. I only asked because I enjoyed your posts and it looked like you had a lot of perspective when it came to Hakeem. Having said that I don't know if I agree. It's very close I'm with you on that but think I can make a better case for Dream.

Shaq was more effective in his spot but he was more limited outside of it. Dream on the other hand could score in a more variety of ways and could also shoot free throws better when it counted. That on top of his defensive superiority and emotional maturity.

You said it depends on the situation. I'm curious, in what situation would you rather have Shaq on your team?

Not at all, Dream could operate and be effective from anywhere in the post in his prime. Perhaps the most complete post arsenal well ever see. He wasn't as willing a passer in his early career but became very good at passing out of doubles, I wanna say those rockets were the 1st to surround an elite paint threat with shooting and make you pick your poison. Low Post, Mid post and even occasionally from the high post. His efficiency might be a similar argument to Kobes perimeter game....complete bag but sometimes consists of less gimme buckets. He had every shot, hooks, fades, counters and at his best counters for your counters up to several times in the same possession. Think the post equivalent of Kyries handles.

Playing 4 out around hakeem was certainly the latest evolvement in the game at the time.

[url]https://hickamsdictum.com/the-g-o-a-t-who-is-the-best-basketball-player-of-all-time-e43c7e53a9a7[/url]

[QUOTE=tontoz;15019080]Thats why i specifically mentioned offense. He actually took a lot of jumpers and wasn't that good at making them. It is like he became a better offensive player after he retired and people forgot that he was frequently a black hole that bricked a lot of jumpers.

He won 1 MVP in his career and was top 3 only twice. I see people on here saying he is top 10 all time and i don't see it.[/QUOTE]

We can't track data prior to 1997, but the last good years for him were 1997-99. From 10-16ft and 16-29ft, Hakeem shot 44% and 46%. Lookup Ewing and Robinson's numbers those same years and he shot better.

Robinson: 36%/43%
Ewing: 41%/43%

So what's Hakeem doing in his peak years? In the years mentioned, his FG% was 50.5%. From '93-'96 (peak years), his FG% was 52.5%.

[QUOTE=Carbine;15019081]It's because of his two post season runs, one of which was one of the biggest carry jobs of all time. He is one of the only players to have a claim as best offensive and best defensive player during his peak.

The players who played against him revere him. The players who played with him, perhaps even more so.

Robert Sorry "Hakeem is 100 times the player Tim was"

He played with both, at or near their peaks.[/QUOTE]

Why do people rely only on those 2 years, as if Hakeem was not a statistical juggernaut before then? Here's Hakeem's stat-line prior to 1994:

Hakeem PS '85-'93: [B]26/13/3/2/4 on 54% [/B]

I'm genuinely curious, how many players from that era were doing this not named Michael Jordan?

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;15020802]We can't track data prior to 1997, but the last good years for him were 1997-99. From 10-16ft and 16-29ft, Hakeem shot 44% and 46%. Lookup Ewing and Robinson's numbers those same years and he shot better.

Robinson: 36%/43%
Ewing: 41%/43%

So what's Hakeem doing in his peak years? In the years mentioned, his FG% was 50.5%. From '93-'96 (peak years), his FG% was 52.5%.[/QUOTE]



*yawn*

Hakeem's career best TS was 57.7%. Barkley's career average was 61.2% in spite of bricking 3s.

[QUOTE=tontoz;15020806]*yawn*

Hakeem's career best TS was 57.7%. Barkley's career average was 61.2% in spite of bricking 3s.[/QUOTE]

Tim Duncan's highest was 57.9%. Giannis' career TS% is 61.1%. Who has better post moves?

Magic's TS% is 61%, Kyrie's is 58%...who has the bigger bag?

Kobe's TS% is 55%. Allen's is higher at 58%. Who has the bigger bag?

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;15021172]Tim Duncan's highest was 57.9%. Giannis' career TS% is 61.1%. Who has better post moves?

Magic's TS% is 61%, Kyrie's is 58%...who has the bigger bag?

Kobe's TS% is 55%. Allen's is higher at 58%. Who has the bigger bag?[/QUOTE]

Exactly this.